Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Sign in to follow this  

WoT If…Thom Saved the World?


Mashiara Sedai

Welcome back to "WoT If?".  As we look deeper into A Memory of Light, there are several foreshadowed events that need further examination.  The topic of this week's scrutiny is Moiraine and how "important" she was during the final showdown. 

SPOILER WARNING.  This will include content from A Memory of Light.  Please DO NOT read this if you have not completed the book.

Moiraine.  Everyone was so happy for her return.  She was the embodiment of Aes Sedai for most readers, and her influence over Rand was what helped him become the Dragon Reborn in strength.  Early on, we had some hints that she was coming back, that she really wasn't dead.  Min thinks:

 

A Crown of Swords
Chapter 35, "Into the Woods"

What good to tell him he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone?

Moiraine was the only viewing of hers that had ever failed.



This lets us know, pretty early on, that Moiraine might be coming back.  We know Min's viewings are never wrong, so even though she doubts, we can read between the lines.  But this also brings up the point that Moiraine will do something that will help Rand win.  We see more of this when Mat actually rescues the Aes Sedai.

 

Towers of Midnight
Chapter 54, "The Light of the World"

"I'd have to give up half the light of the world to save the world. Bloody snakes."

"To save the world?" Thom asked, looking down at Moiraine's peaceful face, her body wrapped in the patchwork cloak.  He had left his pack on the floor.

"She has something yet to do," Mat said.  The pain was receding somewhat.  "We need her, Thom. Burn me, but it's probably something to do with Rand. Anyway, this had to happen."



This is quite obvious.  Moiraine will "save the world."  Or is that what's really being said?  Moiraine's return would save the world, not necessarily Moiraine herself.  Let's look at what Moiraine does which might constitute as saving the world.

1.  Make Rand remember laughing and crying (The Gathering Storm, Chapter 50, "Veins of Gold").
I thought for sure that Moiraine's return would be what caused Rand to come back from the edge of madness and destruction.  Since Cadsuane did it, Moiraine's sudden appearance didn't add anything to Rand's state of mind.  He was surprised to see her, but it did nothing for his well-being. 

2.  Tells Egwene she must break the seals (Chapter 6, "A Knack").
This was an important part of the Last Battle.  If the seals weren't broken, Rand couldn't re-seal the Dark One.  However, it wasn't Egwene who broke them.  Logain did.  And he would have done so even without Moiraine's insistence.  As far as we know, the Asha'man knew of Rand's plan to have the seals broken.  Moiraine's words wouldn't have swayed Logain in the least.

3.  Help Rand by linking with him, Nynaeve, and Callandor (Chapter 23, "At the Edge of Time").
This was supposed to be one of the key moments during the Last Battle.  Rand thought long and hard about who could be trusted enough to link with him at this fight.  Moiraine's aid might have been considered saving the world, except that she didn't do anything of any real use.  Aviendha—Rand's original pick—could have easily substituted in with no outward change in the event.  And if Moiraine was given the prophecy of saving the world, Nynaeve would need a similar prophecy because she helped just as much—if not more—than Moiraine.

Since Moiraine didn't really add much to Tarmon Gai'don, let's see who was a better fit for "savior of the world."

Perrin: He killed Lanfear, who had him under compulsion, and kept her from killing Nynaeve, Moiraine, and Rand right before the deed was done (Chapter 48, "Light and Shadow").

Moridin: He used Callandor and unwillingly gave Rand the True Power to use as a buffer (Chapter 47, "Watching the Flow Writhe").

Nynaeve: She gave Alanna andilay, which kept her lucid enough to release Rand's bond.  The same argument could be made for Alanna, too, that she saved the world by releasing Rand's bond (Chapter 46, "To Awaken").

Egwene: She forced Rand to let go of all the guilt and all the names on his list of dead women (Chapter 38, "The Place That Was Not").

Tam: He reminded Rand that he could use one-handed sword techniques, which kept him alive as he dueled Moridin (Chapter 15, "Your Neck in a Cord").

And finally, the only way it could be Moiraine who saved the world: Thom.

Since Moiraine was rescued and bonded/married Thom, he was there to protect the entrance to Shayol Ghul: "Someone will need to guard the entry into the cave, my wife" (Chapter 23, "At the Edge of Time").  If Moiraine had not survived, Thom would not have been present to dispatch all the Darkfriends who tried to enter under different disguises.  If Aviendha had been the other woman, there wouldn't have been a Warder to guard their backs.  So, with that logic, Moiraine might have been the savior, but only because she fell in love with Thom Merrilin.

That's all I've got to say on this particular issue.  Let me know what you think.  For next week, I'd like to look at the Horn of Valere and who else—besides the Heroes—might be bound to it.  Thanks for reading.
 

Sign in to follow this  


User Feedback

Recommended Comments

Interesting idea Mash but...

 

You seem to be glossing over the fact that Moiraine ensured the Dragon's Peace. Rand was about to walk away before she made her grand entrance.

 

That would have meant that the armies of the light would not have been cohesive and fared much worse than they did fighting together. I think they would have eventually given up when they thought that "all hope was gone, all light was gone" which would have meant that Rand couldn't keep resisting the DO on his own.

 

I do agree that without Thom guarding the cave, it would have been total disaster with Nynaeve and Moiraine trapped by their link with Rand and being unable to defend themselves or him.

 

I suppose Perrin could have been there earlier if he hadn't pushed himself so hard and done the job from TAR but there were quite a few enemies that Thom laid to rest so maybe not. I don't think Lanfear's compulsion would have affected Perrin against them (killing women I mean), she was having a hard enough time controlling him anyway and didn't order him to let Slayer live so...

 

 

Share this comment


Link to comment
Share on other sites

I got it- If Aviendha had been in the Pit of Doom, she certainly would have tried to do something stupid like stab the Dark One with a spear, which surely would have ended the world. Moraine's presence prevented one of Rand's girlfriends from being there and getting him killed. They were able to be off getting other people killed because of Moraine.

Share this comment


Link to comment
Share on other sites

youve completely forgotten about Knotai(mat). if he hadnt taken the raken and flown it like a madman after the pilot morat'raken died he wouldnt have been able to kill fain, and mat was the only one who could have stopped him since he survived the poison of shadar logoth and was able to take a hit from mashadar. he was also the general of the army of light and without his knowledge of battle they would have lost because like bao the wyld(demandred) said he was the best battlefield commander and only someone with the mind of an ancient could have out manuevered Bao. and finaly the shadow itself helped win the last battle. by compelling the four great captains the shadow cleared the way for mat to come in and win the last battle then kill fain. mat was also the one who found olver who blew the horn, would the horn have been blown by the light if olver hadnt done so. would faile have given it to anyone else to get it out of the trolloc camp. i realy find it hard to believe that the forsaken and darkfriends are so inept. how were the aes sedai in the AOL not able to defeat them. i understand that they previously had no knowledge of battle except what they read about, and the female aes sedai wouldnt help because they thought it to risky, but eith being trapped in the DO's hidey hole made them all stupid or the AOL aes sedai were equaly inept. we also have to look at vanin and harnan as saviors of the world because without them faile would never have been able to get the horn back from darkfriend hands and olver would never have been able to blow the horn. then there is Fortuona. without the seanchan army and fortuona being the new empress(thanks to the complete destruction of the seanchan imperial family, except one, by semirahge(sorry i cant remember how to spell her name) more lack of forsight) the seanchan army wouldnt have been able to counter the sharan army with there own troops.theres also Gawyn, without his attempt to kill demandred he wouldnt have died which would mean the egwene wouldnt have sacrificed herself and taking with her m'hael and the rest of the sharan channelers, and she wouldnt have been able to convince rand to let go of his pain at the deaths of his friends and his people. theres also lan who killed demandred " I didn't come here to win, i came here to kill you" great line by the way, without him the army of the shadow would still have had its general. so all in all it was a team effort that won the last battle and let rand seal the DO back in his hole, which was what rand said was needed.

Share this comment


Link to comment
Share on other sites

You seem to have missed something important.

 

Yes, Moiraine didn't have a big impact on Rand's mood when she turned up - he had already had his light epiphany. But simply by reappearing, Moiraine did something that nobody else did, nobody else in the world could possibly have done - be removed from Rand's list of people that died because of him.

 

As YouMayCallMeElci points out, she also was vital in establishing the Dragon's Peace, which not only unified the nations, but also brought in the support of the Seanchan. Without that, infighting would have left Rand with a very different view of events from within the Dark One's void. And it was Rand's final epiphany, due to seeing 'his people' fighting on when all seemed lost, that allowed him to do what he needed to do.

 

Oh, and who else would have made more sense as the third person in Shayol Ghul? Aviendha? She needed to take out Graendal. Elayne? Other than being the only one who could be the leader at Merrilor, she was also pregnant, which made that a foolhardy option. Alivia? Rand needed people he could trust. Egwene? She needed to die to show Rand how to fight, so she couldn't be there. Which other channeller would Rand have trusted enough? The closest is Cadsuane... but in as much as Rand had forgiven her, it never seemed like he truly trusted her the way he did Moiraine, Nynaeve, Aviendha, Egwene, and Elayne.

 

So who would have been the second woman if not for Moiraine? Probably Aviendha... which would probably have resulted in an army of compelled Aiel and soldiers on the foothills of Shayol Ghul marching in to defeat the three.

 

But then, it's worth noting that all of the major (and many minor) characters had their parts to play. If not for Gawyn, Egwene wouldn't have been so foolhardy as to put herself in a balefirefight with M'Hael, which resulted in the Flame of Tar Valon weave discovery and Egwene's death, two events that were essential to victory. And if not for him, Galad wouldn't have risked his life to take on Demandred, which ultimately resulted in Lan defeating Demandred. That's just one example of a character's important role to play in events. So saying that Moiraine is the saviour is a little bit of a stretch - it's that her presence was one that was necessary for the world to survive. Just one of many threads that were necessary.

Share this comment


Link to comment
Share on other sites

How do we know "To Save The World" is in reference to fighting the DO?  Maybe that is actually in reference to the Dragon's Peace, which comes after the last battle?  Maybe without Matt giving up half the light of the world, the world would have fallen to chaos after the Last Battle killing itself off even after Rand's victory.

 

I fully believe Moraine's duty was to help establish the Dragon's Peace, saving the world after the DO was defeated.

 

In this case, no one other than Moraine could have effectively done it.  She was her own "savior model" by dying and being reborn.  She held a special place in Randland because of her connection to Rand, and she was an expert on the prophicies.  She was the best person availible to secure Peace between the nations.

 

[Also, one of the images Rand uses to remind himself of the strength of the people is of a woman who gave up everything to find a boy in the Two Rivers.  He starts naming off people that have defied the DO: the woman who ran away and had a child on dragonmount, the man who raised him as his son, etc.  With Moraine coming back, those sacrifices were not in vain and actually were positive images for Rand to regain his strength.  I don't think this fulfils the prophecy Matt got, though, as I just don't see it strong enough.  I honestly believe Moraine was needed for the Dragon's Peace.]

Share this comment


Link to comment
Share on other sites

While I certainly won't argue that Thom had a major influence on keeping things whole, Brandon Sanderson actually stated (in a tweet that I can't find right now) that the thing that Moiraine had to do to save the world was to make sure that Rand and Egwene arrived at the last battle together and not seperately.

 

In addition, while Egwene wasn't actually the one to break the seals, it's entirely possible (probably likely) that if Rand hadn't given them to Egwene they never would have been stolen by Taim's lackies (they were taken from Egwene; Rand would have known immediately if he'd still had them) and Logain wouldn't have ended up with them.  Hard to say what would have happened at that point.

Share this comment


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Perhaps it hasn't happened yet...  Highly unlikely, though if the speculative outrigger novels happen(Matt's adventures in Seanchan and Shara, ascended Rand and whatever he gets up to, etc), perhaps the bits of prophecy that haven't been tied up with be addressed then...  

Share this comment


Link to comment
Share on other sites

 Let's look at these, one by one.  :D

 

You seem to be glossing over the fact that Moiraine ensured the Dragon's Peace. Rand was about to walk away before she made her grand entrance.

I don't think Rand would have left.  Egwene was calling his bluff, and he admitted it; but he never would have walked away.  At the same time, if Moiraine hadn't shown up, I don't think Egwene would have been stupid enough to refuse Rand.  I know a lot of people don't like her, but she does have some sense.  So in this, I don't think Moiraine added too much.

 

 

youve completely forgotten about Knotai(mat).

For Rand to win (ie: go into Shayol Ghul and defeat the Dark One and Moridin), Mat help was unnecessary.  His aid saved a ton of Aiel, and his maneuvering of the battle cause many to live who would have died, but Rand could have completed his tasks without Mat (at least in my opinion).

 

 

Moiraine did something that nobody else did, nobody else in the world could possibly have done - be removed from Rand's list of people that died because of him.

 

I don't think this really factors into anything, since the whole list vanished when Egwene died and told Rand to "let go" (as I quoted above).  Whether or not Moiraine was still on the list, it was Egwene who rid him of the list completely.

 

I fully believe Moraine's duty was to help establish the Dragon's Peace, saving the world after the DO was defeated.

 

Perrin was the final mastermind behind the Dragon's Peace, offering a way to include the Aiel.  I don't think Moiraine did anything beside mystify a few people with her Aes Sedai riddles (and I mean that in the nicest way possible).  The meeting would have concluded the same, I'm sure, without Moiraine's timely appearance.

 

In addition, while Egwene wasn't actually the one to break the seals, it's entirely possible (probably likely) that if Rand hadn't given them to Egwene they never would have been stolen by Taim's lackies (they were taken from Egwene; Rand would have known immediately if he'd still had them) and Logain wouldn't have ended up with them.

The seals were stolen before Rand gave them to Egwene.  He had been carrying around the fake ones for awhile: "Then it happened before," Rand whispered.  "I didn't look them over carefully after I fetched them.  He knew, somehow, where I'd put them" (A Memory of Light, Chapter 19, "The Choice of a Patch"). 

 

Perhaps it hasn't happened yet...

This might be the case, but I agree it's unlikely. 

 

 

They are all good arguments, but I'm not seeing how Moiraine's interference has led to the "saving" of the world.  I'll go look for Brandon's tweet, to see if that is the case, though.

Share this comment


Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think we are all forgetting the most important part of the book, in my humble opinion. Chapter 39, pg. 812, "YOU CANNOT WIN UNLESS WE GIVE UP." His list of all the people who still fought, allof those threads to the pattern were essential to the fight. Lose almost any of them, and the war could have been lost. Every person had a role, Thom, Moraine, Egwene, Mat, Perrin, Nynaeve, Min, Elayne, Aviendha, Lan, Gawyn, Androl, Pevara. Notice how my list gradually went to "lesser" characters? Who would deny, that if any did differently the result would have been drastically worse?

Share this comment


Link to comment
Share on other sites

@mashiara the only thing i have against rand being able to win without mat or perrin, i dont have the reference, but we do hear several neverborn/darkfriends/etc saying "cut off one leg, and the tripod falls" or somesuch... whether that is true or not is another question :)

Share this comment


Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm definitely not saying Rand did it on his own; everyone had their part to play.  That's the wonderful thing about the Pattern, it got what it needed to survive.  Every person was important in their own way and added to a larger whole.  Rereading the ending, you see how essential every character was; you see how everyone needed to be situated just so in order to win.  It's very like the steps that led up to Rand being born on Dragonmount; it's a chain reaction of events and people all working towards the final goal.  The only point I'm arguing is that Mat had to "give up half the light of the world to save the world."  That points to something momentous, something earth shattering.  And Moiraine didn't do anything of that caliber.  She didn't add anything that someone else couldn't have... in my opinion.

Share this comment


Link to comment
Share on other sites

@mashiara completely agree... pity my theory on that got disproven, it woulda been funny... :( that because of mat's one eye, he has no depth preception, and therefore would have killed demandred "by accident", thus saving the world... moraine would have been an irrelevant byproduct xD pity.

Share this comment


Link to comment
Share on other sites

"  For Rand to win (ie: go into Shayol Ghul and defeat the Dark One and Moridin), Mat help was unnecessary.  His aid saved a ton of Aiel, and his maneuvering of the battle cause many to live who would have died, but Rand could have completed his tasks without Mat (at least in my opinion)."   

 

 

except that without mat being at the bore no one would have been able to stop Fain/Mordeth/Shiasm from entering the the cave and killing rand which would have stopped him from re-sealing the D.O.. then Fain/Mordeth/Shiasm would have essentially freed the D.O. and the world would end.

Share this comment


Link to comment
Share on other sites


Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Add a comment...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...