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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

WoT If...The Wheel Is Just Showing Off?


Mashiara Sedai

In August, I wrote a three part series on the conclusion of The Eye of the World. For this week, I want to do something similar with The Great Hunt. There aren't nearly as many questions for The Great Hunt, but there are some. And one thing I really enjoy about The Wheel of Time series is looking deep into these specific scenes and finding unanswered questions. But, before we start:

 

Spoiler warning! This will include content from many books in the series, including Towers of Midnight, and speculation about A Memory of Light. Please read at your own risk.

 

Also, this WILL NOT contain spoilers from A Memory of Light's Prologue, Chapter 1, or Chapter 11. Please refrain from posting any spoilers from A Memory of Light in the comments section. The A Memory of Light spoiler discussion board can be found here.

 

The ending of The Great Hunt begins, in my opinion, at chapter 47, "The Grave is no Bar to My Call." To refresh your memory, Rand, Mat, Perrin, and Hurin just left Falme; Ingtar stayed behind to try to cleanse himself of the evil he had done. As they leave the town, the Seanchan army advances from behind them, and a Whitecloak army advances from ahead. They are stuck in the middle with nowhere to go.

 

The interesting thing during this scene is that Rand knows he has to "go back" to Falme. This is one of the first examples of the Pattern forcing the characters to do its will. And later, Hawkwing confirms that this moment was destined by the Pattern.

 

"The Pattern weaves itself around our necks like halters," Artur Hawkwing said. "You are here. The banner is here. The weave of this moment is set. We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon."

 

We discussed this a bit when we talked about Perrin possibly going against the Pattern, but I'm going to point it out again. Hawkwing, who has been summoned by the Horn of Valere, who has more knowledge than any living man, says the Heroes will only follow the Dragon. This is the complete opposite of Moiraine's insistence that the Horn could be sounded by Darkfriends and used for the Shadow's side. Robert Jordan had this to say on the matter:

 

Question: Hawkwing says they follow the banner and the Dragon. Moiraine says the Heroes will follow whoever winds the Horn. Was Moiraine wrong?

 

Robert Jordan: *Arch look* Moiraine doesn't know everything. She was speaking the truth as she knows it...However, she is correct in that whoever sounds the Horn "controls the Heroes."

 

Question: Then what happens if the Dragon and the banner are on opposite sides of the conflict from whoever sounds the Horn?

 

Robert Jordan: Then we get a [rift] in the Pattern.

 

First off, this confirms, I think, that Moiraine was incorrect about the Horn being used by the Shadow, at least in this instance. Since Ingtar wanted to change sides, if he had blown it, the results would have been the same (likewise for Verin). However, if another Darkfriend had sounded it, a rift in the Pattern would have formed. No Darkfriend, with the intent to use it for the Shadow, could have sounded it at this precise moment. The Pattern wouldn't have accepted it.

 

Also, in regards to Hawkwing, one thing I've always wondered is why the Seanchan don't notice Hawkwing is fighting against them? Surely they have historical books, or even paintings, to know what he looked like. Albeit, not many were able to get a good look at their attackers, but Min was able to see Birgitte, so some Seanchan should have. And, as fond as the Seanchan are of omens, their ancestor kicking their butts should have made them sail back home as quickly as possible.

 

Another thing of interest is Birgitte's reaction to Rand when he says he needs to save Egwene.

 

"And—and there is a girl. Egwene al'Vere. A novice from the White Tower. The Seanchan have her prisoner. You must help me free her."

 

To his surprise, several of the small host behind Artur Hawkwing chuckled, and Birgitte, testing her bowstring, laughed. "You always choose women who cause you trouble, Lews Therin." It had a fond sound, as between old friends.

 

Obviously, as Heroes bound to the Horn, they have all of eternity in Tel'aran'rhiod. This is such an interesting concept. Think of how well they all know each other. It gives a new meaning to the term "life-long friends."

 

But, when Birgitte is ripped from Tel'aran'rhiod, she has a completely different view of Rand.

 

Winter's Heart

Chapter 12, "A Lily in Winter"

 

"Him?" Birgitte said softly. "Mother's milk in a cup! She could have fallen in love with a cutpurse or a horse thief, but she had to choose him, more fool her. By what I saw of him at that place you mentioned, the man's too pretty to be good for any woman."

 

Why would her fondness and feelings of friendship disappear? She still has most of her memories, so she should still remember him as Lews Therin, like in The Great Hunt. This is something that's never made sense to me. Perhaps when she speaks to him again, since his epiphany on Dragonmount, she'll like him once more.

 

A popular theory right now is that the Horn actually pulls the area around it into Tel'aran'rhiod. Many people speculate that this is how Rand will die and live again (a la Neo in The Matrix). There are a few things in The Great Hunt that point to this conclusion.

 

One is that time actually stops once the Horn is used. Rand thinks that "no time at all had passed since the Horn was first blown, as though time had paused while the heroes answered the call and now resumed counting." We know time in Tel'aran'rhiod is different from normal life, so this could be an indication that they are in the World of Dreams. Another is that Min sees Birgitte shoot arrows at the Seanchan, and the arrows catch things on fire. This special ability could also be seen as proof that they are in Tel'aran'rhiod. Birgitte says later that "My bow is the ordinary sort, today" (The Path of Daggers, Chapter 6, "Threads"), so it is special while in Falme. Also, Rand and Ishamael fight in the clouds. I don't think there's any way this could happen in the real world.

 

Going into that a bit more, why does their fight go into the air? And why is it broadcast all over the world? Moiraine says Rand's battle was seen by everyone in the area (The Great Hunt, Chapter 49, "What Was Meant to Be"), and Taim confirms that he saw Rand in the sky as well (Lord of Chaos, Chapter 2, "A New Arrival").

 

Robert Jordan says that this mirage of their battle was done by the Wheel, not the Creator or the Pattern:

 

Question: At the end of The Great Hunt when Rand and Ishamael were fighting in the air above Falme, they appeared in the sky over many places and my question is whether this is something done by the One Power or something done by the Creator? How did they appear in the sky?

 

Robert Jordan: An effect of the Wheel, really. It wasn't the Creator. The Wheel is more than a simple mechanism. Remember the Wheel can spit out ta'veren, can spit out Heroes as a self-correcting device because the Pattern is drifting from what it is supposed to be. We are not talking about something as simple as a spinning wheel at all, we are talking something more along the lines of the most complex computer you could possibly imagine. There were at that time, two, there were false Dragons that had a chance to create a lot of disruption. By the appearance in the sky at that battle, not just in Falme but in other places, those false Dragons were taken off the board because there was only room now for one, for one Dragon.

 

That only slightly answers the question. Why would the Wheel want the battle to be seen by everyone? Maybe the only point was to thwart the False Dragons? Maybe it was so the world could prepare for Rand's coming? Maybe it was when Rand actually became the Dragon? I think it more likely that happened when he took the Eye of the World, though.

 

This is also an isolated incident. There are more important events that happen through the series, but they don't receive this kind of attention from the Wheel. And it was after this that Rand lets himself be named the Dragon Reborn, not during. In fact, it was five days after the battle that Rand finally "made his decision." So the argument that happened because he was announcing himself doesn't hold up.

 

So, what's the point? Brandon Sanderson said in an interview that this was a "Pattern Level Event," so there must be some reason why the Pattern, or the Wheel, wanted it shown.

 

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the Wheel did it to show off. It's as simple as that. The Wheel is saying, "Look at this miraculous thing I created. Here is my hard work, come to fruition." All the events after the Breaking, the Aiel fleeing, being chased and hurt, finally settling in the Waste; all the events after that, making peace with the Cairhien, the Jenn dwindling, the start of Rhuidean; all the events after the clans were formed, agreeing to see their secret past, the war against the Oathbreakers, Maidens heading for Tar Valon. ALL of this had to happen for Rand to be where he was. Look at all the work, all the planning, the Wheel had to do to get things in motion, to get the outcome it wanted.

 

Why did it pick this scene to show? I've got the answer to that too. What better way is there to bolster the good guys and send fear into the hearts of the bad guys than broadcasting the Shadow's defeat around the world?

 

That's all for this week. Next time, we'll take a closer look to see whether Birgitte will survive the Last Battle.




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ive always considered that the alternate realities that rand saw when he and company went through the portal stones in tGH. are actually happening... they are the wheel's testing of which threads to spin out to get to the outcome of rand winning TG... so, while it could be that the wheel is showing off, i see it that the wheel is more like a monkey jumping on a typewriter... eventually itll get something right, and that will be the weaving it will use...

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I think you're wrong in this one. I think the broadcast was a correcting mechanism of the Wheel to end the "false-Dragons times" by showing to the world the one and only Dragon.

 

Besides "What better way is there to bolster the good guys and send fear into the hearts of the bad guys". This is impossible, as the Wheel doesn't pick sides, it's neutral. "Showing off" would imply that the Wheel is on the Light's side and that isn't true.

 

And my very personal opinion. No reason. It's an epic scene that RJ wanted to write and we all enjoyed SO much (at least it's one of my favourites). Maybe it's true that it was a "Pattern Level Event" in the sense of correcting mechanism but I think that's just an excuse for the too demanding fans xD

If you think about it, there's no reason for the armies to win/lose depending on Rand's fight either. The Seanchan aren't creatures of the Shadow, they're just being manipulated to some extent. And RJ has shown us more times that a war isn't all about one person. Rand winning doesn't mean the seanchan losing (I'm talking about this specific moment in Falme). It's just symbolism, great symbolism and epicness. Just that.

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the wheel was not showing off,the main reason for the appearance in the sky

was rand himself:

for 18 years rand was a nobody,a solid and stubborn sheep herder,living in a

small village.

we all know what happened next,so i am not going to write about it,let me say

that rand is in denial about who he really is until falme,because in falme,the

wheel decided that rand needed a push,not just a small push mind you,a mega proportion push,so the battle was broadcast live for half randland to

watch.

everything changed for rand after falme,exactly what the wheel wanted.

in my opinion all the other reasons are secondary(false dragons,to boost

morale etc)

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I think that jack is right - after Falme, when Rand woke up and saw the picture of him fighting with Ba'alzamon, he wanted Moiraine to burn it to prevent anyone from seeing it. But it was too late for hiding, although all that he wanted was to disappear as quickly as possible. In this way the Pattern finally forced him to make a decision and to truly become a Dragon. It made him understand what the expression "duty is heavier than a mountain" means. That was very clever of the Wheel, given how stubborn Rand is - "So you think you can outsmart me, redneck? Take this!" :)

 

And I simply loved reading that part of the WoT, it was so emotional.

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Mashiara Sedai

Posted

You all raise good points. But, Robert Jordan says the Wheel--which is different from the Pattern--"is more than a simple mechanism." Also, he continues to say that the Wheel chooses to spit out ta'veren, so the Wheel is taking an active role in world events. Specifically, with it's additions of ta'veren, which are Light sided character (Robert Jordan said, "I can't really see how making a Darkfriend or Forsaken ta'veren would help with correcting the drift of the Pattern.") So, I definitely think the Wheel is in favor of not being destroyed by the Dark One, which would make it lean towards the Light.

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ill agree that the wheel is functionally intelligent...

 

there are many reasons why rands battle was seen in the sky over falme... firstly to announce him to the world... secondly, the two false dragons also saw it, and it was the cause of them being captured/killed...

 

the wheel is neither good nor evil, it exists to continue... weaving threads of both dark and light simultaneously...

 

question... do objects have threads? i mean, they are balefireable... and if so, wouldnt all of reality be threads of the pattern, not only lives...?

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Perhaps there is the possibility that the Wheel was establishing Rand as the Dragon Reborn, putting his Ta veren thread in direct line to the world due to the fact that the DO can manipulate the world through his Forsaken...? Or why force them to give up their souls? If this is true, then it explains alot of events in the world, particularly from Siuan's mention of chaos rising from nowhere in the TGH. The Wheel would have to take a hand, as it must ensure the Last Battle at the right point of time. Liandrin and Graendal both explain the DO's abilities regarding death; ahd Rand not been at Falme, then the DO might have destroyed the Wheel right there. This has been at every battle from Rand, Perrin and Mats adventures, harrowing considering the DO will use every trial not overcome and every fortune not taken to destroy the world by default. In TEoTW, He hwas using His links to Ishamael, Balthamel and Aginor to place the world in winter in TEoTW. Considering that Lanfear is free during TGH, I believe the DO using a gust of wind to try and impale Rand on Lan's practice sword in the beginning of TGH is because ALL of the Forsaken are free at this point, not just Lanfear. These precise manipulations of the Pattern by the DO so early in the series even as most of the seals are still intact at this point (bar at least one or two broken at this stage of the series) are due to the link I spoke of above. Hence the battle at Falme to balance things; at least until TDR, lol. Great post Mashiara Sedai, enjoying the theories!!!!

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Firstly, I agree that the fight appearing above Falme was simply a way to proclaim Rand as the Dragon Reborn since Rand himself would not do it, after the battle he could have continued denying it, continued trying to fight it, but all the world would know that the Dragon had been reborn.

 

Secondly, I agree that the wheel is neutral, the Darkfriends and the Forsaken create chaos and imballance, they seek to break free the dark one, and think of all the chaos that would serve, the wheel spinning out ta'veren is, in my opinion simply a counter to this chaos, it is simply just restoring balance to the world.

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In fact I've always felt confused about that: is the Wheel actually neutral? What is the balance we always speak of? Now I read for the first that the Wheel is kinda intelligent, not just a blind mechanism. And I think I'm with Mashiara in that it leans towards the Light - look, has there ever been a scenario in which the DO wins? Yes, the Wheel lets the bad guys act, sometimes they can even rule the world if the Dragon fails, it spins out the heroes and ta'veren to prevent the chaos and to weave as it wants, and the Dragon himself has always a choice, free will - so there is internal balance. But, as the Creator himself doesn't interfere, perhaps the Wheel is programmed for self-preservation. For maintaining the Pattern, which the DO seeks to destroy. The DO is outside the Pattern, so it seems logical that the Wheel is not to let him come and destroy it. If there's no more Pattern or Wheel, there's no more balance - the DO must stay outside to provide the evil factor.

 

Of course, there's always the Dragon factor, which complicates things a little bit - the Wheel may weave as it wants, but he can choose to let the DO win. Would it be an act of his free will or the Wheel's weaving, i.e. the scenario in which the DO finally wins? Is the Dragon's will outside the Pattern??? I think it's very biblical in fact - we are not able to imagine how the free will and predestination can work together, yet they do just that, they both exist.

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What if the Wheel really didn't have anything to do with battle appearing in the sky? It seems more likely to me that it was an effect of The Horn of Valere. We have this powerful artifact of unknown origin and power. It brings dead heroes back from the grave to fight for whomever blows it, but we don't know what else it is capable of or necessarily why it was even created. The success of the dead heroes seemed directly connected with Rand's battle in the sky. When he pushed forward, so did they. When he fell back, so did they. Plus Rand's battle took place in the mist that formed when the horn was blown. It was all linked together and it just makes more sense that the Horn itself is responsible for projecting the epic battle for all to see. Like it has been mentioned in other posts, the Wheel is supposed to be neutral, and it hasn't done anything like this during any other conflict. Sure the battle was also seen where the False Dragon's were, but again we could give credit to the Horn. I fully expect a similar scenario when the Horn is blown again during the Last Battle.

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@polaridin thats a great point... :D the horn did seem to make reality and TAR "closer"... we'll have to wait till the last book to see if the sky event is a function of the horn, or something else... but, i suspect youre right...

 

as far as the hero's winning/loosing as rand did, it could be attributed to "the land is one with the dragon, and the dragon one with the land

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Mashiara Sedai

Posted

That's an awesome idea, Polaridin! Except for Robert Jordan's comment:

 

Question: How did they appear in the sky?

 

Robert Jordan: An effect of the Wheel, really.

 

But I think that the direct correlation between Rand/Whitecloaks vs Ishamael/Seanchan implies some of the effects had to be the Horn.

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@mashiara sedai

actually it was rand/heros, vs ishamael/seanchan vs whitecloaks... it was never implied(as far as im aware) that ithe whitecloaks were working with rand...

it was whitecloaks attacking the seanchan, and rand/heros attacking them both...

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Mashiara Sedai

Posted

Rand and the Whitecloaks were on the same side. Perrin says, "Yes, I was in Falme. I rode to battle alongside the heroes of the Horn, alongside Hawkwing himself, fighting against the Seanchan. I fought on the same side as your father, Bornhald. I’ve said that he was a good man, and he was. He charged bravely. He died bravely" (Towers of Midnight, Chapter 34, "Judgement").

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and yet perrin and company flee the whitecloaks many times in that section...

 

i can accept that "my enemies enemy is my friend", same side maybe, but i would not say he fought WITH the whitecloaks...

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@mashiara

when perrin said that he fought on the same side as bornhald it was a complete distortion of the truth.

everything started in falme because rand small company was trapped between

the seanchan army and the whitecloaks so mat decided to call for help.

perrin had no way of knowing the intentions of the whitecloaks in falme .

when the battle actually started,it was rand vs ishamael and company+heroes

vs seanchan.

the whitecloaks were mere nuisance in falme,doing much of the dying,not much of the fighting!!!!.

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Mashiara Sedai

Posted

We'll have to agree to disagree on this. I know the Whitecloaks aren't good for much, but Bornhald did try to help in this situation. He wasn't a bad guy.

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weren't the whitecloaks annihilated by the damane in seconds? IIRC, "Rand's party" consisted of Verrin, the Shienarans, and the boys.

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weren't the whitecloaks annihilated by the damane in seconds? IIRC, "Rand's party" consisted of Verrin, the Shienarans, and the boys.

and the hero's of the horn...

 

it doesnt say who killed the whitecloaks at falme(i think)... it does say that the whitecloaks were coming on one side, and seanchan on the other... and from previous comments, the whitecloaks likely didnt even know rands party was there... they were attacking the seanchan, and rands party would have been crushed inbetween...

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I'd say you're right that the Wheel was showing off, but that it had a good reason to do so. The Wheel spins out the Dragon, right? Well, part of what "the Dragon" is all about is the mystique that surrounds him and the effect it has on people. A person doesn't attain the status of hero just by fighting and defeating evil, they have that something special that sets them apart. So part of the Wheel's spinning of the Dragon is making that mystique, especially when Rand isn't making it himself yet.

 

Also, I don't think it makes sense to debate whether it was "the Wheel" vs. "the Horn". The Wheel spins all things out, right? So it all comes back to the Wheel.

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@snowball.

you are correct,the whitecloaks were annihilated by the damane in seconds

at the very beginning of the battle.

by the way,rand's company was just himself,mat,perrin and hurin.

verin and the shienarans were not there and ingtar stayed behind to guard

their backs

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@snowball.

you are correct,the whitecloaks were annihilated by the damane in seconds

at the very beginning of the battle.

by the way,rand's company was just himself,mat,perring and hurin.

verin and the shienarans were not there and ingtar stayed behind to guard

their backs

 

hey, i forgot about that :D rand and company didnt meet up with the shienarans and verin until after the battle... even more credance to that the whitecloaks and damane probably didnt even notice they were there...

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I'd say you're right that the Wheel was showing off, but that it had a good reason to do so. The Wheel spins out the Dragon, right? Well, part of what "the Dragon" is all about is the mystique that surrounds him and the effect it has on people. A person doesn't attain the status of hero just by fighting and defeating evil, they have that something special that sets them apart. So part of the Wheel's spinning of the Dragon is making that mystique, especially when Rand isn't making it himself yet.

 

Good point. Basically, the Wheel had plenty of reasons for doing what it did, and we had such a great time reading it. Actually, it's one of my favorite WoT parts - just as tGH in general is fantastic - it's so intense!

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Back to the Horn. When Fain took the horn from FalDara, He wrote on the wall for Rand to fallow him to Falme. Later, when Fain was in the White tower to steal the dagger back, he didn't look at the horn twice and just left it there. Seems to me that he didn't even care about the horn, just rand.He could of taken the horn and killed Mat later to sever his connection. There has been no real effort on any darkfriends to get the horn, just alot of worry by Moraine. Hawkwing said the heroes had to follow the Dragon and the Dragon Banner. I don't think that they would follow a darkfriend. Course if the dfs got the horn then Mat couldn't call the heroes at TG.

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Back to the Horn. When Fain took the horn from FalDara, He wrote on the wall for Rand to fallow him to Falme. Later, when Fain was in the White tower to steal the dagger back, he didn't look at the horn twice and just left it there. Seems to me that he didn't even care about the horn, just rand.He could of taken the horn and killed Mat later to sever his connection. There has been no real effort on any darkfriends to get the horn, just alot of worry by Moraine. Hawkwing said the heroes had to follow the Dragon and the Dragon Banner. I don't think that they would follow a darkfriend. Course if the dfs got the horn then Mat couldn't call the heroes at TG.

 

we actually have no idea where the horn is... its somewhere that only verin and suian know of... i doubt its in the tower, i suspect that verin took it to the two rivers...

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