Decided to look at the books for comparison (been a while since I opened them)

So the A'dam in the books:

1. Damane can't handle knives:

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Egwene took a deep breath and reached for the hilt. A soft quiver ran through the muscles of her arm. As her hand came within a foot of the knife, a cramp suddenly contorted her fingers. Eyes fixed, she tried to force her hand closer. The cramp seized her  whole  arm,  knotting  muscles  to  her  shoulder.  With  a  groan,  she  sank  back, rubbing her arm and concentrating her thoughts on not touching the knife. Slowly, the pain began to lessen.

 

Min stared at her incredulously. "What ...? I don't understand."

 

"Damane  are  not  allowed  to  touch  a  weapon  of  any  kind."  She  worked  her arm, feeling the tightness go. "Even our meat is cut for us. I don't want to hurt myself, but  I  could  not  if  I  did  want  to.  No  damane  is  ever  left  alone  where  she  might  jump from a height —that window is nailed shut —or throw herself in a river."

2. Similar to the TV (the pitcher scene in the book) - can't handle anything they even think of as a weapon:

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Egwene  went  on  dully,  as  if  the  other  woman  had  not  spoken.  "They  are training me, Min. The sul'dam and the a'dam are training me. I cannot touch anything I  even  think  of  as  a  weapon.

3. Yet Damane can touch the collar and lesh other Marath'damane. Clearly they don't view the collar or the act of leashing as a weapon/use of a weapon

Quote

"Aye, mayhap it will be as  you say. But I will remember it until I die. Ryma, help  me.  That  is  what  she  did  scream.  And  one  of  the  damane  did  fall  down  crying, 
and they did put one of those collars on the neck of the ... woman, and I ... I did run." 
 

The only issue left is if torture would trigger the A'dam's "weapon" limitation. And in the Books, Aes Sedai oaths against using the one power as a weapon isn't a limitation if they torture. And from point 2 above and TV - it is a perspective thing too.

So I definitely don't find an issue with Egwene collaring Renna, following a similar logic with the books

Regardless, I do not think the A'dam is a weapon.

From recollection the book also has the limitation that a Damane cannot pick up anything they think is a weapon, and they can collar other marath'damane just fine.

The A'dam is really just a leash and at best it can torture. We know that Book Aes Sedai do not consider torture a "weapon" either from an oaths perspective. And the words TV Renna said in s2e06 are "Egwene, a damane cannot touch any object she believes to be a weapon." So, I personally never felt any issue with Egwene picking up the collar from that perspective.

24 minutes ago, LightHelpMe said:

The a'dam is a tool, but it is used to cause physical pain when Damane need to be punished. We saw that with both Egwene & Renna and with Nyaneave & Seta, so I don't understand why you think it only causes mental pain.

I expressed myself poorly. I meant that the pain does not originate from a physical source (hence the reference to the pitcher).

5 minutes ago, LightHelpMe said:

It was clear by her explanation that she had already figured it out. And the double linking isn't possible either. The whole thing was a mess.

Even if she had figured out, which seems like a huge leap of faith, it is still a tool to restrict rather than hurt. And the hurt was only of a mental form, not even physical. We only know she cannot phsyically hurt someone based on the water pitcher. 

I mean, single linking is already problematic. If the A'dam forms a link - Why does the Damane direct the flow when the Sul'dam heads the link? Everyone just choses to ignore that anyway because "magic"

Interesting thought - if only 1 woman wears the Domination Band (Male A'dam), does this mean the man can wrest control of the flow (in a link with a man and a woman, the man can wrest control). Actually can't recall much about them now.

17 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

Now everyone is sayng this goes against the books but, at any point in the books did we ever see a similar situation, I am not saying infer, or guess did we ever see an Aes Sedai have the option of either do nothing and a worse evil happens, or risk an innocent and stop that great evil. 

Top of my head:

Book 2 - Siuan? or one of the Aes Sedai commented how they called the winds to speed up cuz they were in a rush and were so sad they flooded villages on the way, damaging crops and basically f up the weather. They were rushing to meet Moiraine and see to see Rand I think.

Book 3? Elayne tried being smart with Verin by saying blowing up the ground near a whitecloak(?) does not constitute using the one power as a weapon. Now Verin did give her a earful. But at the same time, if Elayne had the oaths and genuinely believed she complied with the oaths, she would be to have done so. So I guess the interpretation of why certain events constitute the one power as a weapon is probably indoctrinated by the white tower.

25 minutes ago, LightHelpMe said:

I would rather have seen Nyaneave and Elayne execute their plan, because you know the first question they asked Seta was how to remove an a'dam. Egwene could have done with Renna from there, and we wouldn't have the problem of how Egwene was able to touch something she intended to use to hurt her Suldam.

I am probably in the minority, but I rather liked Egwene freed herself. It was a surprise when it happened, but it felt satisfying to me as a resolution.

I don't really have issues with Egwene touching the collar. While she suspects that Sul'dam can channel, she doesn't actually know it would work. She only worked it out for sure once the collar formed. I feel that in that heat of the situation she is hoping that it works and snares Renna - the intent to hurt psychically probably formed once she knew for sure it worked.

The thing that puzzled me more was - who was heading the link? But then the a'dam is always rather weird even in the novels because while the person wearing the braclet heads the link and therefore directs the flow, she can allow the collar-ed person to direct the flow in the books. It was always a strange rule.

3 hours ago, Mirefox said:

Damane pacifiers as one of the worst props of the show?

Probably discussed elsewhere (haven't had the chance to read all the forums yet!) - I think they are a callback to slave mouth pieces used in real world history. Also pretty demeaning with the infantile association in modern day and the fact that the damane has to leave it on willingly showing how much control the sul'dam have over them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave_iron_bit

I thought it was a pretty effective prop as the collar visually did not bring the same sense of horror when Egwene had to wear it - at least it did for me.

9 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

7-11 are some of my fav books as well, in fact my love of the series is a bell curve, book 1 for me is one of the weakest, followed then by Sandersons 3, then 2 and 3 so yes the 6 books that bookend the series for me are the weakest of the series, and yest I keep coming back lol. 

I agree with you! 

I think 1 is the poorest, though 13 ties very close to poorest. I understand that BS is not RJ and he was trying to finish someone else's book and I don't hold it against him. I enjoy the books BS writes - they entertain me. But one thing that BS loves that bleeds through too much in WOT are characters wise-cracking (which I think is also common in a lot of American action shows than say British) - characters laughing in the face of danger cuz oh how cool and calm as a cucumber the heroes are. Now not all his characters does that in his books (before anyone brings out the scythe), but it is a trait he uses a lot - and I notice quite common in a lot of the English fantasy webnovels on Royal Road or Wattpad - possibly influenced by the action shows. It is fine in his series since you get use to the setting, but it was so jarring having a whole book of Matt wisecracking. 

Then i think next poorest was 14 and a close tie between 2/12.

What i really enjoyed about 2 were the WT scenes and watching the dynamic of the AS unfold. I also love intro of the Seanchan (horrifying as they were). I didn't like most of the Portal Stones scenes. It was strange to introduce yet another travelling device, with a dream sequence alternate reality thing similar to the arches as well. It felt like RJ suddenly felt that all his characters need to live through VR to drive home how they are no longer farmers/blacksmit/wisdom.

I must admit, I have not re-read WoT since AMoL (did tonnes of re-read at the release of each book from 7-14. This in itself is unusual - I do not like re-reading stuff. WoT will always hold a special place in my heart. I am still surprised after 10 years how much I remember from WoT compared to other books I've read. Really strange details linger including some minor charc scene.

The TV series have been a fun way to re-live the series. It isn't perfect, but it is fun to recall events and watch how they try to adapt them to screen - and ponder why certain tweaks were made - some more obvious than others.

Also, it has been fun going through WoT forum! - I have not done that in a long long time (especially since I use to lurk in a lot of those forums in my long lost younger years)

I don't know if I can make myself wade through book 1 again - If I ever re-read, I'll probably jump to 2, but it feels like cheating!

On 9/21/2023 at 11:49 PM, SinisterDeath said:

 

I'd maintain that the only way to have a "1:1" live-action adaptation of the Wheel of Time, is to make this extremely low budget, as that's the only way you're going to be able to afford 1:10th of the actors you'd need for named characters in the books. Maybe we could have handed this over to Bollywood and they could have done a fairly decent job at it...

If a 1:1 screen adaptation is to be made, I think it might be possible if it is done using 3D animation. 3D animation isn't the most pretty (you are not talking like the Cinema quality type - but pushing it out weekly quickly). The Chinese have been adapting chinese Webnovels into 3D animation for a while and those webnovels can be atrociously long and laborious to read.

An example of one that was fully adapted is Douluo Dalu (Some translations call it Soul land) - they adapted the entire Webnovel into 3D animation over 5 years, screening about 15-18 mins per week (and while it made changes, it is surprisingly close to the source material compared). 

The first novel with the first MC has about 300ish chapters - thereabouts. So it isn't short. 

During COVID as everyone was working from home, the episodes were reduced by about 5 mins per episodes so they could churn it out weekly.

They obviously try to end each episode at a cliff hanger, but sometimes they will end at unusual spots in the narrative cuz.... that's just where the story lands in the Webnovel.

They have since moved on to Soul land 2 (the 2nd protaganist). That webnovel itself has like over a thousand chapters - but they have also reduced fights that last over 2 chapters to half an episode.

However, not sure if it would work with WoT TBH as those books tend to focus on only 1 MC. With WOT having so many charc, I think it would be a challenge to remember all those faces of characters you might see maybe 2-4 times over all the books

On 12/27/2022 at 9:37 AM, Scarloc99 said:

I will be honest, Eye of the world was a struggle

haha! I hate the eotw so so much. I bought the series when RJ was up to book 6. And the ONLY reason went past book 1 was because I already bought more than 1 book (i think I bought the first 3 at least). I was around 14 or 15 at that time, and buying books from my pocket money wasn't cheap. So I gritted my teeth through book 1.

I started to enjoyed book 2 onwards.

I've done a few re-reads when new books were released but I usually either skip eotw or speed read through it. I've not re-read since amol though. Not sure if I will - I don't think i can stomach reading book 1 without jumping to book 2.

18 hours ago, trw1972 said:

Another long term reader here who registered just to discuss the show with other readers - i may have had a membership years ago, i used to spend a lot of time on wotmania and theoryland back in the day.

Me too! 

I am surprised I still had my Dragonmount account LOL - decided to login to see what people think after binging of S2 (i waited till all episodes are up before I sub to prime).

S2 was a fun ride - I enjoyed more than S1. Though to be fair, I hated Eye of the World. I always thought eotw was an awful book. So the adaptation probably reasonated less with me. The ONLY reason i got through eye of the world was that I already bought the subsequent books and gritted my teeth through it.

Enjoyed book 2 onwards (and actually love the dreaded 7-11 books - no accounting my awful taste in books!)

1 hour ago, Gypsum said:

where any 'fact' that an Aes Sedai convinces herself to be true (whether it is or not) gets her around them

Well in tGS:

Other posters have posted possible ways that Moiraine got round the oaths. While some of the proposed scenarios are possible due to TV Moiraine appearing more fanatical, I do wish it was cleaner or more straight forward. 

If exclusion for Shadow Spawn and Darkfriend were left in Oath 3 for the TV, I think it would have been a sufficient call back to tGS Elaida. Heck, the fact that Rand was last seen with Lanfear not long before, it wouldn't be far fetched for Moiraine to wrongly assume Rand was captured by Lanfear (therefore darkfriend exclusion can be applied) - and a great way to show how beliefs are what make the oaths work.

Be interesting to see if they resolve this in S3 like they did with the Ferry in S1

19 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I agree that it should be a weave. I don't think it should have the time-altering properties from the books. More like it just burns that soul from the pattern.

I hope it have the time altering properties.

It shouldn't be too expensive to include that as you only need a few scenes to establish what it does in the first instance then for future scenes to "skip" to the altered timeline.

Though... I can see it dropped because it might be quite confusing to remember for pure TV viewers. (Unless every episode it features start with a "previously" snippet explaining the temporal effects again)

Just now, Elder_Haman said:

If he were battling all out, he wouldn't just stand in place throwing fire. He would use balefire, wouldn't he? Or use a more creative weave that attacked from behind Egwene's shield.

Very good point!!

We have to wait and see if Balefire is in the TV medium - but I believe it should it. It is quite important

16 minutes ago, Samt said:

Okay.  I may have forgotten that part.  But the point is the same.  He holds her off a bit for flavor but is clearly outmatched without Sakarnen.  
 

Narratively, there is a big difference between giving a villain some inexplicable power in order to give the hero something to overcome and letting the hero have inexplicable power against the villain.  

TBH I don't really see the difference narratively. Like I get plot-armor has to happen for drama, but it felt like they both overstepped on rules established so far in their respective medium.

However, I had 10 years to get over that scene in the book. That's why it illicit a laugh out of me because it felt like a call back to the scene (or maybe it was just me - it was a scene that really really bothered me at that time. I only read AOML once and this scene is still quite burnt in my mind).

That said, I do think that it is possible that TV Ishy is playing a long game. But if he were battling all out, definitely in the equally silly pile for me.

15 minutes ago, Samt said:

  Hide contents

Pretty sure that M'hael is using Sakarnen at that point.  It's two very powerful channelers each with a very powerful Sa'angreal.  Comments about will power in that context are more flavor than literal, I would say.  That's not comparable to Egwene holding off Ishamael with no real combat training or experience (and being the weaker channeler overall anyways).  

 

On 10/7/2023 at 1:28 PM, Jaysen Gore said:

Bad Points

....

- Egwene holding off Ishamael as long as she did. 

 

It reminded me of a scene in AMOL:

It got a chuckle out of me. 

I personally have no issue with the mystery of the Dragon possibly being female or "5-headed". 

Real world religion about reincarnation - you can be reincarnated as someone of a different gender, hell, even animals. 

How would information about reincarnation be available in WoT that people would have absolutely certain a person must reincarnate according to their gender? Not like people get to come back from the dead and talk about their past lives with any regularity. I think (memory foggy) it was suggested that some insane people may have connection with their past lives in the books.

Even in the books, the belief that Balefire destroy the soul is false, yet it is information perpetuated by forsaken and AS, and is information none of the book characters ever learn even at the end of WoT. Why would information about one specific individual's reincarnation cycle be any more accurate?

I rather enjoy the mystery this time around. If anything, I felt the books never satisfactorily explained Moiraine/Lan disregard Rand's hair (that every other character makes reference to) and thaty they would accept (a then super-antagonist) Nynaeve would tell the truth that they were all born in TR?

Theoryland's databse of interview has this entry:

Damer Flinn having one hand?  The only character I recall that lost a hand was Rand; Knife of Dreams.

 

Cindaking?  I do not recall a place with that name.

Interesting point. He learned his healing "weaving" with his fingers and that would form part of his weave

Straight guy - saldaea (on the farms, not as a soldier)

Straight gal - andor

Gay guy - tear

Gay gal - far madding

Are there any Chanelers who are strong but unskilled?

 

Like, there are two tropes on tv tropes. Unskilled but strong and Weak but skilled. and they mean pretty much what they imply.

 

I was just curious if I've missed something. It seems that all channeleres who are strong in the power are also prodigies when it comes to memorizing and utilizing weaves as well. Is this an actual thing intended by RJ and BS or is it just that all the main characters are amazing because they're main characters?

Verin‘s circle drove off graendal (who possess a minor angreal), and verin had the harder task of protecting 3 in her circle (and failed to keep the weakst alive).

Alivia had a paralis net and angreal and came out quite mangled

But at the end of the day combat is as such skill as it is luck. Otherwise we will have to conclude graendal is better than cyndane and mog.

Though as Suttree asked above:

Curious as to what else you would have her do considering she had been hearing word of Dark Rand's atrocities and at that point his plan was basically break the seals and pray Min came up with the key to sealing the bore(essentially he had no plan). There was no other realistic option for her to take.

 

What did you think her course of action should have been then? I am curious too.

Pretty certain WO were only in the circle with that Asha'man and none of the AS linked.

 

So, let me get this straight: Egwene dies, along with her discovery of maybe the single-greatest spell EVER!  Now nobody will rediscover that weave for thousands of years, if ever!  Common!!!

 

I thought it was a rather silly weave, perhaps if I ever reread the book it will make more sense but at the time I thought it was rather silly. But remember that as the wheel turns that weave shall be rediscovered so you don't have to feel bad.

 

I didn't think it needed a name - or if it was to be given one, it should be posthumous. Didn't think the weave itself was silly though.

It was either that, or Egwene picking up an iron shield (can't be a sword I guess due to 2nd oath - though iron shield probably would be near impossible to carry) with air - hurl it at Taim - turn it into cuendillar - and shield bash Taim to death through the balefire. Less glamorous though ^^