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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

WoT If...Aes Sedai Can Grab Waiting Souls?


Mashiara Sedai

Hello, all! Welcome back to "WoT If?", Dragonmount's weekly theory blog. Today's topic is a little speculative, but I'm convinced I'm on the right track to how Rand's "to live you must die" riddle will be solved. As always:

 

Spoiler warning! This will include content from many books in the series, including Towers of Midnight, and speculation about A Memory of Light. Please read at your own risk.

 

Also, this WILL NOT contain spoilers from A Memory of Light's Prologue, Chapter 1, or Chapter 11. Please refrain from posting any spoilers from A Memory of Light in the comments section. The A Memory of Light spoiler discussion board can be found here.

 

Let's start with a little background information about the Nym. This might seem off topic, but I'll tie everything together. According to The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time, Nym are artificial constructs, like Trollocs (Chapter 21, "The Ogier"). The Nym were created to aid the Da'shain Aiel in seed singing.

 

Chapter 3, "The Age of Legends"

 

Farmland produced optimum yield through use of the One Power. In a method called "seed singing," Ogier (a separate race of beings gifted with the ability to aid and enhance growing things), Nym, and Da'shain Aiel worked as a team, focusing the One Power to insure perfect growth for every field they "sang."

 

In the actual series, we see the Green Man, the last Nym, in The Eye of the World (Chapters 49 and 50). He teases us with knowledge (using phrases like "Child of the Dragon" in reference to Rand, and "wolfbrother" to Perrin), but his memory's not what it used to be due to the wound he suffered in the Age of Legends. This scene really piques our curiosity with all the tantalizing information we're almost given. And it makes us want to know more about what the Nym did before the Breaking.

 

We see the same Nym, Someshta, in the glass-column ter'angreal in Rhuidean (The Shadow Rising, Chapter 26, "The Dedicated"). In this scene, we see him given the task of protecting the Eye of the World. Going back further, we see an actual seed singing, with Someshta, Ogier, and male Aiel. This is the important part:

 

Coumin wondered if he could ask Someshta about Charn's stories. He had spoken to him once, and Someshta was old enough to know if Charn was telling the truth; the Nym were older than anyone. Some said the Nym never died, not so long as plants grew. But this was no time to be thinking of questioning a Nym.

 

The Ogier began it, as was fitting, standing to sing, great bass rumbles like the earth singing. The Aiel rose, men's voices lifting in their own song, even the deepest at a higher pitch than the Ogier's. Yet the songs braided together, and Someshta took those threads and wove them into his dance, gliding across the field in swooping strides, arms wide, butterflies swirling about him, landing on his spread fingertips.

 

Seed singing uses the One Power to strengthen the crops. Ogier can't channel. The Aiel can't channel (those who can are taken to be Aes Sedai). Is Someshta the one who is channeling? It does say Someshta takes the threads and weaves them.

 

If the Nym are artificial constructs, how are they able to access the One Power?

 

Well, last week I talked about how Myrddraal might be able to access the True Power, and they are artificial. It's not too far of a stretch to apply the same logic to the Nym. Let's look at a quote from Robert Jordan in regards to constructs and souls:

 

Question: How does the idea of souls apply to constructs such as Nym and Trollocs? Could either of them be reborn?

 

Robert Jordan: To whoever put this one forward, this is one of the best questions I've ever gotten! Nym and Trollocs both have souls, and either could be reborn, but since Nym were a pure construct (i.e. each of them was individually made, like hand-crafting) a Nym would not be reborn as a Nym. You might say that a Nym's soul was borrowed temporarily from the supply of souls awaiting rebirth. A Trolloc, however, bears a twisted, or corrupted soul, and would be reborn as a Trolloc. Though frankly, a Trolloc's soul is such a pitiful thing, it hardly seems worth calling a soul.

 

So many things leapt out at me from this statement.

 

1. "One of the best questions I've ever gotten!"

 

I think Robert Jordan's enthusiasm for the question suggests the importance of it. Why would he get so excited about the concept of Nym souls unless it has some bearing on the future plotlines? Of course, his typical RAFO answer is used for really important things, but perhaps he thought he could disguise something important in this statement?

 

2. Pure construct vs. animal/human hybrid construct

 

Trollocs, made from animal and human mixtures, are not pure constructs. They are organic, made from living things, but morphed into something else. Nym are pure constructs, completely artificial—they are made from plants, but not sentient beings. If that's correct, why are they attuned to plants and growth? I'd say it's because of the soul inside them; the soul is able to amplify their nature. Since they are constructed from plants, when the soul is added, those plants are given sentient life.

 

3. A Nym's soul is a human soul

 

Wolves are always reborn as wolves, Trollocs are always Trollocs, but Nym aren't always Nym. That is such a strange concept, which leads me to the conclusion that Nym would be reborn as humans. And the only reason I can think of to explain it is, that since Nym are filled with a soul artificially, the souls come from the Pattern's pile of waiting, human threads.

 

4. "Borrowed…from the supply of souls"

 

This makes my eyes pop! Only the Dark One seems to have the ability to snatch a soul after it's dead and place it inside a body (a dead body, which is like a construct!). But this quote seems to imply that the Aes Sedai had access to souls that they could store inside the Nym bodies.

 

Anyone could sit around and make constructs all day. Make a body out of clay, make a body out of snow, make a body out of grass and leaves and vines. But something has to be done to the body to make it alive. Someone needs to give it a soul. The Creator wouldn't say, "Oh, here's a construct that looks okay, I'm going to send the next waiting soul into it." That's taking too much action, and the Creator doesn't get involved. Also, why would the Creator fill the Nym, and not a snowman?

 

That means it is the Aes Sedai. There's no other way it could work. And if Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends found a way to access the "souls awaiting rebirth," there's no reason one of the channelers of this time (Nynaeve) couldn't figure out how to do it too!

 

If Rand dies, as we all know he must, it seems plausible that someone will simply grab his soul and place it back inside his body. I speculated in my first post that Nynaeve might learn how to Heal death, but I think it's just as likely she will learn how to grab a soul that's outside the Pattern.

 

That's my prediction for this week. It's not too different from other theories already circulating, but I like to back it up with plausible proof. Post your thoughts, whether you agree or disagree. We won't have too long to wait until we find out.

 

That's all for this edition. Next time, we'll take a close look at some of Min's later viewings. Thanks for reading.




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Interesting, and I am intrigued by your your main topic and hope to bears fruit. Something a bit to the side of your main topic just out at me though. I do not thinbk it is the Nym himself who is channeling. What immediately comes to mind is an offhand comment Alviarin makes (I think in knife of dreams, but perhaps CoT) remebering what Mesaana told her about call-boxes, that they did not always require channeling because of "the standing flows." I think it is more likely that the nym and the seed singers manipulate an infrastucture of tied or maintained flows that can be accessed by ter'angreal and contructs.

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On the topic if Nym uses the one power.

 

I believe the Nym work in a similiar way as ter'angreal that they make use of the power but they don't actually channel themselfs.

 

The seed song is what makes the Nym work much like Avi thinks one of the ter'angreal found with the bowl of the winds requires singing to function.

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@mashiara.

i like your theory.

the only aes sedai who can pull it off is nynaeve,she is powerful,resourceful

stubborn with never say die attitude.

now,the relationship between nynaeve and rand is fascinating,in the earlier

books she behaves like an annoying big sister,but something changed between them around winter heart(even before the cleansing).

it started with baby steps,but now its a very strong friendship,sure nynaeve

is still nynaeve with her grumpings etc,but she cares deeply for rand.

counting out mat,perrin and his three lovers,nynaeve is his only friend.

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@jack of shadows I agree with you about Nynaeve's relationship with Rand. That change is one of my favorite themes in the later books. Although I would have to disagree that she is his only friend outside of Mat, Perrin, Elayne, Min, and Aviendha. I would say Loial, and Lan would qualify as friends.

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I think this makes sense for constructs, as we see this done with Perrin's Power-forged hammer, i.e. Hopper's soul gets infused into the metal by the Asha'man and Aes Sedai. Works for cour'souvra. Why shouldn't it work for reanimation?

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Very clever! But I'm wondering... if it's that simple - just grab a soul and it's done - wouldn't Aes Sedai have resurrected people in the AoL? If they had that kind of knowledge and skill - and Rand should have it now - one would think there were some limitations preventing grabbing souls just like that. Perhaps they could place a soul in a construct like Nym but not in a human body - but then, why? With no limitations it would be quite a dark business, close to playing the Creator. It's mysterious, anyway.

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To pile on to Mashiara's theory, what if... the Aes Sedai can only "borrow" souls from The World of Dreams? In other words, they can only manipulate those souls that are special enough, heroic enough, timeless enough, that live in the World of Dreams after they die. Conversely what if the Dark One can only restore the souls of those that have sworn to him? As you pointed out, Trollocs have souls, but I very much doubt that Aes Sedai could put a Trolloc soul inside a Nym construct. Interesting idea for a WoT-themed horror story, but probably unlikely.

 

As gwenifer said, I don't think it's as simple as pulling souls from just anywhere. It can't be so simple. But if there were limitation on what kinds of souls they can use, such as those that still inhabit T'A'R, then perhaps....

 

But it does bring up one very cool question: What about Gholams? They're constructs, too. And if I'm not mistaken they are also "pure" constructs, right? Do they have a soul? Where do THOSE souls come from?

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Wonderful stuff. The only problem is the soul tranfusion. I agree that they could make a receptacle to hold a soul in the age of legends but could you really choose which soul you take. Seems unlikely otherwise the would just keep reviving people in the age of legends and everyone would have been immortal. So it seems more likely they could draw a soul in but not a specific one. (meaning bring the nym to life but not as a reincarnation of a specific person) On that note I think the theory Rand will come back Bridgette style (i.e. ripped out of tel'an'rhoid (please tell me I spelled that right)) is far more likely.

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I don't think we've ever had a full explanation on how Moghedien was able to rip Birgette out of TAR. She arrived in the physical world with her body and soul intact. Could this be how Rand will get to live after he dies? And if it is, could he have his hand back?

I'm not completly sure if Rand will be brought back. Avienda's daughter seemed to have more questions about her father than normal than if she had grown up with him around.

Still the comment from Robert Jordan is interesting and deserves analysis.

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i dunno about this one... the function of the souls seems right, but, isnt rands soul, one of the few(100ish) hero's of the horn, who's soul "lives on" in TAR... could we then call it in the "waiting pool of souls" if rand is still using it as he lives in TAR? and if its in use, how could it be "seized and stuffed back into rands body"?

 

i could see how the AS could(and apparently used to) have access to anyone, who's not a hero of the horn, but that seems a little much... i mean... "TG IS COMING, but some dumb AS accidentally put the dragon into a snowman" seems like too big of a plot hole...

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xD sorry, im just having repeats of "TG has been cancelled do to the dragon coming down with ent-itis"

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I would only add one thing...the Song. I have read a lot of theories...but very few on the importance of the Song that the Tinkers are searching for. Being that it is likely (almost undoubtedly) the song the Aiel sing with the Ogiers...perhaps it has a part in Rand's possible...resurrection. Just a thought.

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Rand has to die at Shayol Ghul. This is the one place where a cour'souvra can be used due to the weak reality there. I think the cour'souva could be used to ensure the correct soul is placed back into Rand's body.

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Mashiara Sedai

Posted

Sorry, guys. I had midterms due yesterday. :P

 

A good point was raised about Rand's soul still being "active" in tel'aran'rhiod. Maybe his soul isn't in the waiting area. But, at the same time, those souls do get spun out, so it must be possible to access them. And while I like the idea of a cour'souvra, it's dark magic, and probably not the best way to bring him back.

 

I think Birgitte's rip from tel'aran'rhiod is what will kill her in the last book. It's not a natural rebirth, and I think her body and mind are revolting against her current life.

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Very interesting article! I like this theory.

 

I think Birgitte's rip from tel'aran'rhiod is what will kill her in the last book. It's not a natural rebirth, and I think her body and mind are revolting against her current life.

 

This question has always fascinated me, maybe you could write an article on it. -Was- Birgitte's rip "outside of" the Pattern? If you go back to the first time Loial told Rand about Ta'veren, it seems like "having the soul of a legendary hero ripped from tel'aran'rhiod prematurely" is not in the category of "a small change that the Pattern can accomodate." She's saved Elayne so many times, you have to wonder if Moghedian's actions really were part of the Pattern (making sure there's a strong supernation that will survive after Tarmon Gai'don).

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I think Birgitte's rip from tel'aran'rhiod is what will kill her in the last book. It's not a natural rebirth, and I think her body and mind are revolting against her current life.

 

i agree, i dont see brigitte living through the last book... she's taken a sword for one... but, i dont think she's been un-made as a hero of the horn... i think she will die, and be reborn almost immediately, in time to get back together with gaidal, as we know is reborn(and we know who he is)... she was also always younger too...

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i know this is off-topic... but, PLOT TWIST! what if brigitte dies before elayne has her babies, and, one of her babies, is brigitte reborn?

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in reality, i would say yes, babies have souls... in randland, i dont know if RJ gave the pre-born souls, of if theyre injected at birth...

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Call me skeptical, but I'm pretty sure "souls" are not what Rand injected into Elayne. ;)

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i just meant... that randland has many similarities to our own, and also, several differences... and the issue has not come up before in the book... and i dont know RJs personal opinion...

 

again, id say that babies have souls before their born, but it would still be an ironic twist to the books...

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Mashiara Sedai

Posted

This question has always fascinated me, maybe you could write an article on it. -Was- Birgitte's rip "outside of" the Pattern? If you go back to the first time Loial told Rand about Ta'veren, it seems like "having the soul of a legendary hero ripped from tel'aran'rhiod prematurely" is not in the category of "a small change that the Pattern can accomodate." She's saved Elayne so many times, you have to wonder if Moghedian's actions really were part of the Pattern (making sure there's a strong supernation that will survive after Tarmon Gai'don).

 

I definitely think Birgitte being ripped out was part of the Pattern's plan. I don't think anything anyone has done has been outside its plan. Even the Forsaken's actions have been according to its plan. That's the point of the Pattern, at least as far as I can make out. It's there to balance the Creator and the Dark One, so it takes good and evil events into account.

 

i agree, i dont see brigitte living through the last book... she's taken a sword for one... but, i dont think she's been un-made as a hero of the horn... i think she will die, and be reborn almost immediately, in time to get back together with gaidal, as we know is reborn(and we know who he is)... she was also always younger too...

 

Don't jump the gun, Mark. I'm going to talk about this next week!

 

If we want to start a philosophical debate over when a soul enters a body, let's go to the White Ajah boards. :P

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If we want to start a philosophical debate over when a soul enters a body, let's go to the White Ajah boards. :P

 

black tower doesnt have ajahs... so i just asked brandon :)

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