Personally, I think I’m pretty much done now.
It took however many weeks for me to even drum up the interest to watch the finale and it disappointed on every level. 
No Aginor or Belthamel? No Green Man? No actual Eye of the World or any of the story beats that go along with it?

Looks like Loial is dead, Moraine is stilled and Rand is going off solo. 
All I really wanted to watch a TV production of the Wheel of Time books, not whatever this thing is.

And according to the show runner they need to have Rosamund Pike and Daniel Henny front and centre because they’re the big name actors so they will continue to just … make stuff up. 
I gave it a season, just like I did with the new Star Trek, the latest Dr Who actress, and similar modern TV attempts and if they can’t hold my interest, I’m done. 
It’s a real shame because chances are that Wheel of Time will never get a proper TV/Movie iteration and this mess is all that’s ever going to come of it. You really only get one bite of the apple with something like this, at least for the foreseeable future. 
My one hope out of all this is that Brandon Sanderson is taking note and that he’s going to push for much greater creative control over Mistborn and the other stories he’s sold to TV producers. Reading between the lines on his public statements he doesn’t seem happy with where this show is going and he won’t want the same thing to happen with his legacy. 
Ah well, I guess some people are liking this, so good luck to ‘em. I’m going back to finishing my current listen through of the audiobooks and enjoying the actual Wheel of Time. 

Still pretty unimpressed with the show.

Loved the blood snow, hated a whole lot of the rest of it.

I wrote a massive dump of my feelings but then realised no-one here would really care so just deleted it. in summary... its just a lot of meh.

On the whole, the shows just un-inspiring. It's three or four days sine the episode dropped and I honestly couldn't be bothered watching it till now. Same happened with the previous episode. I just don't feel the draw of it.

In contrast I only just realised that Season 2 of Witcher dropped on Netflix and I'm settling in to binge multiple episodes and work tomorrow be damned. For me thats the easiest criteria to judge a show on.

Whether I'm excited to watch it and can't wait for the next episode or not.
WOT? Just not excited.

I think the season finale will make or break it for me. If they can't wow me, and they continue to ignore so much of the core story for more of the made-up "noodles with my step-family" crap... I think I'll probably stop watching. 

Didn't enjoy this one at all.

Half way through season 1 and Rand is in Tar Valon. No Queens Blessing? No Basil Gil?
Loial is barely half a foot taller than Rand. His intro is only a minute or two while instead we get even more idle gossip on the sex lives of Aes Sedai and warders. Loial did seem well acted but the shortness and the rubbery makeup detracted a LOT - given how the Harry Potter movies protrayed Hagrid so well, twenty years ago, and the effort the show put into the trollocs, this feels like a poor choice.

Lan just doesn't feel like Lan. The funeral at the end actually made me laugh. A cringeworthy mashup of Kirk's "KKAAAHHHHNNNN!" and Vader's "NNNNOOOOOO!!!!" - just felt lame, out of character and corny.

So much time wasted on side characters.

Perrin's character continues to veer further and further away from the source. The wolves look more and more like friendly pets with every appearance. Really missing Elyas' character. Perrin and Egwene running off and leaving the Tinkers to get brutalised feels really shady.

I like that the Whitecloaks continue to be chillingly twistred, but Valda's comment about having no problems breaking oaths felt really out of place. The whole reason the WC's are so scary is because they genuinely think they are the good guy's. Oathbreaking kind of ruins that.

I continue to enjoy Matt's portrayal (so annoying the actor is leaving). Rand seems to be up and down and I don't think he'l be able to pull off the full-blown Dragon Reborn we get in the later books... but the writers dont seem to have the skill to pull that off either so it likely won't matter. 

Tar Valon the city looks small and pokey, Tar Valon the tower seems really under-developed, like it was filmed in a small soundstage with only two rooms and a corridor. I did not get the sense of size and scale for whats supposed to be the largest city in the world.

The entire show just feels ... small to me. For an epic fantatsy its lacking a feeling of grandeur and scale. Towns and cities feel tiny, the One Power seems a lty weaker, characters feel wooden, plots feel rushed and cut short. I'll keep watching but after the slight uptick in episode 2, its been a steady downhill slide.

On 11/21/2021 at 7:10 AM, Sir_Charrid said:

So attempting to move on from the disappointments of the opening 3 episodes there are 3 key moments in the books I am really looking forward to non readers experiencing. They are in no particular order. 
 

Realisation that the world before the breaking was technologically more advanced then our own society, with hover cars and amazing tech. That understanding that the breaking wasn’t just destruction and death, but a complete regression of society back from high tech to the Middle Ages. 
 

The reveal that Rand is Aiel and the understanding of who his parents are. 
 

The reveal of the link between the Tinkers and the Aiel. 
 

The second one, Rands heritage, has been already foreshadowed really well. The casting of Emonds Field and Rand really makes him stand out as looking different. Follow this up with the cut between Matt knelt by the Aiel body and the camera lingering on the hair and face, and then switching to Rands face as he deals with the Dark Friend and you get that bit of foreshadowing of this fact. 
 

I have a feeling that we are going to find out Rand is Aiel far sooner then In the books. Viewers are going to make the connection very soon after the Aiel start appearing in numbers and there is no point “hiding it” for a Long time. I did think they would do a similar thing with the tinkers, making them look appear similar to the aiel. 
 

So what are the moments you are looking forward to being imagined on screen, which big reveals do you hope will land and excite or surprise newcomers to the series? 
 

 

So… you’re hanging out for the Rhuidean visions? That’s basically where all three of those things are really driven home. 
Before Rhuidean, Rand being an Aiel is kind of an academic “oh that’s interesting” while afterwards it’s a gut-punching “you have a direct line of ancestry all the way back to the Breaking… and here they are in Technicolor”

Its also the first time we really get a glimpse of the Age of Legends and what high-technology meant in this world, and of course it’s where the history of the Aiel and the Tuatha-An is spelled out. 

I’m looking forward to the later books (

post Dumai’s Wells) where Rand starts to really come into his own as the Dragon and we see the One Power really let loose - the thunderstorm against the Seanchen, the Cleansing of the Taint, Balefire… the Damane letting loose, the the Asha’man going full bore.
Unfortunately I’m not convinced Rand’s actor has it in him to really play that slightly crazed arrogance that is the Dragon in full steam. He’s too skinny and bland. Hopefully he can surprise us, if it lasts that long. 
Short-term I am both eager and dreading Loial and the Ogiers. Could be great, could be cringey. 
Maichen Shin and the Ways also intrigue - hopefully they do that better than Mashadar. 

I thought the Whitecloaks where cool - genuine mix of psychotic (Valda) and genuine (Bornhald)

I thought Padain Fain was really good and well cast

Shadar Logoth was pretty creepy (for the brief scene it was in)

Matts actor captured the character pretty well for me (none of the others did and he’s leaving next season so…☹️)

Some of the Trollocs looked kind of cool

I guess some of the scenery was quite pretty?

1 hour ago, DaddyFinn said:

Can anyone explain what makes this a "curse"? I've never understood it.

 

Uno better spit those flaming curses or we will riot.

TV Tropes - You’re drinking breast milk

It’s another part of the world building the show is lacking. 

It’s more “edgy” to use bastard and prick and they are keen to try and skirt the edginess of GoT without going full “Tyrion-in-the-brothel”
Honestly for me it’s like the 7 year old who’s learnt a swear word and uses it because he thinks it makes him cool, though he’s secretly terrified his Mum will hear. It feels really out of place. It’s not as bad as the crappy new Star Trek dropping the f-bomb and dramatically pausing so the audience can all gasp at how edgy they are… but it’s in the same ball-park. 
Personally I’m a fan of Frak and Gorram in other shows. It’s immersive. 

And I think “Mother’s milk in a cup!!” is an awesome curse to shout if you hit your finger with a hammer or something. It has the right flow and intonation and finishes strong with an abrupt one-syllable word.  

25 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

This is probably academic but what happens to the amazon story with a female DR? 

Actually, there’s an even easier solution to this whole thing that we are completely overlooking. 
Maybe some people in the WoT world just don’t understand how reincarnation works. Or maybe Moraine doesn’t. It’s a religion of a sort and its entirely possible some people just get the details wrong. There is no man can be reincarnated as a woman, there can’t be a female dragon but they just don’t really understand all the little details of how it works and they only THINK the Dragon can be a woman.
Maybe Moraine is a member of the highly unpopular “Church of the Genderless Soul” and everyone is just playing along with the crazy woman who thinks the Dragon can be a girl. No one wants to tell her she’s being dumb because she’s an Aes Sedai and they’re afraid she’ll melt their eyeballs. but everyone else knows the Dragons a boy and Lan has been gently steering her in the right direction and patiently playing along every time she goes chasing after a girl. 

2 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Ok. Now my second point that it doesn't "damage" the narrative. It changes it. The Dragon powers that don't exist, according to someone, are gender neutral. The Saidar and Saidin story has to be changed but so what? It was hokey to begin with since the power was the same so why should one be tainted? Anyway that's gone in Amazon. Please cancel my lifetime subscription.

What? The powers aren;t the same, they're diametrically opposed - surrender versus domination. The temnsion between the two sides of the power is what turns the wheel. The dichotomy is inherent to the very structure of teh narrative. It's why the gender dynamics in the workd are so different, why the Aes Sedai are so powerful and men are so feared. One is tainted because an arrogant man tried to ave the world without the help of women and the consequences Broke the world.  At some point, when you change the fundamental mythos of teh tale, you're not telling the same story anymore. 

1 minute ago, flinn said:

 It really doesnt matter anyway. Rand is going to be the dragon so the whole gender thing is really a moot point.

Which makes it even more stupid. So much of the underlying story is dependant on the Dragon always being male and tainted Saidin both saving and breaking the world. Abandoning that for a throw-away line and a gimmick of a couple of episodes, it;s just dumb.

2 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

I don’t remember if it was actually confirmed but there was definitely talk  from the Forsaken of how lucky Lews Therin was, which is definitely reminiscent of ta’veren
 

It's never stated directly that LTT was T'averren, but Loial said "Artur Hawkwing was ta'veren. So was Lews Therin Kinslayer, for that matter, I suppose.".

]There are also multple references to Rand being the strongest T'averren since the AoL, suggesting that there was at least one as strong around that time,, and it almost has to be LTT (or maybe Mierin? Freeing the Drak one totally seems like something T'averren-ish. Remember its not always good!!)
Also, Jordan stated that T'avereen-hood comes and goes as needed. You can be a T'averren for a little while or for a long while. LTT would almost certainly have been a T'Averren at some point in the war of Power and almost definitely at the Sealing of the Bore. 

1 minute ago, Gothic Flame said:

Books are clear that the Dragon is always a dude.

But the show needs to be "modern" so apprently in can be a chick instead... however much that damages teh entire narrative,

Just now, Joe B said:

"And him they named Dragon. Now, this man has been born again. We don't know where or to whom. If he was reborn as a girl or a boy. The only thing we know for certain is that this child is coming of age now, and we must find them... before the Dark does."

 

I wonder if we'll get the Karatheon cycle and the prophecies of the Dragon, or just vague legends and myths?

1 minute ago, Agitel said:

On an unrelated note, I don't understand how reviewers watched six episodes and don't find any of the EF5 characters distinctive. Even on episode three they all have their unique personalities.

 

Maybe they just didn't feel invested, sure. But there is certainly enough there for them to be distinctive characters.

There hasn't been a whole lot of in depth characterisation, and a lot of its kind of shallow (Perrin Fridged his wife, Matts a thief and from an abusive home, Rand and Egwne are boning but they're not, Nynaeve aint from around here and is like 25 but also a village elder and apparently a ninja?...)
Plus non-book fans have a lot of info-dumping to deal with and not a lot of explanation. T'averren, One Power (which has two parts), Dragons and Trollocs and Shadar Logoth that was Aridhol but failed Manetheren in the Trolloc wors, which is different to Artur Hawkwings war... there's a lot going on and a lot hasn't been very well explained. 

Just now, Harad the White said:

It makes sense in the series, if and only if gender-changing can occur in reborning. I'd be happy for someone to tell me different. 

I think the reason why everyone thinks it makes no sense is that fear of the Dragon cones from him wielding tainted Saidin. He's going to save the world but doing so will drive him mad and the porphecies talk about him Breaking the world again. If the Dragons a girl, she;s not affected by the tant, she's not going to go mad, and it makes no sense for everyone to fear her coming. She would be praised as a hero to save the world, not one to Break it in the process.
And they did all that, just so they could try and keep Rand's identitty secret for a few episodes. 

4 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

The source of what? I am just stating facts about the series and the implication of these facts.

Sorry, may have misunderstood - when you say series - you mean book or show? Cause in the books it's impossible for the Dragon to be a woman. In the show it can be either, but then the whole Aran'gar stryline is pointless, and the fear of the Dragon is also kind of illogical.

6 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

A step back. This is a fact about the series: They allow for a female DR. Don't ask me how the OG can be a male and the DR can be a female. I don"t know. But I do know that the Dragon powers are not gender-based in principle. The only way to square the circle is to allow gender changing in reborning.

There are no "Dragon powers", not till way late in the book when Sanderson starts playing around with Rand and LTT"s merged souls. The Dragon is a male channeller, Ta'verren and most pwerful Channeller in history.  He is also the same soul, reincarnated over and over again, Not a new soul, not "oh this turnig of the wheel it was a woman". He and Ishy have been fighting the same battle for eternity, through multiple turnings of the wheel.
He failed at the bore and the clap-back tainted Sai'din. If the Dragon had been a woman, she would have failed at the bore and Saidar would be tainted. But that would only whappen is she would have always been a woman, in every turning of the wheel.

The Draogn is inherently a man because souls can't gender swap (short of Dark One intervening) and even if the Dark One does, their OP alignment doesn;t channge. The Dragon can never be a female because he's always been a male, because thats what his soul is. Wheel of time turns, ages come and go etc etc. 

5 minutes ago, Akragard said:

But then if a woman caused the breaking, it would have to be Saidar that was tainted, not Saidin.  If a woman broke the world, why would the counterstroke taint the other half of the One Power?  If it was indeed a woman, then men wouldn't be the ones who went mad and women wouldn't be in power and trusted while men were hunted.

 

Or is your point that the soul could have been a man when he broke the world and then switch to a woman as the Dragon Reborn, thus negating the madness and making her an unstoppable force, able to be trained by women who won't go mad to use the One Power, where male channelers can just be eradicated?

Arang'gar. A male soul can't be naturally reborn into a female body and gain the power to channel Saider. Male souls channel male power and go in a male body. RJ has confirmed this previsouly in Q&A sessions. The Dark One has to play tricksy "Lord of the Grave" shtick to force a male soul into a fuly grown femal body, after remvong her soul, and even then he/she still channels Saidin.  

16 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

But can she lie if it’s only in her head? I mean, it’s narration. 

The oath against lying is deeply problematic. As a fun little game, go through the books and count how many times the pre-severing Siuan threatens to "gut someone like a fish" or "turn you into fishbait".?

I beleive at one point Jordan tried to back himself out of a corner by stating that an Aes Sedai can lie if "they beleive what they are saying is true, or is somthing they don't mean literally". The "take things literally" thing becomes important because there's a LOT of sracasm and hyperbole from Aes Sedai. I'm sure half the idel threats or sarcastic jibes made in the books would slam right into the oaths.

In the case of the show and the DRagons borth, did she say "we don't know where the DR was born" or "I don't know where the DR was born". And by "we" does she mean none of the Aes Sedai know or just her and Lan aren't sure?
And, using typical Aes Sedai mental trickery - even in the books she doesn't know EXACTLY where he was born. "On the slopes of Dragonmount"... I mean, it's a pretty big mountain...

3 hours ago, Jadefade said:

Imho, as long as an Aes Sedai is conscious and not shielded she can defend herself, (even in the dark without her hands as Rand did in the Box once to untied the shield) now if the whitecloaks know about and were able to tricked an Aes Sedai into drinking forkroot tea then they could burn them while they were unconscious, otherwise I don’t know why they were not able to defend themselves - I don’t remember any where a whitecloak was able to over power an Aes Sedai face to face, bully yes actually attack not that I remember. If there is please let me know where I’d like to read that part again, every time I reread I find something new

Not a Whitecloak but:

Ambush is an easy way to cath/kill an Aes Sedai. An arrow or sling from afar would take one down easily. Also, we know that the Warder bound is strong and the death of a Warder has a powerful effect. Sneak up on an Aes Sedai, riddle her Warder with arrows and while she's realing in shock, hit her in the head with a blunt fouling arrow or sling stone.

Blow-pipes and sleeping darts? Smoke bombs (hard to focus when blind and coughing from smoke). 

These newer, creepier, more psychotic Whitecloaks seem like teh type to have put a LOT of thought into ways to take down a threat from afar.

As for once they're captured, needing hands for the weaves aside, I highly doubt even the greatest Aes Sedai can focus and surrender well enough to channel with two bleeding stumps for hands and her feet on fire. 

I actually really buy this change, It makes the Whitecloaks more of a real world threat.

7 hours ago, rowdie said:

that would allow them to defend themselves anytime they see a white cloaks wouldn't it?

 I don't think that's how the oaths work?: 
 

3. Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Darkfriends or Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme defense of her life, the life of her Warder, or another Aes Sedai

An Aes Sedai can step in front of a charging swordsman and use the power to kill him to save her life. She can't just kill a man walking past because he's carrying a sword and might take a swing at her. That's what makes them uniquely vulnerable. Unless its a direct threat, they can't do anything. Thats why the Sisters all started physically wading into the battle at Dumai's Wells. They couldn't stand on the sidelines tossing fireballs, they or their warders had to be under direct threat. 

2 minutes ago, Jackdaw_Fool said:

How did Moiraine disqualify the male channeler from being the DR - This has been on my pile of things I'm worried they won't explain... Don't get me wrong, they very well may in future episodes, we'll see.

 

Think maybe she disqualified him because he was gentled? As in, if he were actually the Dragon Reborn the pattern would have somehow prevented him from being gentled? I doubt it, because of the plot repercussions (would mean the dragon has plot shielding keeping him safe in some regards.) I only say I doubt it versus there's no way they'd go in that direction because I don't have faith in the show to fully make internal sense and be fully thought out. At least not yet based on what we've seen so far (still have hope!)

 

Maybe Moiraine has the ability to see ta'veren in this telling and knows the dragon reborn must be ta'veren? Just really wondering how she decided the guy wasn't the dragon reborn...

May be an age thing? The guy looked too old to have been born on Dragonmount at the right time (assuming thats still a thing). He's defnotely looking older than Rand.

The Dragon being maybe a girl or maybe a boy also plays havoc with Aran'gar/Osan'gar? 

3 hours ago, Akragard said:

I'm sorry, at this point, do people still take major news outlets seriously, particularly when it comes to pop culture?

 

I've found that a lot of the time they really miss the mark on what the audience will actually like.

As a viewer? No we don't take news outlets or rotten tomatoes or similar sites seriously.
The high paid studio execs with the power of life and death over the show? They absoultely take that seriously because its one of the major sources of unpaid promotion for the project, positive OR negative.

1 hour ago, Beidomon said:

Yes I’d like to see that, too. I wonder if they’ll even dig that deeply in the show. So far, admittedly through just 3 episodes, they’ve approached everything related to OP and channeling at a very superficial level. 

Yeah, I'm feeling they've heavily depowered the One Power and the Aes Sedai (Moraine struggled in a relatively small battle at the start, the Whitecloaks farming Aes Sedai like rats in a lvl 1 dungeon, Rand's OP moment being... shoulder barging a door?) Given they seem to be dumbing things down a lot and the idea of weaves and Talents and strength in the power etc being complicated and hard to represent in dialogue, I'm half expecting the OP to just be a fairly generic white-misty-magic that basically does whatever the plot requires with minimal explanation.
I do like the idea that the weaves and colours will get more complex once we get to the tower and we see novices and Accepted learning. I'm just skeptical that we have time for much of that. 8 seasons of 8 episodes (being ambitious)? That's only 61 episodes left till the end of the Last Battle.

1 hour ago, Harad the White said:

How about Mars?

I'm afraid Elon Musk has already placed dibs on Mars. Bezos has to aim for Venus.

59 minutes ago, GanoesParan said:

I don't understand all the negative comments about the cgi being wonky or cheap. On my big screen TV, the cgi actually looks pretty good to me. 

The CGI and general special effects are hit and miss.
The One Power is okay, but a little generic, and Moraines "whacky-wavy-inflatable-arm-flailing tubeman" impression is distracting to say the least. The lightning summon was bad ass, but the fire-balls were a bit meh, and tearing down the entire inn to throw a few rocks seemed like an odd choice.
The Trollocs swap between obvious blurry CGI and a mix of "guys-in-decent-costumes" and "guys-in-really-cheap-looking-costumes" (I really like the idea that not all the Trolocs are 10 foot tall horned monstrosities, but the little hairy ones running around on all fours just look like guys wearing cheap halloween gorilla suits)

Mashadar was super disappointing

Ishamaeal's dream flashes have been VERY underwhelming

The wolves look like small domestic huskies, not big intimidating wild beasts.

The scenery is lovely but the world seems super empty and lifeless. The early parts of the book, when Matt and Rand are making their own way, are filled with villages and inns, chance meetings on the road. It now feels like a post apocalyptic wasteland - the only populated area whe've seen outside Emmond's Field is a mining village which looks like something out of Mad Max, not a fantasy setting.

Costumes are good, they all have their distinct looks and its beleivable, without being dull and grey.
 

It kind of feels like, (with alot of things in these first few episodes) things are rushed, edited and removed and what's left is really patchy - some looks really good (Shadar Logoth as cool and creepy as f*) but it's on the screen for so short a time that its gone and they're back wandering in empty landscapes.

19 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Episode 1 comment that I haven't seen anywhere:

 

What are the odds that we do in fact know the name of the poor young man who was taken by the Reds at the very beginning?

 

"A young man, who had revealed the talent, and I was not there to help him; by the time I was, it was too late"

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Thom's nephew, Owyn

 

I like this idea but it doesnt really work for me. The man in that scene was in his thirties I'd say. Even putting aside the idea of slowing, he just looks too old.

 I think this scene was meant as a way for the show to introduce the madness and a foreshadowing of how we'll experience LTT.

On a different note, I think I've worked out my biggest issue with episode one. Putting aside the character changes to Matt and Perrin (which I absolutley hate) and the other weird choices, I think for me it comes down to the pacing/editing.

Anecdotal stories are that the show-runners wanted a two-hour pilot and a longer season run and Amazon refused. Watching this episode, I wonder if that was a conversation that they had a little too late in the process?
It genuinely looks like they wanted a two-hour pilot,  they scripted a two-hour pilot, filned the scenes for a two-hour pilot and then Amazon said they only had an hour. At that point, rather than re-writing, or re-shooting, they took what they had and started hacking it up to edit it down to an hour. Whole segments of the story were excised.

I imagine things like Rand and Tam's interactions, Rand dragging his dying father to the village, (along with similar character building scenes for Perrin and Matt) were removed with the idea that they could be re-inserted as flash-backs later on. For whatever reason, the character building scenes for Egwene and Nynaeve stayed in ( the cliff-jumping and rock scrubbing) so it ends up feeling disjointed. We lose all the stuff with Rands sword, Perrins axe (does Perrin even have his axe anymore? I don't remember seeing it after he fridged his made-up wife) and the characters kind of feel shallow. 

I wonder if they'll have time to put much of that backstroy back in?

43 minutes ago, TheChief said:

You won't see any anti-women stereotypical characters or plot set ups.

Cough, cough … Perrin’s dead wife… cough cough. 
TV Tropes - Stuffed into the Fridge

I’ve said it on a couple of other places but I actually feel that the feminist perspective and skewing things that way actually works in the WoT world. Men BROKE the world. Every time a man learns to channel he either goes mad and devastates half the countryside or tries to set himself up as a false Dragon and start a new World War. In a world where peiple

genuinely believe there is a permanent (albeit small) chance that almost any man will turn into a lightning wielding mad-man, that’s going to impact the concept of equality. Frankly, given the historical context, it’s kinda weird that things like Andor only ever having queens is seen as an exception rather than the rule. 
I’m personally less bothered by the way the show is pushing Egwene and Nynaeve more forward, except for the fact that I always found them to be the least interesting characters (Nynaeve especially) There’s way bigger issues with the show than that.

Also, Rafe being a self-avowed feminist, I’m still disturbed at them leaning so heavily into the trope of Perrin “fridging his wife”. That in and of itself should be a raising some eyebrows.