so was balthamel killing aes sedai in crossroads for actual reasons? (like keeping relationships with Ash'aman from getting off the ground) or is he just throwing a tantrum?

She came into Salidar claiming close relations with Cabriana (the AS tortured by Semi). 

We saw in New Spring that Cabrina, Anaiya and Kairen were close, and it was subsequently confirmed by Niaso when she did enquiries. Presumably, Anaiya and Kairen were killed to keep Halima's cover story.

Hi Fionwe,

We obviously read parts of the book differently - and your points regarding Rand vs Egwene are valid, but my point was that RJ should have given Egwene more "air time" for that change.

From tGH we had Rand forced to become a reluctant leader by Moiraine's manipulation and it culminated in the tSR at the taking of Tear. You have 2 books to lead up to this leadership business.

With Egwene, within LoC-LoC OR LoC-CoS. Even if RJ had given LoC-LoC itself a timeline of 5 years, it would have been a completely unsatisfying a change - I want to read about it (and of course I risk the Egwene haters saying something but whatever). And as to not realising Egwene was set up to be Amyrlin: on the first read - never caught onto it. It was a plausible explanation to have a puppet, but that it completely caught me by surprise.

Regarding that Amys quote, you should read on regarding Merana just within that scene. The affection you see seem to vanish more and more as the WO accepts her decision to be Amyrlin Seat. It felt like a gulf growing between themselves in front of our eyes whatever Egwene thought of Amys - which may have been true in LoC, but I think it emphasizes how it would no longer true. We will have to agree to disagree on this.

David mentioned about Elayne cartwheelling - lemme just say the sticking point for that scene is not the cartwheels but that bridge of Air - it had me running back to EoTW to find Moiraine's quote on what AS can do for themselves. RJ would have gotten away with Elayne doing triple flips and got away with it for the shock that bridge of Air gave me - but anyway, this is an Egwene's thread.

 

I think that often people cite Egwene's experience with the Aiel and her lessons from Siuan as sufficient to explain her competence by the time the AS are reunited.  For me the timescales are too short - Egwene is with the Aiel for only about 6 months, and her training with Siuan prior to capture is only about 3 months.  In my books this is way too short a time for her to develop the skills, knowledge, and confidence to be a succesful Amyrlin. 

 

 

I can't remember what the time scale was, but with Egwene, but I agree with you. Without actually remembering the time scale (or being aware of it), the point I was trying to make to Fionwe, was that I always felt like RJ missed out one book worth of character development for Egwene during LoC-LoC/LoC-CoS. He was probably rushing to have her kidnapped by the WT (and probably had far too many plots running at that point in time).

 

 

 

Just within LoC you had her mooning over Gawyn like the girl from the village, scared shitless in the raising ceremony and then super amyrlin. 

 

She became super-Amyrlin in LoC? I think you're mixing up what happened later with what happened in LoC. The only things she achieved in LoC was to play the three Salidar factions (Sheriam, Lelaine, Romanda) against each other to get the Rebels moving. And that was explicitly with Siuan's help:

 

 

 

Siuan started to pull one of the chairs over before remembering she could move it with saidar now. "They are sitting because once they move, the White Tower really is broken. As for how to get them moving, my advice...." Her advice took a long time. Some of it went along lines Egwene had already thought of, and all of it seemed good.

 

Her rational for letting Logain leave was also along those lines, and not wishing to have Rand antagonized further by Aes Sedai. Its not a matter of brilliance, merely having her priorities straight because she hasn't been conditioned by the Aes Sedai. She does unconventional things because convention hasn't been taught to her, most of the time. None of this makes her a super-Amyrlin.

 

I disagree with you there. Egwene, prior to LoC, never really showed much political acumen. The quote you provided clearly states that Egwene had already thought of some of the political moves that Siuan had advised and making the 3 factions work against each other is an extremely clever move - but not something I would have expected from her prior to LoC.

Furthermore, I think she won Siuan's trust/loyalty far too easily. Siuan was the one who put Egwene forward to Salidar to be manipulated.The last we saw both of them together prior to LoC was the tDR.

Egwene clearly states she listened in to Moiraine's lessons. But its also pretty clear that more than the Game of Houses, its what she got from the Wise Ones that made her a great Amyrlin. She always had Siuan as an advisor for the manipulation. But the reason she got Siuan's loyalty was because Siuan could see the true toughness in Egwene, and that was nurtured and stiffened by the Wise Ones.

 

 

As for why people react negatively to her, I think its because she's the only one who becomes a leader not because she inherited it or was chosen by the Pattern, but by pure chance. So there is a sense that when Elayne or Mat or Rand do the things she she does, its okay because they have some "legitimacy". When she does these things, there's a sense of "who the hell is she to tell X such a thing?".

 

Its pure nonsense, of course, because she's as legitimate as any of them. Ta'veren is nothing but the twisting of chance, and being born to someone is also a matter of chance. Heck, her becoming Amyrlin is obviously part of the same Great Web the Pattern was weaving. Like Moiraine saw in EotW, while Nynaeve and Egwene were not actually ta'veren, they were damn near close to it. So was Elayne. The Pattern desperately needed someone as Amyrlin who would have no hesitation in calling out Rand if she disagreed, but also one who wouldn't dream of hurting him to gain her goals. And other things that Siuan was just too "traditionally Aes Sedai" to do.

 

She had listened to a number of Moiraine's lectures to Rand about the Game of Houses.Back then, she had thought the Game absurd, and worse than underhanded. Now she hoped she could remember everything she had heard.- LOC

I concede I may have misinterpreted that sentence, and even if I did not, Siuan would have been there to advise her.

Regardless, I have no issues about her legitimacy to the Amyrlin Seat. I think it was reasonable plot line that the Salidar AS wanted a puppet.

I still think RJ handled Egwene as a character poorly in her transition in LoC. 

Perhaps it was just circumstances of the characters around her. She was left largely alone without any other main characters to bounce off and show a more human side of her. Just using Rand as a comparison, he had Egwene (and the other 3 girls) to bounce off to each other / goad each other. Perhaps not. I have not really given much thought to this.

Just within LoC you had her mooning over Gawyn like the girl from the village, scared shitless in the raising ceremony and then super amyrlin. 

I don't really have a problem with Egwene's treatment of her subordinates. In a lot of ways, I don't find it real different to Rand before he turned all zen on us - if anything, she is more reasonable in some ways.

I always found her chameleon-like ability to adopt everything she has an interest, while admirable, a little jarring in the tone of her narration. Hers and Rand's PoV are the 2 that has the most dramatic change. If you read a PoV in EoTW/tGH for Rand or Egwene and jump to a PoV in say FoH or KoD, the tone of their PoV is dramatically different. With Rand, you get the sense he feels like he feels like he is forced into this position. Egwene throws herself to be a Wise One apprentice then Amyrlin.

The switch from Accepted -> Pseudo AS -> Wise One apprentice was at least gradual, if quick. But from Wise One Apprentice -> Amyrlin, it was incredibly quick. I find that the change in tone was too sudden, and it feels like I am suddenly reading a different character in LoC and it took me a while to empathize with her again because the switch and adaptation to Amyrlin was, imo, inconceivably quick. (Rand had the most of tDR and tSR to change). 

The rest of the characters (barring the Zen Rand transformation) had a more gradual change, and I did not feel like I suddenly had to get to know them again (with the slight exception of the change of Matt's tone in TGS, but that isn't "Matt's" fault but the author not handling the tone as well. Egwene was like the character I knew pre raising ceremony - the moment the raising was over in LoC, she was suddenly super amyrlin. That I thought was done poorly - I might have found the transition smoother if there were more PoV of Moiraine training Egwene in the waste, but we get the sense that Moiraine was all focused on Rand and she got tidbits of the Game of Houses by happenstance. In my re-reads I have more or less accepted this sudden change in mindset, but I still remember I was quite bewildered by the change after the excitement of the Egwene obtaining the stole faded.

I respect her for doing what she felt strongly about, but come on. Rand is the Dragon and obviously right about the Seals. He was just being polite in asking her. 

To the reader it was probably pretty obvious re seals. But I don't see how it would be obvious for other characters. I also think you are too generous about him being polite to her. He did, after all, want her to rally everyone else to the meeting too.

Oops yes that is what I meant. Sorry about that.

She was picked to be Amyrlin to be a puppet in Salidar. The route was in a way handed to her.

But she did work to becoming an Amyrlin of a whole WT.

You can't really complain she invented a weave (and yes, this causes a lot of controversy) that counters Balefire - which as far as we know AoL AS do not know.

With regards to the Seanchan, while I abhor that whole Damane business, it is certain that a lot of the Seanchan damane were brainwashed to view themselves as a danger. I do think RJ is also trying to make a point about "We will force you to be free" and we can see examples in our real world. I like how Elayne and the kin had a hard time rehabilitating them because that would be true (Yes, Alivia took freedom well, and she seemed to be the only one). After tGS I had hoped to see if Egwene was able to rehabilitated the damane she captured, or how she would have faced Bethamin and Seta (who was the 2nd most after Renna to wear her leash). Alas, we did not see that. 

The challenge of whose way of life is better that Egwene had with Tuon, without resorting to violence (due to the dragon's peace) was the best result.

Now and forever, channelling HotH are imprinted with 

Cool Nakomi-Egwene theory.

I hold the view that heroes of the horn can't channel.

As cool as the idea that they could appear in the world with all their past lives knowledge of weaves from different ages (and within ages) (and that sounds like Avatar the Last Airbender), we have no evidence that anyone who can channel is tied to the horn. We do not know if the Dragon is/was dead, that the horn can summon him as well.

I can't see dead channellers being any greater than living channellers (baring all the knowledge of past lives). But dead archers seem to be greater than living archers for eg.

 

With regards to Vora's Sa'angreal lack of buffer, I have always found characters commenting about it being "perhaps the most powerful" always a bit odd. Perhaps there can be certain situations where another Sa'angreal can be more powerful than another, or their relative strength granted differ from person to person, but I did not try to work out any. But if it was intended to be a foreshadowing by RJ, it was somewhat vague. And if it was intended to be read as a foreshadowing, then it implies there is another Sa'angreal of around Vora's Sa'angreal's strength.

I took it to mean that the it was the most powerful sa'angreal the AS had come across, and they just didn't know if there were any in existence which were more powerful.

In tDR:

"Egwene had never seen the wand before, but she recognized it from a lecture Anaiya had given the novices. One of the few sa’angreal, and perhaps the most powerful, that the Tower possessed."

In tGS, I think Egwene commented it was "one of the most powerful" - instead of "the most powerful." - Which was a fair continuity on that line of thought she had in tDR. Though, I am pretty sure Siuan subsequently commented it was the strongest in tGS

Anyway it has always struck me as odd.

Did Anaiya suggest that it -might- be the most powerful the Tower possessed in the novice lectures?

Or was it the only Sa'angreal ever mentioned in the lectures and so Egwene inferred it was the most powerful?

If it was former, then why the ambiguity on the relative strength the Sa'angreals the WT possessed. It also implies at least 1 other Sa'angreal of close strength the WT possessed (not that it matters since I cannot imagine Vora Sa'angreal being anywhere in the upper echelons of Sa'angreal) - This could imply the other Sa'angreal(s) of close strength has a buffer, and the lack of buffer gives the ambiguity. Again, I would say that even if it was even intended to be a hint Vora's Sa'angreal had no buffer (and I am doubtful), it was a very very thin hint barely worth noting.

If the latter, then Egwene made a wild (and lucky ) stab in the dark that Siuan confirmed - and possibly others confirmed it. But I cannot remember.

With regards to Vora's Sa'angreal lack of buffer, I have always found characters commenting about it being "perhaps the most powerful" always a bit odd. Perhaps there can be certain situations where another Sa'angreal can be more powerful than another, or their relative strength granted differ from person to person, but I did not try to work out any. But if it was intended to be a foreshadowing by RJ, it was somewhat vague. And if it was intended to be read as a foreshadowing, then it implies there is another Sa'angreal of around Vora's Sa'angreal's strength.

Maybe Egwene's fate was one of those multiple choice options RJ left BS. Shrug. Though that seems unlikely.

egwene's death was a product of sanderson. Nothing more nothing less.

 

eventually after years and the enclyopedia already out the truth will eventually merge.

 

To be honest, you could tell.

 

The lack of emotion on the super girls, the laughable taim battle, the addition of 'oh noes vora's sangreal has no buffer' last minute etc etc.

 

His refusal to come out and say outright whether he nerfed egwene or was it RJ just seals the deal.

Vora's Sa'angreal lack of buffer was apparently in RJ's notes. http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=940

Q: Vora's sa'angreal - was it always in the notes that it didn't have the buffer against over-drawing? 

A: Yes, that was always it’s setup according to the notes, though Brandon gets credit for naming the thing.

 

I think Egwene's death would have worked better if the reaction to it was more than four throwaway lines from Leanne, Mat, Perrin and Nynaeve. That was just dumb, and completely unrealistic. Elayne couldn't possibly have reacted to it as sanguinely as she's depicted to. Would have been nice to see the WO mourn too, as well as her closest Aes Sedai friends.

 

I felt it was completely absurd that we didn't get some of that in Rand's last PoV. Maybe RJ would have added it in his second pass at the scene, and Brandon just didn't want to change what RJ wrote, but to me, it seemed like it would have been perfect if, when Rand left SG, he planned to make a trip of the world, but start with a trip to Merrilor to pay his respects to the fallen heroes, Egwene at the top of the list. It would have been a perfect resolution to the "list", if he planned to go there and make sure all the dead were remembered and honored. Maybe he'd visit the pillar of crystal Egwene left behind, her own Dragonmount, of sorts. 

 

Of course, another thing that would have made this better is if 'the Flame of Tar Valon" had more buildup. Brandon said the weave was noted, so it isn't like the weave was to die with her. I'd have liked to see more discussion of what it was, its connection to cuendillar (if it exists), and how Egwene came up with it. Would have been nice to see some Aes Sedai use it too, to further shore up the Pattern, and kill some Trollocs. Would have been awesome if the remaining AS linked and started throwing it at the Trolloc hordes.

 

Plus, did anyone find it weird that she didn't link with Narishma and Merise? When I saw those two nearby when she was fighting Taim, I thought it was the perfect mirror to Rand facing the DO with a circle. She could have released them and made the conscious choice to overextend herself after Taim was killed. I just found it weird that she never used saidin. Seemed to be a major thematic miss, for me.

 

Er, Egwene pillar is buried under rubble.No dragonmount there!!

A mountain protruding from the land and a cave-in.

Hmm.... 

 

The point about armour is a good one with all channellers (male or female). We are often told about stray arrows can kill them and all the channelling wouldn't save them. Yet, only Demandred is seen with armour - though it is probably only ceremonial.

 

I don't see the skirts a huge issue. The Sul'dum and Damane are in skirts and leashed together. Their mobility must probably be the worst among all, yet they are always considered/written to be formidable. You would think a nation very comfortable with war would dress them more suited to war. Personally I think it is RJ's bias they stay in dress.

 

Anyway looking at battles historically, armies don't always wear sensible clothes we see now. We take it for granted now soldiers wear camos suitable to their environment. Yet, not too long ago, armies were in Scarlets, with your officers wearing more elaborate headgear to single them out. 

 

Those scarlets WERE sensible. In the chaos of a normal battle, it's quite convenient if you know who is an enemy and who is not. Now, with the advent of modern armies lines got so continuous (and sitances between two armies so big) that the location of someone was enough of a clue that not being seen by the bad guys was more important... but that wasn't always so.

 

But yeah, I suppose the clothes aren't THAT major an issue. Bit odd to go into war wearing skirts, I still think, but indeed Aes Sedai had done it before and done well.

By that logic, the beautiful silk dresses that swishes inordinately and needs to be smoothed on a regular basis distinguish the Aes Sedai clearly to any archers/channellers of both side during the chaos of battle. The clear distinction would certainly work for and against them. The British Redcoats certainly learnt how it can work against them when they faced Guerrilla tactics in the American Revolution.

I honestly doubt they decided red for strategic purposes. Without really researching it, and taking a few stabs in the dark, I think it would probably be

(1) create a sense of prestige because the dyes were expensive. I think red was often considered a royal colour -- Personally, I think there is an element of prestige with the AS that they are above more mortal concerns a non-channeller would have, and hence dresses are a non-issue. The Sharans female channellers were also in dresses, as are the Sul'Dum and Damane - again, imho probably a statement about having the one power and above certain mortal concerns. I do think RJ and Sanderson tend to overstate the stray arrow - I don't understand why AS/Sharans/Asha'man/Damane Sul'dum don't just walk around with a tied off shield against projectiles. Their true danger are really other channellers, and they don't particularly need eyes to pin point you once you channel. 

(2) alternatively red dyes were so cheap mass production of it was easy - though I doubt it. 

The point about armour is a good one with all channellers (male or female). We are often told about stray arrows can kill them and all the channelling wouldn't save them. Yet, only Demandred is seen with armour - though it is probably only ceremonial.

I don't see the skirts a huge issue. The Sul'dum and Damane are in skirts and leashed together. Their mobility must probably be the worst among all, yet they are always considered/written to be formidable. You would think a nation very comfortable with war would dress them more suited to war. Personally I think it is RJ's bias they stay in dress.

Anyway looking at battles historically, armies don't always wear sensible clothes we see now. We take it for granted now soldiers wear camos suitable to their environment. Yet, not too long ago, armies were in Scarlets, with your officers wearing more elaborate headgear to single them out. 

@James

 

There is a long history here of Egwene hate James. It has nothing to do with one being better than the other and everything to do with what actually happened in the story. Some people let AS bias skew everything they do. She isn't one of my top 5 characters but you can only see so many ridiculous statements before you start pointing out the flaws.

 

As for characters comparing phallus size see the lame conversation between Mat and Rand in AMoL.

Interesting you point out about AS bias. I notice with myself when I have an extreme dislike for characters/people (usually on hindsight, irrational), it is usually because I see a quality of the character that I possess. To give an example so it makes more sense - When I was younger, in artistic gymnastics I tend to root for the eastern european countries or Chinese team, and I absolutely despise the American and Japanese team. Completely irrational as I am neither from Eastern Europe or from China. The reason I disliked the American and Japanese team was because I viewed they come from a more affluent backgrounds (developed Nations), whereas the Eastern European and Chinese teams usually come from poverty and trying to escape poverty (over-simplified of course). In a way it was the fact I come from a reasonably well-off family, and I felt somewhat ashamed that I am fortunate to get a headstart in getting a foothold in life, while others could not - and unfortunately projected it onto the American and Japanese teams.

I do wonder if there is a projection of certain AS qualities in oneself that people take to hating Egwene/AS so much. Perhaps I'm reading too much into it into the assertions and unequivocal statements.

I agree the competition between Matt and Rand was somewhat lame, but I still enjoy it. The heroes state that Matt has done more than enough to be bound to the horn and the competition was a comical take that someone does not necessarily have to have this special place in the pattern to do important things/chosen to do important things/meaningful contribution to the pattern that is just as important as the Dragon.

Gah, so tedious trying to sort my thoughts. I should stick to lurking I think.

Maybe it is just me, but this discussion seems to be becoming (imho anyway) to whether Rand or Egwene has a larger phallus.

A: Rand has a size 20 phallus! Egwene must have no more than size 12 phallus because I say so!

B: No Egwene must have at least a size 15 phallus because in [wherever] she said so!

A: Just because she thinks she has a size 15 phallus doesn't mean she has a size 15 phallus. 12 I say! And don't forget, the pattern makes Rand's phallus the most special in the world. 

C: Ah the hatred towards egwene is also probably because she used that size 12 Phallus and slapped Nynaeve across the face in TAR several times!

----

Anyway, my lame attempt of parody aside, I enjoyed the interaction of Rand and Egwene. Maybe I'm the only one who have experienced this growing up with Childhood friends - Just because we become adults, it does not mean we do not slip into our childhood roles with each other (simply because it is many years of learnt behaviour towards each other). It is probably exaggerated more for story purposes, but from when they left Two Rivers, it was about 2 years. 

And maybe because of that, I can laugh at myself (and my friends) when something important happens (despite our best to act more adult-like), we end up falling back into childhood roles.

 

 

Egwene is not a special soul,her power was only due to her position.If she was not apppointed into the Amyrlin position she would be a nothing.Rand is a special soul.They are not equal.Some people need ot be reminded of this again and again.

 

>Yes laughable that people think Egwene is the equal of Rand in anyway. She was and will always be an inferior to him.

 

I think it is more comical that people have Rand and Egwene in a competition ;)

 

 

 Alas: when she left the Two Rivers, she LEFT the Two Rivers in her dust . Really, Egwene? Not even a single visit via Gateway? A summons to her parents for a meal in Tar Valon? Nothing? You gotta wonder what happened back in the day to make her so completely reject her people and traditions.

Actually she flat out told Gawyn in ToM that she wouldn't get married unless her parents were present. Then in AMoL they were married all of sudden so either Brandon forgot about it or she brought them over off screen.

 

As for the rest calling her a psychopathic narcissist is precisely the type of hyperbole that distracts from any rational discussion of her character. It's right up there with the "worse than Elaida" and "forsaken like" claims. 

Egwene was also the only known main character to have written letters to her parents after the Two Rivers (as far as I can remember) - which happened off-screen in Perrin's PoV. I agree with Suttree about the hyperbole.

 

I was just thinking about it, and for their to be any chance at war not breaking out almost immediately after The Last Battle, Egwene had to die. Remember this conversation?

 

 

"I will break you myself," Fortuona said softly. "Someday, your people will turn you over to me. You will forget yourself, and your arrogance will lead you to our borders. I will be waiting."

 

"I plan to live centuries," Egwene hissed. "I will watch your empire crumble, Fortuona. I will watch it with joy."

 

There's no way Egwene would wait long enough for Seanchan society to change peacefully, after her experiences she would have attacked them as soon as possible, probably leading to a future similar to the one Avi witnesses in her visions at Rhuidean the second time.

Presumably the Dragon's Peace is signed by the Aes Sedai. That included the Seanchan, and they can't go to war for 100 years.

Egwene acted like an idiot with Rand and Tuon. Also, no reunion with her and her family? I would have loved to see that. There were hardly words between her and anyone.

 

How did Egwene know to watch for the light? That bugged me.

 

I didn't like the crystals and cracks at all. It doesn't seem intuitive that the blackness beyond the pattern would actually show as the pattern unravelled. Also, why was there so much blackness in the ground as compared to the air*? A few tendrils of blackness moved out of the cracks in the ground, but why did they need to originate there? There's nothing special about the ground.

The anti-balefire weave (and Egwene coming up with it) seems plausible to me, for many of the reasons already mentioned, but why couldn't the cracks just close? Is it because the opposite of burning something is freezing that something**, thus the ice-like crystals? She did call it the flame of Tar Valon, though. If a thread is balefired, I'd think anti-balefire would gather up all the little particles of the burned thread (the motes) and place them back together, despite the fact that it's pretty much impossible to do this in the real world when something burns. Since burning is generally regarded as irreversible, though, I can live with anti-balefire putting something else in a thread's place with the same shape, but I still don't see why it'd have to show physically, and as a crystal specifically. It could just be realized as the blackness leaving the cracks and the Sharans dropping dead.

Also, her weave having a greater effect on people who had turned to the shadow is ridiculous; a weave like that shouldn't be so unbalanced.

 

 

 

 

 

* I know a crack in the air doesn't seem to make sense (what would it look like from the side?), but that's because we're used to cracks in surfaces, which are 2D. The cracks in the air would have to be 3D, which is impossible to visualize. As a matter of fact, the ground cracks, and all other cracks in the pattern itself, would have to be 3D as well, since the pattern is 3-dimensional.

** I know that combustion involves the oxidization of a fuel along with the expulsion of energy, so its true opposite isn't very clear; let's not get too scientific about it. Burning something makes it hot, freezing something makes it cold, so that's that. They're opposites.

In the notes of a former Amyrlin that was also a dreamer. Think it was in the chapter she travelled to Elayne's camp. The deceased Dreamer Amyrlin  wrote a note that said something to the effect of "watch for the light" (without me actually checking the actual quote)

*edit got the quote:

Elayne shuffled through the sheets of paper, then stopped on one of them. ";His blood shall give us the Light...'" She rubbed the page with her thumb, as if lost in thought. "'Wait upon the Light.' Who added this note?"

"That is Doniella Alievin's copy of the Termendal translation of The Karaethon Cycle," Egwene said.