mat memories from finnland(in rhuidean) are definitely not from

his past lives,robert jordan said they were from random adventurers/warriors.

@szilard,

"mostly with jack of shadows-seeing what happened before,this is inevitable

-and bfg,they are the different sides of the same coin."

i couldn't have said it any better myself...lol.

@bfg, i intend to revisit dumai's wells,i want to refresh my memory regarding

perrin's role with the salidar aes sedai.

@bfg,

"or maybe if you accept that leaders are flawed"

yes,all leaders are flawed,including rand,rand is human and humans make mistakes,but that's not the real issue,the real issue is very bad timing and wrong

approach(like sabio said,kiruna was definitely unsuitable negotiating with rand),

bear in mind that rand was incarcerated in a box,repeatedly and unmercifully beaten for days,kiruna bullish approach only seconds after the battle ended only

infuriated an already furious rand even more,put yourself in rand's shoes and tell

me,would you have done anything differently?could you have done anything differently?moiraine was smart enough to stop lan from approaching rand,kiruna didn't even bother to use her head.

"it's effectively a form of compulsion if a very very weak version of it"

no,it wasn't compulsion,not even a light version of compulsion,the salidar aes sedai had a choice,a choice between two extremely bad options,either they stay

on their feet and die or kneel and live,but still,THEY-HAD-A-CHOICE.

"in the end he trusted the aes sedai he knew"

true,not only in the end,this was rand's modus operandi from the beginning.

"he trusted min though,not the fealty"

true again,rand trusted min arguably more than anyone.

@solarz,

"rand trusted alanna"

i don't think so,rand didn't trust alanna,the bond gave rand some..advantages

regarding alanna's state of mind,so he was a little bit more relaxed around her.

@szilard,

"jordan fell in love with a certain heroine and a certain hero.."

*grinning*

would you care to elaborate who are the hero and heroine robert jordan

fell in love with?

if i recall correctly,according to the wiseone,gaul is a clan chief

material,so maybe settling down is not on the agenda for him just yet.

@sabio,

"...was pretty much the wrong person to try and deal with rand."

i agree with your assessment of kiruna completely,but as bad as kiruna's

behavior was,the real..saboteur was verin,in my opinion,her manipulations

derailed the salidar embassy entirely,bera and kiruna's arrival was just

the final nail in the coffin of an already very dead embassy.

@bfg,

do you remember when rand killed all the trollocs inside the stone of

tear with callandor,moiraine stopped lan from approaching rand?

kiruna(and the rest of them)didn't bother,didn't stop even for one

second to realise how precarious and dangerous the whole situation was,

kiruna assumed that being aes sedai would protect them from anything,

"you forget who we are",unfortunatelly(for them) rand didn't forget anything,

the fact is,the salidar embassy paid a price for their stupidity,all

they had to do was wait a few hours for things to calm down,and then

approach rand,but no,they of course couldn't wait,this aes sedai(typical)

entitlement attitude proved to be their downfall.

one last thing,rand didn't consider the salidar embassy as allies.like

i said in my previous post,even before dumai's wells,they didn't give rand

any reasons to trust them,and perception is everything,especially when you are the boss.

@bfg,

"it's the kneel or you will be knelt.as a line it changes everything,

but the implications are disturbing."

working relationship between rand and the salidar embassy was progressing

nicely as long as merana was in charge,the arrival of verin and alanna changed

the dynamics within the group and eventually destroyed any chance of success.

verin was the main culprit,szilard called verin the true spider of the series,

but she operated more like a snake,she used the attack on demira as an excuse

to usurp control from merana completely,since that moment,things went from bad

to worse,first they tried the mirror of mist,then they tried to bully rand,and to

complicate matters further,bera and kiruna joined the embassy,it was a classic case

of too many bakers spoiling the tiramisu layer cake lol.

fast forward to the end of dumai's wells battle,what did you expect would happen

when kiruna met rand?put yourself in the salidar aes sedai shoes and tell me

realisticly,what could they do?they were 9 aes sedai vs 200 asha'man and rand,

the odds were overwhelmingly against them,bear in mind that the working relationship

between the salidar ambassy and rand completely deteriorated even before dumai's wells.

i don't recall herid fel saying anything to rand relating to

a certain event at the end of winter's heart.

semirhage didn't choke min,rand did,sure,rand was collared then and

couldn't control his actions,but he was the one who's doing the choking,

and that's why he cracked,the thought of killing another wife was simply unbearable.

szilard didn't read the last three books,and according to him(and not just him),

the real ending of the wheel of time series is lord of chaos,to be honest,i can

see where he is coming from,i am not a big fan of books 7-11 and even less of the

last three,i had my own reasons(one reason precisely) why i finished this series,

and even after four years i haven't changed my mind,i am glad that i finished this

series,but the wheel of time is full of problems and far from perfect.

during lord of chaos chapter 50,herid fel gave rand important

information regarding the bore,rand figured it out in the gathering storm,

so maybe the reason behind the murder was to stop herid fel from giving rand

more information.

herid fel was killed by a gholam at the end of lord of chaos,

however, he wasn't young,he was described as a stout man with thin grey hair.

heh,brother to the meegerling.

the path of daggers is almost as bad as crossroads of twilight,

*sigh*,faile is captured is this book,the beginning of perrin's dreadful,

never ending "rescue" mission.

nynaeve tugs on her braid is your favorite scene?that's about half of the wheel of time series lol.

Hurt teslyn,

Come on bfg,it's time for a coup de grace!

Hurt verin,heal teslyn

Hurt verin

Hurt verin

Hurt verin

Hurt verin,heal teslyn

Hurt verin,heal teslyn

Hurt verin,heal teslyn

Hurt verin heal teslyn