54 minutes ago, Agitel said:

They're condensing TGH and TDR into a single plot arc. 

I don’t think that they can combine Tear and Falme if the Seanchan are still landing in the West. I could see the two arcs running something in parallel, but I don’t think that they’ll be completely combined. 

I'm pretty interested in how they'll approach S2. I presume that they won't want to confine S2 to solely tGH, but it doesn't seem like they're taking the approach of merging Falme and Tear given that the Seanchan are still landing along the western coast, and I don't think they'd necessarily want to do tGH in episodes 1-4 and tDR in episodes 5-8. In terms of big tGH plot points that are still definitely going to happen Egwene's collaring is the one you can't really work around at all very much; you can't skip it because of how foundational it is for her, but you need the Seanchan for it, and the Seanchan can only be in certain places. I wonder how this all will shake out!

It seems like the loose groupings for the season will likely be Rand/Selene, Perrin/Lan/Moiraine/(eventually) Mat, and Elayne/Egwene/Nynaeve (no surprise there, of course).

7 minutes ago, EmreY said:

As an aside, how many seasons is this show supposed to go on for? 

Rafe's ideal scenario appears to be 8 seasons. We'll see what they actually get, but if the show is a big success it's at least somewhat possible.

5 minutes ago, flinn said:

 I just watched it. He said exactly what I said he said.

I just watched it as well. He didn't say that he wasn't allowed to consult on episodes 7 and 8. He said that they weren't able to bring him in to consult until shooting had finished because Barney Harris's departure from the show was a huge crisis & they didn't have time for in-depth input while doing massive rewrites, which I think is understandable. He DID still consult on the episodes, just during editing.

Overall, a solid ending to the season, I think. Moiraine being stilled/tied-off shielded (the latter, I hope!) is a good hook for Season 2, all of the characters are in interesting places, and Ishamael was great.

While I'm enjoying the show quite a bit overall, I'd say that my main concern with the show right now is that I don't think that the show has fully established what it means that Rand is the Dragon. As some others have noted, he hasn't done very much that's immediately impressive to the show-only viewer, and the show hasn't gone into why the Dragon is supposed to be such a fearsome thing (which was partially undercut already by the choice to put Egwene and Nynaeve into the running).

This is something that S2 can pretty easily rectify, but it's important to emphasize why the Dragon is such a singular entity not just through characters talking about it, but having Rand do stuff that it's immediately obvious that no other character can do.

I can understand why having Rand obliterate the army at the Gap would be hard to do in the show because you don't want to introduce gateways this early to get him from the Eye to the Gap, and because you can't go into weird lore about the Eye the way it was in the books to explain why Rand is able to haul off and blow up an entire army with no training, but it would have gone a long way as a demonstration of the Dragon's raw power for show-only viewers. They'll need to do something like this in S2 to set him apart from the rest of the pack, even other very strong channelers like Nynaeve.

While I understand why people think that the show will handle Moiraine's departure in a materially different fashion by keeping her around, I fully expect it to be largely the same trajectory as the books, in that she will 'die' saving Rand in either S3 or S4, then return for the final season, which would very optimistically be S8. While Moiraine is the main character right now, that must necessarily shift to the EF5, as they have far more room for growth and development as characters than Moiraine does, and all the "big picture" narratives revolve around them. What's more, keeping Moiraine around would seriously crimp the character arcs of Rand, Nynaeve, and Lan in particular.

With that in mind, I think she makes her dramatic exit and dramatic return in roughly the same fashion as the books. I quite like what they've done to tie Moiraine and Siuan together much more closely, as it will make what happens to Siuan even more upsetting than it is in the books, and will make Moiraine's return that much sweeter as well. Can you imagine Siuan going along with the rescue squad? My goodness, but that would be some must-watch TV.

18 hours ago, flinn said:

 This really isnt the line I draw in the sand. I dont like they made Mat a thief, but it isnt a deal breaker.

 

 But come on now... how anyone can see Mat doing it as honorable is beyond me.

 

 Rand said he "lost count" of how much Mat lost... he only needed 1 mark from Fain to get the lanterns...

 

 I guess we now can say Rand cant count past 1?

 

 or lets go with the simple thing... they made Mat into a thief.

 

it really only bothers me because Mat (who is one of my all time favorite characters in any genre) was always a really good person, no matter what his mouth said. He may grumble and complain and say "I would never do such a thing", but when push comes to shove, he always ALWAYS did the right thing.

 

 that is no longer Mat.

Mat in the first 2 books bears very little resemblance to the Mat we all love. I have every confidence that the show Mat will get over these issues and grow as a person. This is simply being set up as an early conflict for him because he really doesn't have much to work with from EotW and tGH.

2 hours ago, Vartija said:

When Dana has Rand & Mat cornered with the sword she says: "I see you. At night, in my dreams. All five of you. But only one of you matters."

 

Five? Does that mean Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene... and Nynaeve? I assumed only the boys & Egwene were the ones they were after, them being ta'veren. So is Nynaeve still a potential Dragon despite being 25?

I'd assume that the Forsaken/DF don't know Nynaeve's exact age. After all, Moiraine had to get it out of her personally, and they certainly haven't had a chance to.

I don't mind the Mat changes because (if we're being honest) Mat sucks in EotW and tGH and doesn't become the Mat we all know and love until tDR. He has basically no real character in the first 2 books and is completely insufferable. That works OK for the books due to the way they're set up, but the show had to give him more of a meaningful conflict early on, and I think the family drama is a fine way to do it.

2 hours ago, Agitel said:

 

You basically just said that someone's wife above has a sub-70 IQ, and plenty of show-only watchers avoiding book spoilers are still guessing. So your assertion here is really off target and kind of insulting. You're approaching it all with book knowledge.

It's quite disappointing that such condescension towards others' intelligence is still a big part of fantasy literature fandom/culture. Of course folks who have 0 knowledge of the books will not automatically identify Rand. Additionally, many show viewers are going to engage with the series quite casually and not really care enough to think deeply about the mystery. That doesn't mean that they're not intelligent, just that they don't really care enough to spend time or energy theorizing.

A very unfortunate circumstance, and we can only hope that it's not due to any kind of serious health issues, physical, mental, or otherwise. As other posters have observed, given the nature of EotW Mat vs. later Mat, this is probably the best major character to recast after season 1 if you had to do one, but it certainly still is rather distressing to see happen. We'll just have to hope that the show is well-made enough that it can take this hit and keep on moving, as if it can, people will get past this very quickly.

1 hour ago, AusLeviathan said:

I think this might actually be a truly unique situation.

 

A main role recast before they've even really done the media tour for season 1, I imagine it wasn't supposed to be announced until after season 1 finished airing.

 

Reflecting on it I think if there was a main role to be recast this was probably the best one to do it for. As long as they kept Mat in season 1 mostly the same as he was in EotW it should be fine.

I can't imagine that there's any way Mat's actor would have been included on the media tour, so people probably would have tumbled to the fact that something was going on pretty quickly regardless.

On 9/10/2021 at 6:41 PM, redgiant said:

 

Um, one of Jordan's strengths is tying all sorts of seemingly innocuous plot points and people/places/things together later ... often MUCH later like across books.

 

Rhuidean...forward and back...AoL...the sequence showing a young Someshta, the banner, the horn, alluding to the remaining younger less tainted male channelers going off to do something (create the untainted pool of Saidin).

 

So now, is all of that reference trashed? God I get mad just thinking about the snowball effect on some of the coolest harkings in the story when things are needlessly omitted or changed like the GM sequence. Because later things will likewise have to be dropped or made utterly moot since their back references are no longer in the story. WoT is full of cases such as this. This is precisely why I loved the books so much, all the webs of relationships not readily apparent until later or you put the pieces together.

 

Btw, what was the budget of this show again? I am tired of hearing about "too expensive" with the money this show has to spend.

 

The way this is going, they'll just have Wile E. Coyote step out of the closet with a sign printed with the name of Asmodean's killer. Why make us poor put-upon audience of 2-year olds have to think, right?

I am very well aware of Jordan's strengths, thank you - there is no need for a passive-aggressive tone. TV and literature are different mediums. You simply cannot expect the TV show to include all of the tiny worldbuilding details, minor characters, etc that flesh out the world of the books. It doesn't work with the constraints of the format. The Green Man is an extremely minor character whose race is completely irrelevant to the rest of the series with the exception of a few Age of Legends flashbacks. Casting him and creating all that CGI is an awful lot of work for a one-off job, and is liable to confuse casual show viewers when this being is never really brought back or expounded upon in any way.

The AoL flashback you reference works pretty much just as well without the Green Man. The core of the AoL flashbacks are Lews Therin and the Forsaken, plus the Aiel. The presence of the Nym is some interesting extra flavor, but it's by no means required to convey the core messages needed.

On 9/12/2021 at 5:51 AM, Guire said:

Will showrunners allow any of the main characters to complete story arc without a relationship?  For example will Egwene complete arc only having limited romance with Rand if Gawyn is cut.  Or Perrin if Faile/Laila are killed or never materialize.  This could be an interesting hero journey if they do.  Or would that be anti-woke having lead female not have time for love because she is saving the world. ?

I kind of expect Egwene to end the show without a love interest. Her relationship towards the end is more a drag on her arc of sacrifice for the Tower than it is anything else, in terms of diluting her love for the Tower and what the Aes Sedai stand for as the motivation behind most/all of her actions. Most of the others are tougher. Faile is the only one I could even remotely see being dropped, but she's much more important to Perrin's development than Gawyn is to Egwene's, so I expect she'll stay.

12 hours ago, Guire said:

Elayne pregnancy is great cut.  Lots of her storyline is actually ripe for cutting.

 

Mat/Toun is really good story arc.  Lots of changes would need to be made to get Mat as general of entire army at last battle if he isnt Prince of Ravens.  I always read this arc as Mat would eventually wear her down and Aes Sedai would become something different in Seanchan Empire.  Especially since Tuon could channel.

 

Either kill off Gawyn early or dont include him.  Might be interesting if Faile gets killed by Masema and grieving Perrin turns to old friend Egwene for comfort.  She bonds him.  When she dies he goes into mega wolf berserker rage and rampages through valley at Shayol Gul.

I should clarify, I'm here for Mat and Tuon shenanigans. They have some fun storylines. I just don't want Mat and Tuon to end up married unless Tuon on the show develops far further than she does in the book.

I kinda think he gets cut, because introducing this random magical race which never shows up again will confuse the heck outta more casual show-only viewers. I don't think he really adds anything to the TV show, & can thus safely be cut.

1. Elayne pregnancy plotline. Does nothing but hinder her in the climactic section of the story.
2. Mat/Tuon marriage. I would be fine with her being a love interest as of the end of the story, but the idea that Mat ends up essentially shackled to someone who's a staunch advocate for and propagator of slavery? Ugh. If they do keep the marriage, the series simply must really emphasize that she needs to meet him way over on his side of the middle.
3. Gawyn. He is not even remotely needed for the TV series and will only drag Egwene down.

The Boys is one of Amazon's biggest shows right now and seems likely to run for at least 5 seasons (if they want to) as a result. I'd be over the moon if WoT did as well as The Boys.

The issue with focusing on books 1-4 and the Last Battle to the exclusion of the others is that it seriously under-serves Mat and Egwene. They could do it - but I don't think that they should. Both Mat's memories/the Band and Egwene as the Amyrlin are the keystones for those characters' stories and will need a good deal of screentime.

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2. Keep the first 3-4 seasons pretty faithful to Books 1-4 (IMO the best of WOT - masterpiece quality), then cut massively from books 5-11, consolidating the high points from those books into a couple of seasons, before the final act of Books 12-14.
 

This is a tricky one. While Books 1-4 are really stellar in terms of material for Rand and Perrin, several hugely important plotlines for other characters fall after this time period but before Tarmon Gai'don (for example, Mat's memories and the Band, Egwene and the Tower, Aviendha channeling, Elayne retaking the throne, etc). Some of these could be compressed into a season or two pretty easily, but with others it'd be much more difficult, and I'm not sure you could do them justice if squeezed into like 2 seasons between books 1-4 and books 12-14. Mat in particular would be really hurt by this, I think.

One answer here is to extensively rejigger plotlines, and they may do just that; but assuming a run of 8 season, Season 4 finishing at Book 6 at least sounds about right.

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3. Keep the focus on Rand where it belongs. Nothing wrong with Mor and the Super Girls - they all play important parts and have good storylines - but don’t go overboard with the “woke.”
 

This is a bit unrealistic in the context of how the medium works, I'd say. While we see a huge portion of tEotW through Rand's eyes, that simply isn't how things work in the context of a TV show, and lots and lots of stuff will be happening onscreen when Rand's not around. I imagine all the original Two Rivers crew will have fairly equal screentime out the gate, especially since they cannot obviously favor Rand if they want to keep some mystery about who is the Dragon Reborn.

After that, it's in no small part a coinflip to see which characters connect more strongly with audiences. Much like GoT did, WoT TV will adjust as the show goes along to give more screentime to "breakout" characters even if it exceeds the scope of their role in the books. Ultimately, I expect that while the whole show certainly will pivot on the Dragon Reborn and the events he sets in motion, we will likely end up with at least several other characters having similar (if not greater) screentime to Rand.

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4. Flesh out the Forsaken from the one-dimensional baddies in the books into really interesting, conflicted characters. Like what GOT did with most of its bad guys. Most of them weren’t always evil. What made them turn?

This they definitely need to do, and can likely achieve it quite easily, especially if they dramatically cull the ranks of the Forsaken (as seems likely).

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5. Make the bad guys more competent. That means killing off some important protagonists earlier.

If by this you mean killing off major characters significantly earlier than it happens in the books, well, I would be shocked if this happens.

Whether or not Gawyn gets cut or written out early is an interesting question, and probably has more to do with whether or not they want a love interest for Egwene than anything else. From a TV perspective, Gawyn isn't really needed anywhere. His role in Siuan's escape isn't important, he doesn't really matter for Elayne's plotline, and he isn't really important for the Tower civil war, which will certainly focus far more on channelers in the TV version. Which leaves his relationship with Egwene as his sole major involvement with a protagonist, and that's not particularly important for Egwene's character arc so much as it exists to give her some romance.

Given current trends in writing and my own personal bias against the Gawyn and Egwene relationship, I would expect them not to give her a relationship, and so the more I think about it the more I think he well might be cut entirely or written out early. I'm probably wrong, though. I do think Galad is 100% a lock to stay because, as other posters have noted, the Whitecloaks appear set to play a prominent role in the show, and he is both a vehicle to show us the internal workings of the Whitecloaks and to (eventually) reform them for use in the climax.

On 3/25/2020 at 10:21 PM, Effete said:

Doman is also a reoccurring character; he shows up on Toman Head and again in Tanchico. Also, he gives readers (and viewers, potentially) their first glimpse at the Seals.

Domon may be a recurring character, but as much as I like him he's sadly a prime candidate for cutting. He doesn't really do anything that somebody else couldn't, since literally any character could be given that seal, and while he does have his plotline with Egeanin, she's another one who could readily be cut. Tuon will likely be introduced much earlier on the show as the face of the Seanchan, so having Egeanin becomes less important. I frankly expect that neither of them will have more than a bit part in the show.

On 1/27/2020 at 12:05 PM, redgiant said:

I think a central issue surrounding a lot of decisions that otherwise may seem unrelated, is the simple fact that in adapting the books to the screen, you cannot telegraph that Rand is uber-special too early. It is also why Morraine is advertised as being the center figure for now. Having unique scenes that highlight him too much is a dead giveaway for those who haven't read the books but that they need to secure as interested viewers.

 

Rand falling over the wall and meeting Elayne just seems like another one of those obvious scenes that give away too much about him. ESPECIALLY if the wall story leads up to Rand and Elaida whispering to him. Unless they balance him with Perrin's wolf story and Matt's dagger story in a way that doesn't just scream "THIS is the story that realy matters".

 

They may focus more on Logain's capture on-screen as a way to sort of mute this part of Rand's focus for a while, as well as up Logain's presence in general (which is something else I think they are trying to do).

 

If the goal is to reveal something is up with the boys and maybe Rand in particular, I would think that is best saved for Meetings at the Eye.

I'm of the opposite mind. I don't think that there's any reason for the show to be cute about whether or not Rand is the Dragon Reborn when it's confirmed by the end of the first book and fairly obvious quite a bit sooner, if not immediately (we don't see any PoV of the other EF residents getting attacked, after all). It was never much of a point of suspense, and if they keep the moment where Rand saves himself with the ship boom aboard the riverboat, every  show viewer who cares enough to read or watch speculation is going to know he's the channeler. The meeting with Elayne is one of the highlights of EotW (at least for me) and would be a real shame to cut.

As for Min, I kinda expect her to pop up at the Queen's Blessing, but I expect she'll be such a small role in S1 that she'll quite likely fly under the radar.

On 12/31/2019 at 9:55 AM, Sabio said:

Also makes you wonder how many episodes a season they are planning on.  Book 1 IMO is too important to rush through and try to handle in like 4 episodes.

 

Some books like book 3 and many of the later books you can condense, but there are a few books that are too important to the story to condense too much.  But a lot will depend on how many episodes they are thinking of.   Say if it was 12 episodes they could probably do a book 1 and 2 for a season.

4-5 episodes for EotW might suffice, depending on how they did it. Episode 1 for the Two Rivers & fleeing, episode 2 for Shadar Logoth & the separation, episode 3 for everybody on the road & reuniting at the end, episode 4 for the Ways & Shienar to set up Tarwin's Gap, then either do Tarwin's Gap and the Eye of the World at the end of 4 or in an episode 5. EotW has a lot of important setup, but also a ton of stuff they can compress if they like.

I would be shocked if there's any spanking in the show, both because it won't play well with audiences, and because, as mentioned, there's a clear fetish angle to it in the books which will not jive with a show positioning itself as a more feminist take on fantasy. The corporal punishment will most likely be pulled way back in general, but there's no reason that the any spanking vital to the plot (if there is such a thing) can't be replaced with the implication of a switching instead.