lol Night thinks I'm a Marxist.

I enjoyed SoT through the end of The Pillars of Creation despite its flaws (and I even felt Goodkind's prose improved a lot between the first and the second book). It jumped the shark after PoC. I felt Faith of the Fallen was even an interesting novel in the spirit of Ayn Rand that was a little overdone but definitely tolerable. The Naked Empire and the following books just became regurgitations of the same argument with long monologues, lots of contradictions, strawmen, and more than anything just plain redundant. I don't know why Goodkind felt the need for putting long-winded summaries of the same event multiple times in the same novel. It's like "dude, you can just reference it with a few sentences, maybe even a paragraph or two, I'll know what you mean, you already explained that just fifty pages ago in excessive detail." Then a couple hundred pages later he'll do it again, with the same excessiveness. Ugh . . .

And I read the series when I was in my Objectivist phase anyway. Goodkind doesn't deserve to be compared to Rand (I actually enjoyed The Fountainhead). The latter books are just horrid, even if you agree with the philosophy.

 

The argument people are using is that WoT and SoT have a higher than usual number of very specific similarities - not just things that are generic within the fantasy genre, not just one or two very similar things but a lot of very similar, non-generic things.

Yes and I keep asking what those things are and then just get referred to old threads or ignored.

 

I posted quite a few on the previous page.

Yeah, what Sutt says. We're not talking about generic fantasy tropes which both are guilty of. We are talking about incredibly specific things. And it's not just one or two, but many things that go beyond generic. Look at the detail in some of my comparisons on the previous page.

Suttree: If you're using the same tropes it would follow that they are used generally in the same ways at the same times in a story. Prophecy for example usually comes early in a story, with bits and pieces sometimes becoming clearer as the story goes on until the end where it's made completely clear.

 

Agitel: See my argument above. You can provide thousands of examples and that isn't going to sway me unless you address the fact that if these things are not unique to just SoT and WoT (the vast majority are not) then why would it matter how many examples there are? A thousands bad examples does not make a good argument is what I'm saying.

To what you said to Suttree. Come on, Nolder, we're talking about things far more specific than "OMG both of these fantasy stories have prophecies!" or even "OMG both of these fantasies have a hero's journey arc."

To what you said to me. We're not talking about direct parallels between two series, not direct parallels between one series and an entire genre. It's not that there are tropes commonly found and shared by fantasy, it's that SoT takes so many of its tropes directly from WoT and uses them in the same way. You don't say "Well you also see this element in this book, and this element in this book, and so many books use this . . ." It's that you say "Wow, you see so many of these tropes and devices in the Wheel of Time serving the same function."

It's not that WoT and SoT have some all-female magical institutions. It goes beyond that. Male wizards are derided/looked upon with fear/need to be controlled. There are no organized male institutions in the modern day. Plus you have the a'dam. Similar magic systems. The organization is similar. I'd dismiss all the examples you provided above. The only one that I'd give credit is that both of them have parallels with the Bene Gesserit of Dune. But then you look at the magic systems and what do you have? Two gender specific types of magic (Goodkind introduces a few variations later on in the series, true), and magic is performed by weaving together strands of elemental powers in a specific fashion. Let's not forget the secret group of magic users sworn to a Dark One that exists in both factions. Both organizations splinter. And again, it's how closely the two organizations parallel, not just that there's an all female institution.

Then there's the magic that stems from the Dark One/Underworld itself that most can't use.

Then there are collars that control magic users.

Then there are the parallels between the Seanchan and Imperial Order. Massive empires that forbid free use of magic and exert total domination over magic users and are invading and conquering the main setting.

Then there's the Blood of the Fold and the Children of the Light.

Then there's the ancient civilization that existed roughly 3,000 years ago where people worked magical wonders together that ended in a great and devastating magical war that also involved the creation of a lot of magical beasts to fight the war.

Then there's the most recent war that occurred twenty years ago that involved armies coming over the mountainous wall to the east and invading the primary setting, and if we want to go further, directly led to the necessary conditions for the protagonist's birth during that war.

Then there's the protagonist winning over the invading force in the most previous war to their own cause by becoming the leader of their respective groups (of which they are descended from through their fathers).

I mean, it's not that all of Jordan's ideas were the most original things ever. There's a number of stock fantasy tropes, and Jordan made fair use of them. The thing is, no author uses all fantasy tropes; no author uses the majority of potential tropes. They pick and choose some as they like to give their series a unique flavor. The thing about SoT is that Goodkind's choices follow Jordan's choices very closely. So close that a reader is hit not just once or twice but over and over again with the feeling that they've read it before, and they can point to a single source. The typical humble hero's beginning I can forgive (though the fact that they were both adopted and were raised by a single-father figure after their mother died early on in their childhood. . . ). That's almost a default for a lot of fantasy, and Jordan's received criticism for it as well.

 

 

but there are farmers in other areas of randland. What makes these ones special?

It's a culture that has been formed and shaped through extreme isolation in a bubble. They are unique. 

 

I think the cultural bubble would explain the development of the longbow being isolated to the Two Rivers.  I don't think it explains why they are all excellent marksman/significantly better than other archers.  Having a unique design of bow doesn't automatically them better shots, it just makes them capable of shooting further.  Using their longbows to fend of wolves and participate in feast day competitions will be an experience common to most farmers in mountainous areas in Randland.  This wouldn't be sufficient to make them superior to trained archers.  The only thing I can think of is that everyone in Randland comments on their skill purely because they can shoot further while still hitting a target, which is really down to their bows.

 

I just assume they practice frequently. Probably in competitions. As a cultural thing.

I wonder if the Andoran royalty lines keep the woman's name in all marriages, or if they only keep them if they are currently royalty.

I don't doubt that Brandon is responsible for Egwene's death sequence. I'm not ruling out a simple note from Jordan either saying that she would die or that he was considering killing her off. The matter of her dying doesn't seem wrong though, even if it was Brandon's choice. My issue is that the execution (pun only slightly intended) was a little corny.

Sanderclown? You embarrass yourself.

And did Brandon confirm it? Even if it was Brandon's choice, Eggy's and Gawyn's death were prophesied as a possibility. Or at least Gawyn's. Eggy had a dream about how Gawyn could choose to marry her or not, and that one possibility would lead to an early death, while the other would lead to dying peacefully as an old man, without clarifying which one led to what.

Mat was given back his original. There is a thread for the Unfettered novella "River of Souls" on the AMOL spoilers board. The novella is about a plot arc from AMOL that was largely cut out due to it introducing too much new information right at the end of the series.

again repeating my last questions.

 

Towers of Midnight Chapters 36 through 38; 2 groups of saidar channelers fight against each other in telaranrhiod.  What was the total number of participants within those 2 groups?

 

Around that time, Perrin and some wolves fought against Slayer.  How many wolves participated in that fight?

 

What was Mesaana doing while Seachan attacked the White Tower?  (Gathering Storm Chapters 40-41)

Also, did she get word of it from anyone either before or during the attack?  If so, how & when did she find out and what was her reaction at that time?

Nobody knows. That is why nobody has answered.

My father just finished. He was the one who introduced me to the series, though he's a more casual fan than me. He loved the last book, and said it exceeded his expectations. He's not close to a literature critic, but he's sixty-two and has been reading the series since the mid-90s or so. He's an avid reader in general, as well.

Why doesn't Egwene take the Aes Sedai test?  I seem to remember there is a reason but can't recall what it is.  Obviously Nyn has taken the test, and I assume Elayne will once she's had her children, but why does Egwene not take it too?  I know she has already sworn on the Oath Rod, but if that's ok for her why not just let Nyn and Elayne do that too?

Egwene is Aes Sedai by virtue of being made Amyrlin. That's Tower law (or an interpretation of it). It should be noted that Nynaeve was not required to take the test, either. Egwene asked Elayne and her to just swear on the Oath Rod. Nynaeve volunteered to take the test. Egwene was pleased with her choice because it meant that her judgment in raising them would be more justified to other Aes Sedai. I don't know if Elayne will eventually take the test. I have some speculation, but it's based on AMoL spoilers.

The Two Rivers is very isolated. Woman who will spark or can learn aren't brought out of the region, meaning that they will have children there and pass the trait on. They are reproductively isolated. That is why so many woman who could channel are found there. You'll see that other isolated areas have similar concentrations. However, the culling of males and the fact that Aes Sedai rarely start families also plays a role in reducing the number of channelers and shifting the strength bell curve.

I believe the taint protection is connected with the black veins Rand has sometimes scene and severed in the series, though they may do more than that.

Hawkwing managed to amass a country spanning empire that in and of itself spawned ANOTHER country spanning empire. Did Perrin or MAt ever do anything comparaable?

Well, there are a number of different points to make. That is not necessarily a measure of ta'veren strength. But more importantly, the entire series spans only a little more than two years. By the end, I think you could argue Perrin and Mat could accomplish similar things.

Someone above said that we know that the voice from EotW is not shai'tan. How do we know that? I remember no such thing.

I wouldn't have minded Gawyn taking Demandred down. I foresaw him going to hunt Demandred pretty early. I think it could have worked with Galad and the foxhead medallion, too. Three fights was a little much, though.

This actually came up and me and my hubby where playing some Wheel of Time roleplaying. Myrddraal have some connection to channeling, one theory is that they are created when the channeling gene show up in a trolloc offspring, and they are needed to tun channelers to the Shadow. My question then is, could someone shield a fade, or try to sever them and what would the result be if it was tried.

 

Also I was wondering are Myrddraal born without eyes or do they loose them as they come of age, and at what age to they start to be able to teleport using shadows, I can imagine it to be rather frustrating for their trolloc mother if they do it from birth.

I actually really like your speculation, but I don't think we have the information necessary to answer your question.

Alegmar, he was in EotW and tGH in Sheinar - he is around, but not as much as the other 4. 

I think it was Agelmar. Agelmar Jagad.

Does the Gholam have ANY moments of dignity or competence left before MAt somehow duplicates the Foxhead MEdalion? -____-

 

(god my head. All this stress over the villains is gonna give me gray hairs)

He kills more people. You really should stop spoiling things for yourself. And by spoiling, I don't just mean finding out more on the story, it really sounds like you're spoiling the whole experience.

I wanna know what the hell happened with Demandred in the battle of Shadar Lagoth. Isn't Demandred supposed to be the 2nd strongest channeler who's EVER lived. Just barely second to Lews Therin in everything. A near unrivalled master in both chaneling based and physical combat.... yet he couldn't beat a single Asha'man in a small circle?

 

Yeah, that's a dignified introduction for one of my favourite villains -____-

I think you're missing the advantages being in a circle brings. And was this the circle wielding Callandor?

I dont know where to find news on this..

 

but will the legacy continue? if so will they give rand his peace, or will he come back as an aragon in a cloak in a tavern?

 

 

whats the 4th age mission? maybe a dimensional gap OF TIME UNKNOWN?!?!?!

 

 

any insight?

I'm not sure what your questions actually are.

What do you mean by legacy and "4th Age mission?"

It is RJ's series, of course he would have done better, especially with his background. 

 

Could another author have done better than Brandon? Debateable, but I find it very doubtful. The scale and scope of WoT would have made that difficult.

 

I am just glad the series was finished.

A more experienced author who could handle the greater scope and depth of the series could possibly have done better. That would of course required the more experienced and established author to put aside their own successful projects for years and to be as enthusiastic about the series as Brandon is. I don't think you could have gotten such an author to pick up a task like this. I believe Brandon had only published Elantris and his Mistborn trilogy (which I believe he wrote all at once, not separately) when he got picked up.

then why don't Rand's wounds cancel each other out? 

We don't have an explicit answer. If you'd like me to speculate, however, I've just thought of something. The wounds in Rand's side have something to feed off of: Rand. His body tries to heal, but the wounds and the evil in them keep eating away at him. By themselves, the wounds could overcome Rand, but they also are fighting and destroying each other, limiting their growth. But they can't die off completely because they have fuel to grow with. Altogether it has reached an equilibrium.  The evil of Shadar Logoth and the taint on saidin weren't feeding off of anything. What was put there, remained there. When combined, they used each other up.

EDIT: I'm horrified by the number of simple spelling and grammar mistakes I sometimes make.

Sending the majority of the Aes Sedai to Kandor does make sense. This doesn't explain the missing channelers. It also doesn't explain why at least SOME more were sent to other fronts that desperately needed them. But it does make sense that the Aes Sedai didn't divide up evenly between all fronts and focused on Kandor. At least, it should have, if explained properly. Unlike the other fronts, Kandor had broken wide open. There wouldn't have been a single front at first. Trollocs would have been fanning out through the entire nation, west, south, and east. No conventional army would have been able to confront that, not unless they could form a massive U that could pinch tight. An army of channelers, especially as a highly mobile group, would have been able to drive the Trollocs back together into a single front and been able to contain them.