44 minutes ago, Denver Steve said:

The problem is that you have to touch them to heal them(or at least be very close to them).

Except this isn't true. Touching the patient is psychosomatic action that the sisters perform, but touching has absolutely nothing to do with creating the Healing weave.

A similar topic was discussed in the books when the Wise Ones criticized the Aes Sedai for performing "throwing motions" whenever they channeled fireballs. By thinking they needed to form the weave near their hand first, the AS limited their utility with it. Recall that Aviendha was able to form fireballs several yards away and launch them toward herself (albeit, through the Gate she was standing behind). An Ars Sedai couldn't do that.

A channeler should be able to Heal without touching. It's just they learn to do it while touching, and have considerable difficulty "unlearning" it. It's like a Wilder's block in that regard.

48 minutes ago, Elendir said:

 

Morain's visit to Adelaas and Vandene is hardly essential. We just know that she spent some time studying there and that she was attacked. Most have taken place off-page, so it can easily take place off-screen. Morain can then briefly discuss this in the next section.

Whole-heartedly disagree!

The difference between good television and bad television is the way exposition is used. If you arbitrarily have Moiraine "briefly discuss" her absence when she meets back up with the others, that's an example of bad exposition; it's only there for the viewer's benefit and often makes very little sense in the context of the story. Why would Moiraine just blurt out that she learned a forbidden weave to people who she can't be certsin wouldn't go blabbing their mouths? It makes no sense, and it's completely against Moiraine's character. This is precisely what I was referring to when I mentioned "sloppy exposition" in my previous post.

Furthermore, it's something she does not even do in the books. She does not explain where she was to anybody, at least not in any great detail, so you'd be adding scenes that simply never existed... as opposed to adding scenes that we know existed, but just happened off page. You tell me, which is a more faithful adaptation?

I didn't write anything about Mat's absence in the third book. There is a difference between focusing on a character and ignoring others.

Sure, and I agreed that episodically you can (and should) focus on a couple characters, but not for the entire arc of the book. Mat has a rather prominent role in Book Three to simply "cut" him from the story. His escape from the White Tower leads to Tear, where he breaks into the Stone to rescue the girls, and this event has a resonating effect later on in Ebou Dar that is a pivotal moment for Elayne and her relationship with Aviendha.

Besides, viewers need to know how Mat gets to Tear because he needs to accompany Rand into the Waste. Are you just going to have him magically pop-up when the Shadow Rising story arc begins? That's another example of bad writing: chatacters just showing up wherever they need to be because the plot demands it.

Well, obviously, he'd be a she, first of all, but I'm assuming you're asking if he would still a) kill that guy for getting a dragon tatoo, and b) be hung for it.

The Maiden's carry Rand's honour, so it seems more likely Mangin would thump the guy and drag him before Rand for judgment, rather than taking it upon herself. I won't speculate on what Rand's decision would be, that that seems the likely result.

However, the Pattern might dictate otherwise. If Mangin was a Maiden, then some other Aiel would probably be forced into filling the role that Mangin fills. This unnamed Aiel would be the one to befriend Rand, and later break Rand's decree by killing the man, thus resulting in his hanging. The hypothetical female Mangin would just be another girl pestering Rand and laughing behind his back with handtalk (i.e., just another Maiden).

1 hour ago, 02ranger said:

Personal interpretation of your own actions and the intent behind them is everything to the Three Oaths and I think that actually does make the Three Oaths worthless. Only the Aes Sedai, of all the channelers we meet in various societies, are seen as scheming and untrustworthy, and the Three Oaths are the main reason.

My thoughts exactly!

At some point in the story, one of the Aes Sedai (I forget who) balks at the way people are now treating them and says the Aes Sedai must always "stand apart" from the rest of humanity and maintain an air of "mystery." I read that and I'm like: but don't they see that that looks like the Aes Sedai have a superiority complex (which they certainly do!) and can breed distrust as often as it does awe?

It's the main reason I have so much difficulty liking the AS on the whole. They are written very two-dimensionally. They're presented as having this ageless wisdom and experience, but they're always dropping their jaws or bulging their eyes when someone backtalks them; or fainting and vomiting when things surprise them or don't go their way. It shows a considerable lack of self-control from people who expect (if not demand) self-control and civility from everyone else.

I suppose that's an intentional flaw the readers are supposed to see in them, but I just don't like the way it's presented. The term "Aes Sedai serenity" is used frequently, and everytime it reminds me of "Bene Gesserit stoicism." But unlike the Bene Gesserit, this "Aes Sedai serenity" is easily shattered by things that their multiple decades of experience should be accustomed to. The impression I gleen from it is that the Aes Sedai are deluded by their own self-importance, having grown complacent by a world that has cowtowed to them out of some misplaced reverence because of what they represent, not because of what they have accomplished. The modern-day Aes Sedai are simply riding the coat tails of their predecessors, but (from what I've seen) have done very little to add to that legacy. So when people start treating them as equals, rather than the demi-goddesses they apparently think they are, the mask slips and they reveal that they are really nothing more than simpering, spoiled brats.

____

But back on topic...

Yeah, I think you may be right. The Three Oaths seem to be more like "guidelines" than a strict set of tenets. Jordan may have wanted to concentrate more on developing the interactions between characters than worrying about the minutea of technicalities. However, I don't think the goal was to send some messege about the dangers of constraint, as that doesn't come through as a theme. As I said before, it doesn't ruin the story, since the inconsistencies are largely inconsequential, but because I'm a pedant these things tend to bother me. ?

6 hours ago, 02ranger said:

 

... but all that matters is that the Aes Sedai doesn't see it that way. I hope I explained that well enough and am not just rambling aimlessly......

Nah, you did good ?

The way the Aes Sedai skirt the Three Oaths is used cleverly most of the time, which is why this (and a few other cases) sticks out.

Another example of this "contradiction" is in The Dragon Reborn when the girls, Verin, and sick Mat are confronted by Whitecloaks, and Egwene causes the ground to burst around their feet. No one is hurt (at least no worse than pinching or switching would cause), but Verin freaks out anyway and says something to effect that they mustn't do that and that the Three Oaths would sort them out. I don't think the intent was to hurt the Whitecloaks, just frighten them and warn them to back off. Yet Verin seems to see it as a violation of the Third Oath.

A third example is on the road to Ebou Dar, where Mat is being harassed because he won't give up his medalion. Adeleas uses the Power to fling horse dung at him. The "intent" was not to hurt Mat, so you can make the argument it's not being used as a "weapon," but the action is still an unwarrented assault against Mat (he does not want, nor expect, to be hit by dung), and any civilized society would consider the action to be an attack. So Adeleas, who undoubtedly is familiar with societial expectations and laws, is using the Power as a weapon, if perhaps indirectly... that's not unlike Egwene causing the ground to explode to frighten the Whitecloaks.

I'm not saying such things ruin the enjoyment of the story, I'm just pointing out they are inconsistent with what we are led to believe. If the Oaths are so pedantic that sisters can simply rationalize their way around them, then really they are bollocks, meaningless except for (as Suane points out) a common bond between sisters. And perhaps that is the greater point, but it jives with other scenes... like Dumai's Wells, where the AS were unable to use the Power to strike back at the Aiel until one of them was actually killed. Pedantry would dictate that if fireballs and lightning were being flung at you, you're life is in danger; it doesn't take a death to finally confirm it.

6 hours ago, Sabio said:

It's how you interpret it.  had Eladia of taken it so literally then she would never of been able to speak unless Alviran told her what to say. 

Yeah, but no.

The context matters, and maybe RJ just worded it poorly, but that's what makes it an inconsistency.

"I will speak the words you tell me to speak, and no more." This can be interpretted as not speaking at all until given permission, but the sentence structure more strongly suggests that Elaida is forbidden from repeating what Alviarin says unless Alvi expressly allows it. This is supported by the rest of the narrative, when Elaida enlists Seaine's help, but gives her very little information on what to look for.

But the next part, "I will sign what you tell me to sign, and nothing else," only has one interpretation: she cannot sign anything unless Alviarin tells her to. There is no ambiguity there; it's quite clear.

The bots are evolving!

19 hours ago, Elendir said:

Third book will be again connected with “disappearing” of MC from book before and Perin or super girl can follow in same pattern.

This way, attention will be distributed between characters.

Except that Mat doesn't vanish from the third book. He takes up a good chunk of the story, and it's when we're first truly introduced to his Great Luck. And his decision to free the girls from the Stone is a pivotal moment in his character arc.

None of those characters are really "missing" from the story. During book 2, Moiraine is in Arafel learning about Balefire... which becomes crucial later, so it may deserve to have some screentime, with Moiraine commenting that what she is doing is forbidden and can result in her being stilled and birched if the Tower ever found out. That would instruct the audience of the dangers of Balefire in an organic way, rather than through sloppy exposition later in the story when she fries the darkhound pack.

You can have episodes that focus primarily on one or two main characters (in fact, it should be done this way to maintain episodic focus and avoid "information overload"), but I wouldn't go more two or three episodes without at least touching upon what one of the main six characters is doing.

19 hours ago, Elendir said:

When she repeted this catechism, she believedit it is true. No more connection is there with three oaths.

 

But that's what I'm saying. The truth of the statement dictates her actions. If she believes it's true she won't sign anything without express permission, she won't.

What you're saying makes absolutely no sense. It would mean the Third Oath could just simply be ignored as long as the sister "believes it" when she says it. That's not the case; the Oath dictates action (or inaction, as it is in these cases).

No... Elaida signing papers without Alviarin's permission is a blatant inconsistancy.

On 1/25/2020 at 2:40 PM, Denver Steve said:

Victims of Spanking in WoT;

 

Elayne.

Nyneave

Siuan

Elaida

Alviarin

Moghedian

Galina

Jolene (that one was funny ?)

 

And of course,

Egween....possibly the most spanked character in any story, ever.

 

Thats’s 9 !

Am I missing anyone?

I don’t remember Min ever getting it, or Aviendha..

maybe Colavere ?

 

Path of Daggers, chapter 26

Min gets her bottom switched by Sorilea.

Necroing a dead thread again cos I don't want to start a new one.

In chapter 25 of Path of Daggers, Elaida signs a bunch of edicts that Alviarin later crumbles up and disgards. But then we get this excerpt (emphasise mine):

Alviarin sighed impatiently. "You haven't forgotten your catechism, have you? Say it for me, as I taught you."

Elaida's lips compressed of their own accord. One pleasure in the woman's absence-not the greatest, but a very real pleasure-had been not being forced to repeat that vile litany every day. "I will do as I am told," she said at last, in a flat voice. She was the Amyrlin Seat! "I will speak the words you tell me to speak, and no more." Her Foretelling ordained her triumph, but, oh, Light, let it come soon! "I will sign what you tell me to sign, and nothing else. I am . . ." She choked over the last. "I am obedient to your will."

If she had to repeat this catechism everyday, wouldn't the Three Oaths bind her to it, and she wouldn't have (couldn't have) signed those edicts?

I'm calling this a goof.

4 minutes ago, Carebear Sedai said:

I'd also like to see Perrin and Mat's other realities in the Flicker sequence and see how that shapes their decisions going forth. But that's a bonus. 

I wonder if the "flicker sequence" (I'm assuming you mean the Portal Stone scene) is going to be used as Ingtar's "big reveal." Maybe make it a montage of each character that gives the audience a little hint.

22 hours ago, mistborn82 said:

No, I mean the wolfbrother training story because as it stands, his only life is his plot in tSR. If you take some of his stuff from TOM and put it throughout the series, he'd be much better because as it stands now, his 1 book development is unworkable.

So you're suggesting to "speed up" his progression by pulling things from later books to earlier in the story?

I guess I can get behind that. I don't know exactly what you mean about "Wolfbrother training" though. He doesn't really "train" at anything except for a few time in Tel'aran'rhiod with Hopper, but that's mostly to do with Wolfdream stuff.

For a "cinematic vibe" to his Wolfbrother awakening, I'd go with something like:

- He and Egwene meet Elyas after the escape from Shadar Logoth. The audience is introduced to the concept of Wolfbrothers

- Whitecloaks approach... Elyas sends Perrin and Egwene away, but they get separated in the confusion (on-screen drama)

- Whitecloaks corner Perrin, but wolves suddenly attack, defending him. When one of the wolves gets killed, Perrin flies into a rage (foreshadowing) and kills two Whitecloaks before getting thunked on the head

<fade to back... cut to other scenes>

- back in the Whitecloak camp, Egwene, now also a captive. Bornhold and Byar are talking

- outside, Perrin is chained to the ground, head hung despondantly, as he overhears the Whitecloak's plan to execute him. A disembodied whisper is heard, unintelligible at first, but resolves itself into a wolf-voice : "Help comes!" Perrin's eyes snap open, glowing yellow in the moonlight.

- queue Moiraine's lightning strikes, and wolves charging into the camp as the scene cuts away

<cut back>

- Egwene is alone in the tent, struggling against her bonds while shouts and sounds of confusion are heard outside. Suddenly Lan slips in, frees her, grabs Perrin's axe off the table, and slips out. They find Perrin, already free, and the three rush off into the trees to meet Moiraine & Nyneave. After some drilling questions from Moiraine, and a lot of concerned glances at his eyes, it's revealed that Dapple chewed through Perrin's bonds. (edit- or maybe Elyas frees Perrin. That would probably be less corny than a wolf doing it, and it would strengthen their bond when they meet later on in Ghaeldan.)

______

The whole bit with Byar and the sharp stone, and wearing Whitecloak disguises would not play well on screen, IMO.

@mistborn82 You want to expand Perrin's arc?! Geez, he's the slowest one to grow... except for maybe Nyneave. Yeah, it's well established in the very beginning of EotW that he likes to think things over carefully, but, Light, Jordan waste so much page-space showing how little (if at all) Perrin develops as a character. It's drawn out and boring. He broods over being a Wolfbrother before finally excepting it (like, four book later); he broods over being tied to Rand and feeling trapped in the Stone, until he finally leaves for the Two Rivers; he broods over his marriage because he doesn't understand Saldaean woman are attracted to d-bags... even after Deira straightup TELLS him that's what they want.

Nah, I'd cut he's story out the most. Showing as little of him as possible will make his arc seem to progress quicker.

3 hours ago, NotAWiseOne said:

When you say chapter 10, which book?? Same thing for 'girl squad', no clue what you're referring to...

 

(Finally, and this is purely semantic so I do apologise, this aint a question about the Dragon Reborn!)

Ooooo, you were so close!

OP is referring to chapter 10 of Book Three, The Dragon Reborn. "Girl squad" is (quite obviously, IMO) referring to Nyneave, Elayne, and Egwene.

@RpgCorsair Presumably you're referring to this line: "Six people, Egwene thought, and how many secrets? They all shared more than one, secrets that would have to be kept, perhaps even in the White Tower."

The secrets were that Rand was a male channeler (maybe truly even the Dragon Reborn) and that Moiraine was actively helping him. Another secret was that the Horn of Valere had been found... AND used! That Liandrin was Black Ajah (and the Black Ajah--vehemently denied by Aes Sedai--is actually real.

...There might be more, but I can't recall at this moment.

Hope this helps.

@mistborn82 Egwene deserves to be beaten. Granted, I'm only about 80% through with Path of Daggers on my first complete read-through (and I got the next two books in queue), but Egwene has really be bugging me these last few books. RJ is trying to portray her as this great thinker with complicated plans than need to "click" just right, but she misses the most obvious clues to so many crucial things. Completely dispells my suspension of disbelief.

I'll fully admit, I think this is a flaw in Jordan's writing. He's great at world-building and stringing together a complex plot, but he's not good at creating believable characters.

10 hours ago, mistborn82 said:

@Effeteisn't she too old for Faile.

Maybe. But films have been casting people 10+ years older than the person they're portraying for decades. Why make a stink over it now?

How about Sean Bean because if you need someone killed in a fantasy series, he's your man.

Yes!

Besides, I wouldn't waste Malcolm's talent on a throwaway role. Be'lal literally dies like a bitch. Famous last words: "No..."

I can see Malcolm as Thom Merrilin, though.

2 hours ago, mistborn82 said:

I suppose Doman but I think that trip needs to be there if for no other reason than to show the deep history of Randland.

Doman is also a reoccurring character; he shows up on Toman Head and again in Tanchico. Also, he gives readers (and viewers, potentially) their first glimpse at the Seals.

Yeah, probably.

Healing makes a person weak /hungry because it (most likely) speeds up the target's metabolism and rate of cell growth. It's unknown whether a person will suffer these effects if there's nothing to actually Heal, but if it does indeed speed-up metabolism and promote cell division, then the channeler is essentially robbing minutes, or even days, from a person's life!

When cells divide, they deteriorate a tiny bit each time. Eventually, the genes responsible for producing certain proteins shut down, turning hair hair or causing skin to lose its elasticity, or resulting in other "age-related" problems. It may be possible to Heal someone to death. It'd probably take a very long time, and because the intent is to cause harm, it'd certainly violate the Three Oaths.

If the Oaths aren't an issue, you'd be better of exploding the person's head... or binding them in Air and slitting their throat.

@Dalton Campbell The scale of that picture is way off. The entirety of the United States would fit between the Aryth Ocean and the Spine, with room to spare; it's not possible to fit Randland within the coasts of the US, nevermind the Waste AND part of Shara.

Each WoT mile equals 1.1 real-world miles. The accepted width of Randland being 3500 WoT miles would be equivalent to 3180 RW miles. The average Width of the US is about 2700 miles.

So, just for the sake of completion, I made a Eurasia model.

Might be hard to tell from this image (I had to shrink the resolution to meet the upload requirements; the original is much clearer), but I can confirm some of the things originally brought up in this thread.

• The Jangai Pass is right near the Aral Sea, which supports what Asmodean said about the area, and lends some creedence to the "underground lake" near Rhuidean.

• The Northernmost peaks of the Spine touch the Ural Mountains.

• The Mountain of Mist line up "somewhat" with the Carpathians... if they were shifted about 60° West and raised straight down through the Mediterraneanean Sea and into Libya.

• The mountain lake between Baerlon and the Darkwood would be near the Adriatic Sea. This also places the Sand Hills close to the coast of either Italy or Yugoslavia.

• Windbiter's Finger is smack-dab on the Ahaggar Mountains.

• Illian would be somewhere in Sudan, interestingly, right along the Nile River.

• The island of Far Madding is pretty close to Crete.

Fun stuff! But still just coincidences. ?

Cheers!

You're not stupid! ?

One thing to note is that the Horn of Valere PREDATES the Age of Legends. It was made by people with an understanding of the One Power which far exceeded that of the AoL Aes Sedai, so it's much more "mystical" than the "practical" applications of the One Power we've seen so far.

Lews Theron (and by extension, Rand) is a Hero of Legend, so when Mat blew the horn, the Pattern gave Rand an sort of extrasensory perception. The details are vague (and thus speculative), but it's possible his fight with Ol' Furnace Eyes took place in another dimension, and the Pattern simply broadcast it across the sky.

At least, the official answer, from RJ himself, is that the Pattern created the image to let the world know the Dragon had been Reborn. That's why Mazrim Taim and that other guy in Hadden Mirk also saw the image of the fight, since they were claiming to be the Dragon at the time. The Pattern was done with the need for False Dragons.

Hope this helps!

I find many misconceptions and flawed assumptions with the OP.

Heirarchy

The White Tower has a far more complex heirarchy/social dymamic than Hogwarts. The four Houses of Hogwarts are little more than cliques that any school has (the jocks, the nerds, the stoners, etc.). Their only real function is to garner competition between each other. Likewise, the "years" only serve as a type of de facto seniority, in which upperclassmen are "better than" lowerclassmen merely by the fact they are older. It's like Seniors hazing Freshmen... more or less.

By contrast, the White Tower is far more than just a training ground for Novices and Accepted. Indeed, mosts sisters rarely concern themselves with training young girls. The real heirarchy exists amongst the sisters themselves. The Amyrlin's authority is  balanced by the Hall of Sitters, who are, in turn, pressured by the heads of their respective Ajahs. Inter-politics between Ajahs is brutal at times. Furthermore, every sister, regardless of Ajah, respects (even defers) to a sister who is stronger in the Power. This makes for an extremely complicated set of interweaving politics that Hogwarts doesn't even come close to matching.

Infrastructure

Forgive me, but I don't think you really know what a "proper, European castle" is. The White Tower is very much a castle, in the literally sense: it is a residence fortified with a bailey (Tower grounds) and a surrounding wall. It doesn't matter one lick whether the building is in the middle of a city or nestled somewhere in the highlands of Scotland... that isn't what defines a castle.

Also, I question your assessment that the WT is more "empty" than Hogwarts. The White Tower has many unoccupied rooms because the ability to channel is slowly being culled out of humanity, but it is still full of groundskeepers, servants, supplicants, Warders, soldiers, and trainees (the Younglings were almost all from the Tower, and there's hundreds of them). Hogwarts, by contrast, has a full roster of students, and there are still big, dusty rooms full of junk, entire sections the students aren't allowed to go in, and a huge subterranean vault that not even most of the teachers know about.

Hogwarts is flamboyant in its need to waste space in fanciful ways... the White Tower is built for practicality and function.

Outside Relations

The Wizarding World is full of selfish, arrogant, and ignorant children. They possess an ability that can help all of humanity reach a grand Golden Age free of poverty and starvation, yet they use it for the stupidest sh!t I have ever seen.

The Aes Sedai are also arrogant and gigantic fools, but they still take the "Servants of All" moniker somewhat seriously. Moiraine said that without the Tower, people would forget about the Dark One exists. I honestly doubt that is true (what with all the Trolloc raids into the borderlands), but I think the spirit of the statement is that people still look to the Tower and the AS for guidance. I truly believe that their desire to be "mysterious" and to "stand apart" from common people has done them absolutely no favors. They are mistrusted and feared nearly as much as they're respected.

But the wizards and witches in HP...?

*hmph* They're practically villians the way they secret their power away from public view.

Stumbled upon this (old) thread while doing a similar project. I've got to say, I am NOT a proponent of the "Randland/Waste/Shara = Eurasia" idea. Sure, there are some coincidences in the geography, but too many other things do not line up.

Just for fun I threw together this image. 

I started by creating a mile legend, measuring from the coast of Toman Head (Falme) to the center of the Spine, and assigning it a distance of 3600 miles. Through maths and stuff, I derived a distance marker for 1000 miles (see bottom left of image). I then found accurate "flat maps" (no curvature) of the world, synched-up the legends (see bottom right; slightly faded because the transparency I added), and superimposed them on a WoT world map in conspicuous locations. The margin of error, I estimate, is around 50-100 miles, which (let's be honest) is fairly small at this scale.

Now, I must say, I am not necessarily a proponent of this model either ?, but it does have some fun coincidences.

• The peninsula of Illian lines up neatly with Florida.

• Windbiter's Finger looks like it could be the Baja Peninsula "fliped out" and shattered.

• The Mountains of Mist correspond with the Rockies.

• The Menetherendrelle /Arinelle river system is errily similar to the Missouri /Mississippi river system (and are in almost the same spot).

• Tanchico, which sounds a bit like [San]Francisco, is on the West Coast (albeit, far too high, but the Breaking can account for shifting).

• The Jangai Pass, which we know used to be a coast during the FA, is right on the tip of Newfoundland.

• Shayol Ghul would be on Greenland... an "idyllic island in a cool sea."

Looking at the map, we'll notice that there is enough land mass between N.Amer, S.Amer, and Africa to account for the entirety of Randland, The Waste, and Shara. That is, if we pull in Alaska and the Yukon, then squish it all together.

Again, I just did this for funsies... I'm not pushing this model as an accurate one. If anything, take it as a warning to not treat the coincidences in the R/W/S=Eurasia model to be proof positive. Coincidences can be found anywhere.

I'm actually really interested in the "Two Rivers = South Carolina" model. That would at least begin to explain the Sand Hills. ?

Cheers folks!

Ah, thanks!

I don't have the Companion book (I'm only starting book 8 now), so that explains it. ☺️