Yeah. the way I saw it he was expecting the two of them to cancel each other out. Except... he has no reason to think they would. The wounds on his side for instance. They don't cancel each other out. They react violently and cause him more pain than they do seperately

He knows that the energies work against each other, that they're waves out of phase in such a way that it results in destructive interference. As Flinn stated, the two evils in his wound were fighting each other, not working together (Rand would have died from Fain's dagger otherwise). I believe in Rand's narrative he also says that he asked the Finns about cleansing saidin and that they hinted at an answer (he doesn't explicitly say what his question or the answer was, but he does imply he asked and got a hint). I think the wounds helped him understand what they meant. Also, I think he noticed his wound behaving differently at Shadar Logoth in his fight with Sammael, too, or maybe it was when he went to ward the waygate with the maidens, though you may want to check that one.

About to start book 10.

 

Why exactly is this one so hated by the fandom exactly?

It's pretty much a catch up novel for all the plotlines that fell behind in Winter's Heart. This means you don't get to see reaction to the results of that novel, and some of the plotlines you're most eager to see advance after the last one . . . don't. Also, some major arcs barely seem to advance much at all, meaning that they stretch over three to four books. Add on top of that that many fans had to wait two years after Winter's Heart for this book, and then had to wait four (?) years for Knife of Dreams because Jordan chose to write a prequel novel after CoT, and you have a recipe for a book a lot of fans just don't like and even Jordan admitted he would have done differently if given another chance.

If you don't mind the slower pace, CoT won't be too bad at all. The prose is pretty great. You also have the advantage of not having to wait since finishing WH and won't have to wait to start KoD. As you read, keep in mind that CoT and KoD were intended as one book by Jordan. KoD starts wrapping up a lot of plotlines and brings about their actual climaxes, and is where Jordan demonstrated that he could still write a popularly paced novel that could deliver plot gratification with great writing. The way I see it, Jordan opened up a lot of plotlines in PoD, too many to handle at a popular pace, and they were all forced through a bottleneck which took a while to resolve.

I use the term "popular pace" instead of "good pace" because popular is less subjective.

 

 

Why does Egwene lie and say she is an Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah to the Wise Ones?  It has all sorts of unpleasant ramifications for her later on, and Moiraine disapproves (she tightens her mouth when Egwene says it).  I can understand why Eg, Nyn, and El pretended to be AS in the Wetlands where they needed to be treated with respect to do what they had to do, but I don't understand why Egwene chooses to continue the lie with the Wise Ones.

It started when she met Alys in T'A'R, I believe. She didn't know who she was sealing with. I think she wasn't quite sure how to get out of that one once it started. It just snowballed. She may have been afraid that if she told the truth the Wise Ones would atop her training.

Amys?

Whoops. Yes, her. Not the kin woman

Both Jordan and Sanderson sometimes use(d) RAFO for "Sorry, you're just going to have to speculate on that one."

As for Nakomi. I'd like to know. I'm curious. But she wasn't a major player. I don't know where that's coming from.

Why does Egwene lie and say she is an Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah to the Wise Ones?  It has all sorts of unpleasant ramifications for her later on, and Moiraine disapproves (she tightens her mouth when Egwene says it).  I can understand why Eg, Nyn, and El pretended to be AS in the Wetlands where they needed to be treated with respect to do what they had to do, but I don't understand why Egwene chooses to continue the lie with the Wise Ones.

It started when she met Alys in T'A'R, I believe. She didn't know who she was sealing with. I think she wasn't quite sure how to get out of that one once it started. It just snowballed. She may have been afraid that if she told the truth the Wise Ones would atop her training.

 

 

The mechanics are arbitrary by their DEFINITION.

 

YOu just said. Ta'vereness only works if teh pattern (Robert Jordan) needs something to happen

 

Ta'veren exist because the Wheel spins them out as corrective mechanisms with the intent to weave the Pattern in certain ways. While random chance does happen around them because there's a warping effect, if you will, there's an underlying purpose, and the ta'veren can't just bend it to their will. The mechanics are clear. All you're saying is that author's create their own narratives. Well.... duh.

 

The Pattern is an intelligent thing. It just is, it's composed of the threads of people and things. The Wheel is what weaves. It's actively monitoring. It's like a supercomputer taking in information and trying to predict things in advance. It doesn't know the future, it just takes in lots of inputs. It doesn't exert specific control over all individual threads, but if the Pattern is not playing out as it should (Ages repeat, remember, not exactly, and they change more and more each rotation) then the Wheel corrects for it, either by spinning out Heroes or by selecting specific threads and making them ta'veren and using them. Ta'veren seem to cause other threads to warp around them. Some of this intentional, with the Wheel trying to direct things in certain ways, and it should be said that it's warping and trying to shape in that way, not dictating each and every thread. But that warping effect also causing random things to happen, too.

Then we come back to that age old question. If reality is warping everything around the main characters an dactively shuffling events so that they happen in the way the Pattern wants then where is the TENSION? Where is the belief that evil has a chance of winning? This is not an EXPERIMENTAL story. This is a 14 book several year long investment of time and energy just to read it. You need to buy that the characters are in danger and that they could actually die.. You need to buy that the bad guys could actually achieve their flaming goals.

 

The Dark One wants to destroy the pattern, yet everything the heroes and villains do bends itself to the pattern's wishes when Ta'veren are around. The Pattern obviously isn't going to let itself be destroyed... so where's the chance that the Dark One might win? What reason do I have to care while I'm reading?

 

I've heard people talk about this element forever and yet they never seem to comprehend my underlying issue. THERE. IS. NO. TENSION.

They aren't guaranteed safety, even as ta'veren, they can still die. Anyway, this is why the DO has called the Fotsaken off of one on one confrontations with Rand. They haven't been working. The Dark One's playing a different game now and using Rand's ta'veren-ness to his advantage.

Side-note: Rand's partially based on the Norse god of single combat.

Never thought about this until today, while reading in The Shadow Rising when Asmodean tells Rand's crew and the Aiel a post-Breaking tale, and it got me wondering... The Forsaken have only been free for a little while, and with the exception of Ishamael they have been unaware of the world. How do they know so much about the people and customs of Randland? They never show any knowledge gaps when interacting with people, and have no problem speaking the common tongue, and seem to have a better grasp than most about what's been going on for the past few thousand years. It seems like, in Asmodean's case, memorizing a ballad about Manetheren would be pretty low on the todo list after being free for the first time in over three thousand years

Jordan's said that the Forsaken could essentially observe the world in a limited fashion while they were sealed.

The mechanics are arbitrary by their DEFINITION.

 

YOu just said. Ta'vereness only works if teh pattern (Robert Jordan) needs something to happen

Ta'veren exist because the Wheel spins them out as corrective mechanisms with the intent to weave the Pattern in certain ways. While random chance does happen around them because there's a warping effect, if you will, there's an underlying purpose, and the ta'veren can't just bend it to their will. The mechanics are clear. All you're saying is that author's create their own narratives. Well.... duh.

The Pattern is an intelligent thing. It just is, it's composed of the threads of people and things. The Wheel is what weaves. It's actively monitoring. It's like a supercomputer taking in information and trying to predict things in advance. It doesn't know the future, it just takes in lots of inputs. It doesn't exert specific control over all individual threads, but if the Pattern is not playing out as it should (Ages repeat, remember, not exactly, and they change more and more each rotation) then the Wheel corrects for it, either by spinning out Heroes or by selecting specific threads and making them ta'veren and using them. Ta'veren seem to cause other threads to warp around them. Some of this intentional, with the Wheel trying to direct things in certain ways, and it should be said that it's warping and trying to shape in that way, not dictating each and every thread. But that warping effect also causing random things to happen, too.

 

 

 

 

Mat is trying to get the secret of fireworks out of this girl. But she's screwing around with him and giving him riddles and crap to solve.

 

... why doesn't his Ta'veren-ness just make her tell him? It can make Aes Sedai bow to Rand and cause the most ruthless traders in the world to agree to a deal with Mat. I thought being Ta'veren made things that someone COULD say but likely wouldn't far more likely. but it can't make someone say something they would NEVER in a million years say.

 

Is that implying that this random illuminator physically would NEVER tell Mat the secret unless he solves her riddle? Implying she has more willpower than the flaming SEA FOLK.

Ta'veren doesn't work according to the desires of the ta'veren, but the needs of the Pattern. If the Pattern doesn't need him to have the information yet, why would it bend in his favour?

Oh, so whenever Robert Jordan needs him to know something. Right. (rolls eyes)

 

Isn't that how all characters in every fictional plot ever learn things?

Generally it's considered a sign of bad writing if something happens purely because the author wants it to happen regardless of whether or not it works with the characters and setting you've set up. Hanging a neon sign around your story saying "I'm aware of this" does not negate the fact that you're doing it or make it suddenly inspired. At least not the way RJ is doing it

 

I'm constantly wrestling with this story. Explaining the way Ta'vern-ness and the Pattern works in my head so that it isn't the be all and end all of everything and the story can actually have some tension. So forgive me if I never accept "The pattern doesn't need this." or "The pattern needed this to happen" as anything even approaching a satisfactory answer. If this were any other series. "The author doesn't need this" and "The author needed this to happen" would be laughed out of any discussion as an explanation for anything.

 

... sorry, (straightens self) major wonk of mine

I don't know, the mechanics seem clear enough, and Jordan's use of ta'veren never felt whim-based or broke the veil of illusion for me. Jordan does have a problem with creating tension in the narrative, though. His villains aren't overtly effective enough. Technically, they do some interesting things, but often they are done outside of the narrative and only come to light later.

 

 

Mat is trying to get the secret of fireworks out of this girl. But she's screwing around with him and giving him riddles and crap to solve.

 

... why doesn't his Ta'veren-ness just make her tell him? It can make Aes Sedai bow to Rand and cause the most ruthless traders in the world to agree to a deal with Mat. I thought being Ta'veren made things that someone COULD say but likely wouldn't far more likely. but it can't make someone say something they would NEVER in a million years say.

 

Is that implying that this random illuminator physically would NEVER tell Mat the secret unless he solves her riddle? Implying she has more willpower than the flaming SEA FOLK.

Ta'veren doesn't work according to the desires of the ta'veren, but the needs of the Pattern. If the Pattern doesn't need him to have the information yet, why would it bend in his favour?

Oh, so whenever Robert Jordan needs him to know something. Right. (rolls eyes)

Isn't that how all characters in every fictional plot ever learn things?

I know that, I meant that Aram's decision to abandon being a Tinker in the first place was because of Perrin's Ta'veren-ness

Oh, okay. Perrin's ta'vereness was probably a factor. However, in EotW, Aram's grandparents talk to Perrin and Elyas about how they're worried about Aram and how he was finding following the Way of the Leaf difficult, which brings up discussion about what happens to Tinkers who abandon it. So the seed of doubt in Aram was already there. That's often how being ta'veren works. It requires the person to already have that seed there to persuade them. It is possible that Aram leaving may have happened whether or not Perrin was ta'veren. They were in pretty stark circumstances where the Way of the Leaf -- not taking up arms to defend yourself --  may have seemed especially impractical to Aram, given the only other alternative was to see yourself and your loved ones slaughtered by trollocs.

Anyway, back to what I said about that seed. That partly explains why Aludra didn't cave. Not an ounce of her would ever think of sharing that secret with Mat to begin with.

But I always thought Ta'veren-ness happened on a wide scale and couldn't be controlled. (like I always thought Aram was a display of the negative effect a Ta'veren could have just by being in proximity to someone)

It doesn't always work in a person's favor. And to some extent when a person tries to use their ta'vereness, it depends on Wheel's needs.

I don't know how much you know about Aram yet, but Aram's looking for a cause and purpose to fill the void left from leaving his people and way of life and Perrin's largely ignoring him.

Upon discovering that Suldam and by extension Tuon herself can learn to channel, she gives the excuse to Mat that, while she can learn to channel she 'chooses' not to, and that is the difference.

 

Is that not a shallow excuse? The Seanchan still leash them and make use of their abilities. It would have been a fair argument if the channelers were executed or stilled.  Its similar to saying, I'm no murderer, but I'll get a mercenary to do it for me.

It's somewhat of a weak excuse, but Tuon really doesn't have an option that wouldn't, in her mind, throw her entire culture and nation into chaos, and potentially dissolve the Empire. (We as readers may cheer at that option, but as a leader of that nation and feeling responsible for it and believing it's a good thing, Tuon's making the only choice possible to protect it.) Her reasoning is a nuanced approach that will  likely cause some disagreement if it ever became public.

I disagree with your analogy, though. It's more like "I've a genetic disposition towards violence and murdering, but I choose not to act on it."

Demandred mentions that Balthamel's love of excess will get him killed one day as it had in the past.

 

When did that happen? Balthamel in book 1 wasn't killed by greed and gluttony. If anyone that was what happened to Aginor

That wasn't necessarily foreshadowing, but giving us some info on the character. Balthamel was rezzed as Aran'gar, though, and you can see it in the character.

 

In TDR. How did Moiraine figure out that Lord Brend was Sammael after just being in town for a little while? Is he that obvious?

That one has never had a good answer. It mostly gets chocked up to "Moiraine is awesome".

Pretty much. This is one of the things for which there's not really a great explanation. The most we can infer is that Moiraine's educated herself on the Forsaken, and from the intel she gathered in Illain about this fast-rising star in politics, she was able to deduce who it was. Sammael didn't mask his appearance, so the odd new figure in politics combined with a physical description that is pretty specific (short, large scar on face, etc . . . ) allowed her to figure things out. We've already seen how Moiraine has access to the Blue eyes and ears network, so while the people in the network in Illian may not have figured it out, they likely would be a good source of information for the politics in Tear. The odd dreams everyone in Illian was having were another oddity, too.

But the pattern is EVERYTHING and we aren't really shown how you can fight it. How do you fight something that knows literally EVERYTHING about everyone and controls things in such a way that it appears natural? This isn't a computer this is reality itself. What methods does Shaitan have of going against the grand design?

 

And are you saying I can't even enjoy it when the Chosen does something cool? :(

You need to keep reading. The game that's being played can't really be fully discussed until after tGS. And stop spoiling yourself. Half the questions require more spoilers to answer, and the other half you need to read about in context before judging.

Anyway, the Wheel doesn't know everything. It gets feedback from the system. Imagine it like a supercomputer anticipating the most likely moves to happen a number of steps ahead of time. It's an incredibly complex system, but that doesn't mean it's not beatable.

And there's some thematic concepts we can't discuss until you finish the series anyway.

Oh, so more "Rand is special" nonsense, gotcha. -___- (sigh)

As Suttree said, it's not Rand. It has to do with the differences between the weaves used. Not only do the weaves vary and were developed independently, but one's saidar and one's saidin. It's pretty straightforward.

Speaking of "just very talented". Does the Pattern choose talented people to be Ta'veren? Or does being Ta'veren contrive to make you very skilled? Does the man make the Ta'veren or does the Ta'veren make the man?

It's hard to draw the line. I think the ta'veren chooses people who it can work with, so people who already have some type of talent-base, tapped or untapped, and then works from there.

If, for example, it was the other way around, I'd imagine we'd have some quite comical reading, where the unskilled ta'veren is always bumbling about in the most clumsy fashion, even while fighting, but luck just saves him or her every time. Our ta'veren are lucky, but they seem to be naturally skilled as well.

No, I get that perfectly, it's just I see lots of people putting lots of stock in this knowledge when it comes to fights. It's more a fascination with the fandom than a criticism of the source material

 

For instance. People say that in a fair, completely even fight. Sammael could beat Rand because of his knowledge of the AOL... sorry, but I just haven't seen enough evidence of that in the story to believe that.

Keep reading the series. I expect you'll see some things that help explain the way people talk.

Haven't read the book, but I'm kinda going out of my mind right now...

 

Demandred doesn't get to use any brilliant battle strategies... or anything? :( :( :( (whimpers)

It's said he does. The overall battle-wide tactics are left pretty vague, though.

Finished it last night ~2am and absolutely loved all of it. To be honest I'm a little surprised at some of the vitriol/disappointment in this thread about the ending. Was it perfect? No, but the books have never been perfect. 

 

 

7) Morgase. Is it her character arc that's supposedly being published in a fantasy anthology later? 

Demandred.

 

I do not know why fans believe it is imperative that a angreal or a sa`angreal have to have a buffer?

Maybe it's Cadsuane's comment in TPoD, Chapter 27 that Callendor lacked the standard safety buffer that other angreal have?

It's not inconceivable that there may be others with a similar... manufacturing flaw (as RJ put it), but it was thrown in there at literally the last minute. 

The Aes Sedai do have a claim to fame aside from channeling as an institution. They were the first group to pull back together after the Breaking. They are the one's who have preserved what history they can, and were probably the first to start redeveloping technology (such as printing presses). Civilization recovered as well as it did because of the White Tower. They've also been a major mediator and negotiator between the nations of the westlands for thousands of years; their influence has only just recently waned. Should Aes Sedai today be proud of that legacy? Some certainly take it too far, but they don't feel special because they can channel, they feel special because they identify with the institution, for their high education and for their training.

That's been the understanding, I assumed they came back, however it now begs the question, how did Maradon fall with 100 Ashaman? 

I think exhaustion is the only explanation. Dumai's Well was an all out assault to free Rand, not a prolonged defense. Channelers are highly effective, especially in the short term, but if you need them for a prolonged defense you're going to have to be rotating them, facing exhaustion, and attrition.

 

 

Am I the only one who found the whole anti-Balefire thing to be a bit of an ass-pull?

Not really, Nynaeve did the same thing with compulsion. But the name was cheesy. Flame of Tarvalon

It was a bit of a cheesy moment, but we don't need to take the Flame of Tar Valon as an official name like some people want to. That's what it was a symbol of to Egwene. It held the world together against the Shadow, a beacon of light in the dark.