19 hours ago, Yojimbo said:

As the Wheel of Time turns, so are the days of our lives.

 

For the win.

I had the realization yesterday that the show was made to be a soap opera.  The cinematography, the dialogue, the focus on sex, the nonsense melodrama.  What we're seeing isn't "Game of Thrones TV" - it's daytime soap TV.  This begs the question.... who do they think is their target audience?  It's clearly not on par with other fantasy tv shows... yet, it's hard to imagine the drama and romance is in enough to interest non-fantasy lovers (while fantasy fans are probably more confused and unimpressed than not).  It seems such an odd way to invest in such an epic series.  I'm seriously doubting if the creators and writers actually read the books.  It's ok for things to change - yes, it's an "adaptation" - but it would've been swell if they had at least understood the source material.

This episode is what I've been waiting for.  Great first scene... I finally thought, "It got good". 

Like the Serenity Prayer says, I've accepted the things I can't change - accepted that the characters and storylines have been changed from the book, in a direction I wouldn't personally choose.  And having come to terms - paired with a powerful episode with a lot of canon material - I'm feeling a fondness and hope for the next episode and season.  Also, I realized that even though Rafe is from the US, I think I'm watching more of a European-produced show through my eyes of an American, and that may have been part of the difficulty I was having in seeing it as it was intended.  There are some cultural differences between the US and Europe that had clouded some of my vision.  I had a swell of emotion during the recap, seeing Suian apparently in love with Moiraine.  Obviously, this wasn't a part of the books, but since she is a prominent character, I think they could do her justice.  I've got to stay on this wave of not getting my hopes up and keeping my expectations low.  Their romance and arc is so far more believable and likeable than Rand and Egwene's - again, who never really were that intimate in the books.

This episode's highlights, for me:

Tigraine/Shaiel.  Eff' yeah, Maiden of the Spear!  Young Tam was great.

Min!  Her energy is there - I am excited for more of her. 

It's more clear now that Moiraine doesn't really know what she thinks she does - a parting from how I perceived her in the books, but makes the episodes make more sense, since up til now, I more or less thought she was framing the narrative as truth. 

Daniel Henney... damn, son, well acted and what a hunk.  Great tenderness and tension in his scenes.  I think he is my new favorite character on the show.  Lan's backstory got some time, we learned about Bukama, and we got a bit of Borderlander culture.

Still wishing these elements were stronger:

Rand having better lines, and not being such a whiney baby (until the end of this episode, at least.  I liked his final scene)

I like the portrayal of Perrin but he needs more lines.  And... he loves Egwene?  Come on.

Nynaeve being more angry and less nervous/insecure.  Also, I liked that the EF5 all, I assumed, start off as virgins and inexperienced.  In the show, they are no longer puritanical about their sexuality, but I'm accepting this as one of the changes the producers wanted.  It's not canon, but it's typical of "Hollywood".

Machin Shin was not nearly as terrifying (originally with its talk of licking the sweet blood and screams and whatnot).  I get why they changed it, but hearing one's own doubts isn't nearly as scary as being turned insane by a bloodthirsty lunatic swell of voices.

Best episode yet, for me, and psyched for the season finale next week!

15 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

Episode 6 gets a solid 8 stars on IMDB. Your hope that the show will be a dismal failure is simply not materializing.

I don't think this is fair at all.  Just because some of express disappointment with choices made for each episode does NOT indicate we hope it will fail.  In fact, I think the opposite is true.  I, for one, hope it will get better.  I want to see this series adapted into a well thought out tv series.  I very much want the whole book series to be adapted.  I wonder why some people feel so defensive of negative criticism for the show.  The book is fiction and the critiques are legit.  It's not personal.  There is some good and some bad.  We have different opinions, that hopefully we can respect.  I like reading people's perspectives that are different than mine.  It would be boring as hell if we all agreed all the time.

34 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Then again, you're slipping in jabs at Maksim and Ihvon for no reason so I think I can read where that goes.  Love the idea that you want good LGBT+ representation but the idea that it's just part of who they are and not really dwelled on is somehow bad.

 

To be clear, it isn't for no reason.  I don't like my community being used as a superficial trope, again, for the purpose of throwing in some sex or "scandal" into an asexual book.  It's like banging two trash can lids together - trying to engage the viewer by throwing it in their face.  Make it worthwhile.  It very much feels like so far, gay, lesbian, and bisexual characters - my community, who I feel protective of - are being used to score shock value points.  It comes off as tokenism.  Subtlety is an art that so far seems to be lacking.  I understand this may go over many people's heads.  But please don't misinterpret this as homophobia. 

Hey look - it's Basel Gill!!  Wonder what the hell he is doing in Tar Valon?  Opening a new inn??

Liandrin may have a boyfriend - or more likely a male Darkfriend.  But really, would Moiraine let something that serious pass.  Liandrin/Elaida hates men.  I wish the writers would stop being so uncreatively off canon.  Original content is fine, just don't make it rubbish.

Siuan "exiles" Moiraine, punishing her with getting the freedom to continue to do what she was already doing for 20 years, without having to answer to anyone.  Is this a foreshadowing of the beginning of Siuan's upcoming storyline?  I did like the scene of the Aes Sedai turning their backs on her - but Siuan's sentence is so easy to see through, that it's obviously not really a punishment.  Hard to believe the Hall would not see right through this.  Being exiled to a farm, however, would have been more believable. 

Siuan and Moiraine are in love with each other (at least Siuan), and care more about sexy time than checking in about what they've focused everything on for the last 20 years.  It just felt real cheap.  Couldn't we have just gotten a conversation about them having been pillowfriends 20 years ago?  Why not show some lesbian sex scenes between the Reds while we're at it?  It does a disservice to the series.  Maybe they're bi, or pansexual, since we know they both like men in the books.  I'd love some good queer representation - not cuddling bisexual warders, or made for TV one-liners just for the sake of throwing some sex into a largely asexual book.  It's just not quality.

Siuan rows a boat with a pole from Tear to Tar Valon.  LOL!  Bye Dad, good luck now that you literally have nothing left!  Hope you can untangle your net.  They obviously rushed the writing of this series beyond redemption.  I almost feel bad for Rafe, except that he made such big bucks off it.

Loial looks like the Burger King, and it's still not clear at all why he is there.  Yes, he had better play a role in the next episode in the Ways.  I can't get over his clunky goofy appearance.  He's 3 inches taller than Rand instead of 3 feet.  Just a large person, not ogre-like (and certainly nothing close to being mistaken for even a puny Trolloc).  He looks like he belongs in The Neverending Story from the 80s (Rockbiter's little brother).  Just.... wtf.

The possibility of a "many headed Dragon" - and how exactly did Lews Therin reincarnate into multiple people in the same lifetime?  Adding this nonsense just convolutes what's already confusing.

I'll keep watching.  Sorta like watching a trainwreck.  I do sincerely hope that non-readers are enjoying it.  Episode 4 was the only one I didn't wish would hurry up and end before making it worse.

What an awesome gift!

My first thought was to illustrate the moment Rand busts out of the chest/cage, with the flows/knots on his shield being smashed, like broken glass.  Maybe with his banners in the background.

Seeing him still inside the cage is pretty bleak, not something I personally would want to look at for more than a second.  You could read the chapter, it's about 20 pages long (the last before the epilogue).  There are a lot of moments that'd make for a great illustration, depending on who you want to draw (i.e. Perrin and Loial, Min, the Wise Ones, the Asha'man). 

1 hour ago, Gothic Flame said:

We knew because Jeff Bezos said he wanted his own Game of Thrones

Very true that Bezos wanted "his own" GOT (barf). 

But even if he had never said so, the comparisons and the notion of WOT being  "The next Game of Thrones" was inevitable.  Bezos saying so was him just stating the obvious.

14 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Yep it is innocent, until Mat starts bedding a women in every town, the rapes start, the Perrin Faille BDSM relationship begins, the orgies and the sex are not in your face but it is all there. I always felt that 3 nearly 20 year old boys who where that inept around women made no real sense, especially considering Rand ends up in a poly situation and Mat has a women in every town. As a story I have been told (not read GOT) that WOT contains as much sex and raunch as GOT it was the tv show that made it that graphic.

GOT, both in the books and tv show, is more like an X-rated WOT, with WOT being rated PG.  WOT has maybe 5% (if that) the amount of sex, raunch, and sexual violence as GOT.  They're a bit closer in straight up gore and violence.  The books (A Song of Ice and Fire) are incredibly graphic - but it's true that the show chose to focus a lot more on that instead of fleshing out the characters and their dialogue (like most books to tv adaptations are guilty of).

Some things can be read between the lines, but I find some of your summaries to be overstating.  Mat kissing, cuddling, dancing with, or dandling women on his knee doesn't necessarily mean he is having sex with them.  I can only think of 2 or 3 women in the whole series where it's made clear they're lovers.  I also don't find it at all a stretch of the imagination that 3 young men from a flyspeck village (where people are beaten for having sex out of wedlock) don't have much experience with women (hence Perrin ending up married to a passive aggressive, immature and jealous wife - what basis of comparison does he have?). 

We knew the Game of Thrones comparisons would be inevitable, which is unfortunate, because aside from being fantasy series with devoted followings, the series are pretty different, in content, writing styles, realism, and levels of nihilism, and the sense that things will turn out ok.  Even though WOT is considered "adult fiction", it's closer to Harry Potter in that innocent feeling of good triumphing over evil, rather than Game of Thrones/SOIAF, with it's brutal portrayals of sexual violence (sadly much more realistic in that sense) and tragic storylines for most of the characters.

I think it's basically a less than conventional theme thrown in to make the whole story a little more interesting.

I thought his relationship with Min was the only real plausible one.  I like that RJ included alternative relationship styles, and in a way, Rand having 3 wives/partners feels less cliche than having 2, like if it had been just Min and say, Aviendha.  I also would've liked to see more poly relationships outside of the Aiel, more queer couples or throuples (like Gaul, Chiad, and Bain would've been), and more polyandry.  Myrelle comes to mind for "marrying" her warders.  I don't think any non-Aes Sedai had multiple husbands though, not even Ebou Dari women.

Aviendha's love for Rand is reminisicent of the Aiel saying, if you can't stand a man, then stay away from him, kill him, or marry him.  At least the two develop a relationship over time, that ties into Aviendha's personal growth, which has a stronger arc.

My issue isn't that he has 3 wives, but that at least one of his wives (Elayne) seems to view him as her subject, or as an object to own.  I found her a difficult character to connect with, and wondered what exactly Rand saw in her.  Her naivete is a bit endearing, I suppose.  Elayne seems the youngest of all the main characters.  She and Faile both seemed like extremely annoying partners, and in turn, Perrin and Rand look like masochistic, naive boys for choosing them.  Elayne basically doesn't even know Rand and is obsessed with bonding him, which falls under the "lust" category for me.  To her credit, she does act differently towards Rand than she does to say, Mat, or any other person.  I find both Perrin and Rand to seem emotionally immature for loving such possessive women (especially Perrin).  I agree with the person above who mentioned RJ flipping gender roles around, and I like looking at it in that light.

Do you think Olver could be Gaidal Cain reincarnated?  Olver appears in the books shortly after Birgitte leaves Tel'aran'rhiod.  We know time passes differently there - perhaps not linearly.  Before her bare escape from death in Tel'aran'rhiod, Birgitte says she hasn't seen Gaidal in a while and thinks the Wheel spun him out.  Then we meet Olver, who isn't very easy on the eyes, just like Gaidal apparently, and is several years older (8?) than Birgitte would've been had she been born normally, as she said he is in each incarnation.

Olver always struck me as a bit of an odd character to throw into the mix, a bit random, until my current re-reading, where this thought crossed my mind.  True, he shows how thoughtful and caring Mat is, and is a cute reminder of Mat's lack of self-awareness in how Olver acts just like him with women.  He helps elaborate on the Snake and Foxes storyline by being around to play the game, since adults aren't likely to play it together.  Perhaps that's all it is.  I forget if he plays any other role as the series progresses. 

Mostly his timing and his appearance make me speculate. 

I think this is right on.  It seems like Mat is afraid he is going to become violently insane, or of being pulled uncomfortably by his taveren strings.  Or that frankly he doesn't think Rand is much fun to be around anymore.  (Where is good old Perrin when we need him?!)  Egwene, concerned as she is for him, finds his "arrogance" unbearable and that they have little left in common.  She is also busy with her own training under the Wise Ones.  The Aiel treat him more normally than any of the nobles or his other supporters - as a man, not a king, not someone doomed to madness, nor the Creator made flesh.  Plus he is surrounded by conniving and deceitful power grabbers, used to getting their way and being above the law.  Rand's own internal wall about "breaking" the Aiel as a people keeps him from getting too close, the guilt already weighing on him.  And he seems too busy to make new friends.  He obviously needs some!  He gets into his own head, right beside Lews Therin tortured voice, and starts to lose his sense of self-worth with the people near him getting killed, and feeling personally responsible.  Doomed to save the world through self-sacrificie and probably destroy most of it at the same time, and on top of that, to go insane.... yeah, it's an awful hand to be dealt.  Thankfully for him, several women love him.  It's not the same as having a non-romantic friend by his side though.

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

You missed a lot then: Ila taking the lead from Raen, Bran taking back seat to Marin, elimination of town council (and mention of mayor), first major dark friend encounter for Rand/Mat changes from Howal Gode and his two male lackeys to the terminator Dana...

I didn't miss any of that.  I perceived it differently than you did.  In the books, the women of the Two Rivers have as much power as the men - they often use it more subtly.  It's still clear that they are at least as much in charge.  And while more female characters are great (like Dana), it doesn't simply equate to feminism in my book, at least not in the 21st century.  It comes off as superficial, or token feminism.  Not necessarily of meaningful quality.  I'm not criticizing it, but I'm not applauding it either.  The Tinkers scene was a mess and didn't do them justice.

For context, masculinity and femininity don't linearly correlate to men and women.  So yes, obviously men have feminine traits and vice versa.  I think one reason the world is so screwed up is because of the false dichotomy between masculine and feminine.  We're all both, and by denying basically half of who we are - men not wanting to be feminine, women not wanting to be perceived as too masculine - we're stunting our growth as a species.  In order to be whole, we have to accept both masculine and feminine.  I think RJ made a case for this in the books.  We have the Whitecloaks on one end, and the Red Ajah on the other, both clearly neurotic in their extremism, both doing real harm to others and the world.

That's very cool that you and your wife and family have found a way to be egalitarian!  That's what it's all about - balance and respect.  In a historical context, patriarchy is the subjugation of the feminine, not the idea of simply being led by men.  Women can screw things up as easily as men can.  It has to do with power and who gets a voice and rights.

On 11/21/2021 at 6:14 AM, Maximillion said:

 

Rare.  Men are physically stronger than women, by a lot. 

Take two distributions of mens and womens strength and the overlap of weakest men and strongest women would be quite small.

It's just the way it is.

You don't need to alter reality to show the empowerment of women.

It can be done in more meaningful and realistic ways.

 

 

Hmm.  How do you explain Maidens of the Spear then?

In fact, the Aiel show us just how much gender is socially constructed.  A maiden, and maybe most other Aiel women, could slaughter any given wetlander man.  Why?  Because she was "socialized", trained, brought up to be that way.  Are her muscles as big as a Stone Dog's?  Not likely.  Could she physically overwhelm him?  Quite possibly.

Strength comprises so much more than muscles and size.  I get your point that there are physiological differences, basically due to hormones like androgen and testosterone giving the body a huge boost in muscle mass.  I don't think it's fair to say the strongest women are barely stronger than the weakest men.  Women's muscles don't show as superficially (the top layer) as men's - meaning, a man and a woman could bench the same amount of weight, but the man would look stronger.  In North American society, women are also not trained to value things like fighting and being beastly strong (or being the "alpha").  The pecking order doesn't work that way like it does for men.  So I think your point is missing the crucial element of socialization.

I haven't really perceived any new kind of feminism on the show that wasn't already in the books.  It's a nice touch to see the Women's Circle destroy a trolloc - but we already know how badass the women of Two Rivers are.  I love WOT because of the inherent feminism in the series, and because it isn't over-simplified and shows the complexities of women or men having too much power in the extreme. 

The books mostly avoid concepts of domestic violence, and we don't witness a whole lot of state-sanctioned patriarchy (or familial for that matter), aside from hatred of Aes Sedai (which is the glaring exception).  Sexual violence is a hammer of male-domination, and it only comes in here and there in the series, its scarcity unrealistic.  The brutal regularity of it in books like GOT is sadly much more true to reality.

I daresay, if anything, I think the show so far has gone in a slightly less feminist direction.  Dana the darkfriend could easily have killed Rand before he broke out of the room, but instead she got a ludicrous running scene.  Moiraine practically dies in the first few episodes, removing the serious sense of control we get from her in the books.  The intimidating sense of queenly respect she has at the beginning of the books is less clear in the show.  We see a live Aes Sedai being burned at the stakes - again, very unlikely.  The tests to become Aes Sedai include channeling through extreme pain.  Almost certainly, they would have had to kill her to capture her.  IMO, saying the Dragon could be a woman isn't feminism - it's missing the point and strays way too far from canon.  Perrin is given a "wife" who gets a few lines before being accidentally murdered - basically turning her into an object for his plot advancement.  And Nynaeve's speech about her Wisdom being turned away from the White Tower is playing into some elitist trope and is the antithesis of what we know about Aes Sedai in the books.  There may be prejudice against wilders, and some Aes Sedai may be ashamed of their impoverished childhoods, but there's not much indication that poverty affects anyone's ability to train. 

Briefly touching on the fact that Ila addresses Perrin and Egwene first - the Way of the Leaf could be called "feminine".  It's very yin - passive and accepting.  The way we first perceive the Tinkers in the show - as a possible threat (are they zombies?!) - does a disservice to their happy and free nature, which is the crux of who they are.  So this scene actually loses another point on the feminism scale for me, if we're counting.  My examples here are all for the sake of discussion - I don't think anything here is meaningfully averse to feminism, but it makes for an interesting topic.

For the brosephs/"meninists" here, if you really think you know everything about feminism, it just shows how much more you have to learn.  Step back, be humble, and look at where your defensiveness comes from.  Listen to people whose lives are directly impacted by it.  And, feminism is for men too.  Patriarchy affects all of us. 

What's up fellow geeks. 

After watching the new TV series, I just can't keep my mouth shut, and have no friends IRL who have read the books.  So here I am. 

I'm on my 4th read through of the series - first read it about ten years ago.  Struggling through Lord of Chaos which has always been the hardest for me to get through.  Loving all the foreshadowing and new things that I pick up on each time I read the series again.

I pretty much hated the first 3 episodes, though I will probably still watch it every week, out of loyalty and morbid curiosity.  Definitely disappointed.  But in general, the books are always better than the movies or tv series.  I think the casting is decent so far.

As the Brits say... Rubbish. 

I'm pissed.  Calling it an adaptation is a euphemism.  It's been butchered.  I can't imagine non-readers being interested in it at all.  This is going to be a flop.  The story is too vague to hold the interest of those not familiar with the books.

Often, those of us who love the books are let down when it's adapted for the screen.  I get that.  But it can be done well, or at least good enough.  LOTR, Harry Potter, Game of Thrones, they were all at least passable.  The scripts didn't change so drastically as to seem like the writers didn't even bother to read the books first. 

There is just so much wrong.  An Aes Sedai being burned at the stake by Whitecloaks - why wouldn't she channel herself free?  And Rand and Egwene having sex in the first episode?  We don't even see them kiss in the books; plus, they all start out as prudish virgins, which is part of what is endearing about them.

Thom Merrilin is a guitar playing singer?  And singing about fricking Lews Therin.  Just awful.  A gleeman is not the same as some mediocre musician.  Talk about a let down.  They couldn't even do his cloak justice!

I could get on board with the characters looking a bit different than they're written.  I think most of the characters were cast well.  Lan just isn't nearly intimidating enough (and a Borderlander asking for hot water... just no).  It's as if someone skimmed the book - or was told about it by someone who flipped through it - and decided to just make up a new story to fill in the outline. 

There is a reason the series has held up over time - because it's good the way it is.  Don't just change things willy nilly because you're not creative enough to figure out how to make it work for TV.  Like pretending the Dragon could be a woman.  The whole point is that saidin and saidar are different, that saidin is tainted and will lead to the Dragon going insane and breaking the world again.  Seriously... unless somehow it gets better quick, what a waste of money, and a stain on the reputation of the series.  Super sad and majorly let down.