Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?! Those are awesome

What plotlines are these that people don't care for?

About to start book 10.

Why exactly is this one so hated by the fandom exactly?

 

The mechanics are arbitrary by their DEFINITION.

 

YOu just said. Ta'vereness only works if teh pattern (Robert Jordan) needs something to happen

 

Ta'veren exist because the Wheel spins them out as corrective mechanisms with the intent to weave the Pattern in certain ways. While random chance does happen around them because there's a warping effect, if you will, there's an underlying purpose, and the ta'veren can't just bend it to their will. The mechanics are clear. All you're saying is that author's create their own narratives. Well.... duh.

 

The Pattern is an intelligent thing. It just is, it's composed of the threads of people and things. The Wheel is what weaves. It's actively monitoring. It's like a supercomputer taking in information and trying to predict things in advance. It doesn't know the future, it just takes in lots of inputs. It doesn't exert specific control over all individual threads, but if the Pattern is not playing out as it should (Ages repeat, remember, not exactly, and they change more and more each rotation) then the Wheel corrects for it, either by spinning out Heroes or by selecting specific threads and making them ta'veren and using them. Ta'veren seem to cause other threads to warp around them. Some of this intentional, with the Wheel trying to direct things in certain ways, and it should be said that it's warping and trying to shape in that way, not dictating each and every thread. But that warping effect also causing random things to happen, too.

Then we come back to that age old question. If reality is warping everything around the main characters an dactively shuffling events so that they happen in the way the Pattern wants then where is the TENSION? Where is the belief that evil has a chance of winning? This is not an EXPERIMENTAL story. This is a 14 book several year long investment of time and energy just to read it. You need to buy that the characters are in danger and that they could actually die.. You need to buy that the bad guys could actually achieve their flaming goals.

The Dark One wants to destroy the pattern, yet everything the heroes and villains do bends itself to the pattern's wishes when Ta'veren are around. The Pattern obviously isn't going to let itself be destroyed... so where's the chance that the Dark One might win? What reason do I have to care while I'm reading?

I've heard people talk about this element forever and yet they never seem to comprehend my underlying issue. THERE. IS. NO. TENSION.

I mostly justify Ta'veren by assuming that the pattern isn't actually a thing which knows the future in any real capacity nor does the Pattern have a plan. The pattern is crafted by people. The pattern doesn't control anything. it just balances good luck with bad luck. The shadow taints the pattern and Ta'veren are created to adress the balance.

I just believe while reading that Ta'vren are merely people who radiate an aura of fluctuating probability. (shrug)

It's better than assuming that some higher force is shaping everything

The mechanics are arbitrary by their DEFINITION.

YOu just said. Ta'vereness only works if teh pattern (Robert Jordan) needs something to happen

 

 

 

Mat is trying to get the secret of fireworks out of this girl. But she's screwing around with him and giving him riddles and crap to solve.

 

... why doesn't his Ta'veren-ness just make her tell him? It can make Aes Sedai bow to Rand and cause the most ruthless traders in the world to agree to a deal with Mat. I thought being Ta'veren made things that someone COULD say but likely wouldn't far more likely. but it can't make someone say something they would NEVER in a million years say.

 

Is that implying that this random illuminator physically would NEVER tell Mat the secret unless he solves her riddle? Implying she has more willpower than the flaming SEA FOLK.

Ta'veren doesn't work according to the desires of the ta'veren, but the needs of the Pattern. If the Pattern doesn't need him to have the information yet, why would it bend in his favour?

Oh, so whenever Robert Jordan needs him to know something. Right. (rolls eyes)

 

Isn't that how all characters in every fictional plot ever learn things?

Generally it's considered a sign of bad writing if something happens purely because the author wants it to happen regardless of whether or not it works with the characters and setting you've set up. Hanging a neon sign around your story saying "I'm aware of this" does not negate the fact that you're doing it or make it suddenly inspired. At least not the way RJ is doing it

I'm constantly wrestling with this story. Explaining the way Ta'vern-ness and the Pattern works in my head so that it isn't the be all and end all of everything and the story can actually have some tension. So forgive me if I never accept "The pattern doesn't need this." or "The pattern needed this to happen" as anything even approaching a satisfactory answer. If this were any other series. "The author doesn't need this" and "The author needed this to happen" would be laughed out of any discussion as an explanation for anything.

... sorry, (straightens self) major wonk of mine

 

Mat is trying to get the secret of fireworks out of this girl. But she's screwing around with him and giving him riddles and crap to solve.

 

... why doesn't his Ta'veren-ness just make her tell him? It can make Aes Sedai bow to Rand and cause the most ruthless traders in the world to agree to a deal with Mat. I thought being Ta'veren made things that someone COULD say but likely wouldn't far more likely. but it can't make someone say something they would NEVER in a million years say.

 

Is that implying that this random illuminator physically would NEVER tell Mat the secret unless he solves her riddle? Implying she has more willpower than the flaming SEA FOLK.

Ta'veren doesn't work according to the desires of the ta'veren, but the needs of the Pattern. If the Pattern doesn't need him to have the information yet, why would it bend in his favour?

Oh, so whenever Robert Jordan needs him to know something. Right. (rolls eyes)

Can Forsaken do it?

Have Forsaken ever yielded to a Ta'veren's pull

I know that, I meant that Aram's decision to abandon being a Tinker in the first place was because of Perrin's Ta'veren-ness

But I always thought Ta'veren-ness happened on a wide scale and couldn't be controlled. (like I always thought Aram was a display of the negative effect a Ta'veren could have just by being in proximity to someone)

Why hadn't the people of the AOL discovered a way to cure stilling and unthread weaves?

I know, I know "They consider it impossible" But WHY? I don't buy that a culture thousands of years ahead of ours, with countless scholars, eager students and straight up mavericks trying to do the impossible wouldn't have discovered SOMETHING. The unthreading weaves thing is especially inexcusible. The Aiel wise ones learned how to do it. and it really doesn't sound that intricate (especially if you start off small which is what Aviendha says happens when they learn how to do it. They don't START with trying to unweave gateways.

People say "They were afraid to see what would happen" I don't buy that. That's not how people work. There will always be SOMEONE who goes against the grain and brings forth innovation. People are ambitious. There weren't even a handful of people with Nynaeve's drive back in the AOL trying to cure stilling? The cure really didn't sound that complicated.

I refuse to believe that ambitiousness didn't exist until the 3rd age

Mat is trying to get the secret of fireworks out of this girl. But she's screwing around with him and giving him riddles and crap to solve.

... why doesn't his Ta'veren-ness just make her tell him? It can make Aes Sedai bow to Rand and cause the most ruthless traders in the world to agree to a deal with Mat. I thought being Ta'veren made things that someone COULD say but likely wouldn't far more likely. but it can't make someone say something they would NEVER in a million years say.

Is that implying that this random illuminator physically would NEVER tell Mat the secret unless he solves her riddle? Implying she has more willpower than the flaming SEA FOLK.

He did? What? I think I remember him grabbing her by the face... or was that Egwene he grabbed?

during the big Forsaken meeting in Winter's Heart. Chapter 13. Demandred says it in narration.

"Demandred hardly scorned fleshy pleasures, but one day her cravings would be the death of her. As they already had been once."

Then how do you explain Rand's sudden increase in insanity in book 3 before calming back down in book 4 =P

Where did Balthamel's outfit and mask come from anyway? I would assume he made it himself. But why? What was with the smiling face?

and if it was to hide his appearance. He knows the Mirrors of mist weave. Aginor too for that matter but he didn't seem too fussed on his appearance

It was specifically the fact that Demandred mentioned that it had gotten Balthamel killed before.

He could've just said "It'll get him killed one of these days" but he went the eextra mile

The Song "Men in Black" makes an awesome theme for the Black Tower and the Asha'man XD

"So don't fear us, cheer us
If you ever get near us, don't jeer us, we're the fearless
M.I.B.'s, freezin up all the flack
(What's that stand for?) Men In Black"

Demandred mentions that Balthamel's love of excess will get him killed one day as it had in the past.

When did that happen? Balthamel in book 1 wasn't killed by greed and gluttony. If anyone that was what happened to Aginor

 

In TDR. How did Moiraine figure out that Lord Brend was Sammael after just being in town for a little while? Is he that obvious?

That one has never had a good answer. It mostly gets chocked up to "Moiraine is awesome".

"Moiraine is awesome"

(twitches)

In TDR. How did Moiraine figure out that Lord Brend was Sammael after just being in town for a little while? Is he that obvious?

But the pattern is EVERYTHING and we aren't really shown how you can fight it. How do you fight something that knows literally EVERYTHING about everyone and controls things in such a way that it appears natural? This isn't a computer this is reality itself. What methods does Shaitan have of going against the grand design?

And are you saying I can't even enjoy it when the Chosen does something cool? :(

Actually, there's one scene I'm dreading even more than the Cleansing of Saidin. that's the one where all the Forsaken meet for Moridin to tell them to stop Rand however they can. It sounds like there's gonna be a lot of arrogance, incredulity and fear (rolls eyes)

okay, then he isn't playing every side. Otherwise someone on Rand's side of the battle would be set up to stop him.