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It Works in Theory: "No man can stand in the Shadow so long that he cannot find the Light again"


hazelkrs1

Cheers, tenacious transients of Dragonmount! Welcome to another weekly installment of "It Works in Theory," Dragonmount's theory blog headed by none other than myself. I've been looking forward to covering the topic of this week's blog for quite some time, so without further ado...actually, let's have a little more ado with our disclaimer:

 

WARNING!!! Spoiler Alert!!! WARNING!!!

 

This blog is based on theories that will include facts and material from the latest books in the series, so if you have not read through Towers of Midnight, continue reading at your own risk! The contents of "It Works in Theory" have been gathered, formulated, and written under extreme pressure and should be considered extremely volatile, highly flammable, and very likely to incite serious fervor and debate. Never puncture or incinerate the blog, and do not expose it to prolonged sunlight or store it in temperatures exceeding zero Kelvin.

 

Alright, so this week's blog is going to take a slightly different approach, but I have a good feeling many will still be excited about the subject matter. We are going to be discussing the Forsaken, particularly their relation to a famous line repeated a few times throughout the series, beginning in the very first book:

 

The Eye of the World

Chapter 47, "More Tales of the Wheel"

 

No man can stand in the Shadow so long that he cannot find the Light again.

 

This quote has been bandied about many times, and it very well could be foreshadowing for an event that happens in the next book, The Great Hunt. Near the end we find out that Lord Ingtar, a Shienaran warrior from House Shinowa, is actually a Darkfriend moments before he sacrifices himself to help save Rand and hopefully redeem his soul somewhat for the dark deeds he has committed. Indeed, he even mentions this line right before charging out to meet the Seanchan and crying out "The Light, and Shinowa!" a bunch of times (I always loved that battle cry; it's almost like he throws in "and Shinowa" as an afterthought). For now, though, let's go ahead and assume the quote might be foreshadowing a much bigger event: the redemption of one, or possibly more than one, of the Forsaken.

 

We'll examine them one by one, and speculate as to the likelihood that they will turn back to the Light in the last book, or would have if they were still alive. To simplify things somewhat, we'll base the likelihood they redeem themselves on a scale of 1-10, 1 being there's no way they turn back, 10 being they're assured to rejoin the forces of the Light. I'm not going to include any more quotes, since I don't want to strain my readers' eyes too much, and because much of this hypothesizing comes from Robert Jordan and Brandon Sanderson quotes as well as The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time, alongside characterizations of them gained throughout the entire series.

 

Aginor (AKA Osan'gar, AKA Dashiva)

Age of Legends name: Ishar Morrad Chuain

Age of Legends occupation: Biological Scientist

 

Aginor was both brilliant and extremely powerful in the One Power, being lower in strength only to Lews Therin Telamon and Ishamael, and possibly Lanfear. He chose to turn to the Shadow because his interest in experimenting with animals was discouraged by the forces of the Light; it was only after turning to the Dark One that he was able to begin to create Shadowspawn. His creations include Trollocs, Myrddraal, Gholam, Jimura, Draghkar, and others. One of the first of the Forsaken to be released from the Bore, he was also one of the first to be killed when he confronted Rand at the Eye of the World. He was resurrected again, only to be vaporized by Callandor at the cleansing of saidin in Winter's Heart.

 

He doesn't have the most rock-solid reason for originally joining the Shadow, but at the same time, his intentions weren't exactly noble either. He doesn't strike me as particularly sadistic; he does what he does out of his love to seek out new discoveries. They are discoveries that have the potential to kill millions of men, true, but hey, all in the name of science, right?! If given the choice, I doubt he'd ever relinquish his love for the dark side of research, and it's doubtful it will ever be considered kosher to experiment on animals in Randland. I know Bela wouldn't allow it.

 

Verdict: 2 out of 10

 

Balthamel (AKA Aran'gar, AKA Halima)

 

Age of Legends name: Eval Ramman

Age of Legends occupation: Historian

 

Balthamel was also one of the first Forsaken we meet on screen and suffers an even more embarrassing death at the hands of the Green Man, Someshta, when he's crushed to death. He was drawn to the Shadow simply for the promise of immortality, which is somewhat amusing considering he dies more than most characters in the books. He is reputed to have a great temper; in fact, it was this temper which is said to be the reason he didn't achieve an honorary third name.

 

As Eval Ramman, he was a womanizer and was known for being a gambler. When he is transmigrated into a female body known as Aran'gar (using Halima as his/her alias), his cruelty and fickleness shine. Generally speaking, those who gamble like to play the odds, so it is possible that under the right circumstances he would chance the Great Lord of the Dark's wrath and turn back to the Light. That being said, his temper and unpredictable nature make it unlikely he would stay in everyone's good graces that long.

 

Verdict: 3 out of 10

 

Sammael (AKA Lord Brend, AKA Mashadar meat)

 

Age of Legends name: Tel Janin Aellinsar

Age of Legends occupation: Athlete, Sportsman

 

Sammael is the jock of the Forsaken. He prides himself on his physical prowess (he is one of the best swordsmen who ever lived) and keeps his frame well sculpted so he can admire his glutes in the mirror. His main reason for turning to the Shadow was his hatred of Lews Therin. Considering himself to be one of Lews Therin's chief rivals, it's very doubtful he'd ever consider rejoining the Light with Lews Therin still on that side. It's also somewhat amusing that all his training and formidable physical gift meant nothing when it came to escaping Mashadar. I really don't think Sammael is smart enough to realize it might have been best to join the Light.

 

Verdict: 1 out of 10

 

Be'lal (AKA High Lord Samon)

 

Age of Legends name: Duram Laddel Cham

Age of Legends occupation: Lawyer

 

We can probably stop right there; everyone knows being a lawyer is one of the seven deadly sins. Just to go through the motions, though... He was known as the Netweaver for his ability to manipulate situations and create finespun webs of deceit and malice. Usually, someone who thinks he is especially skilled at manipulation thinks he can plan for anything; we saw in The Dragon Reborn that Be'lal was drastically wrong in his preparations and eats balefire for it. Even were he to choose to switch to the forces of Light, he most likely wouldn't be truly committing anyway and also wouldn't be trusted.

 

Verdict: 1 out of 10

 

Mesaana (AKA Danelle Sedai)

 

Age of Legends name: Saine Tarasind

Age of Legends occupation: Teacher

 

Mesaana is unique among the Forsaken in being the only one who wasn't a remarkable standout in her field. She was rated average and assigned to a teaching job even though she preferred more of a research position. This constant feeling of being undervalued helped lead her to the Shadow; she wanted revenge on those who doubted her ability. She taught propaganda to young students in order to turn them against their society and their parents. If she still had a fully functioning brain, she would be one of the least likely candidates to willingly turn back to the Light, but it's possible that after many simple lessons, she might learn to stop drooling over herself long enough to grasp that "being nice is good."

 

Verdict: 4 out of 10

 

Semirhage (AKA Anath Dorje, Tuon's Truthspeaker)

 

Age of Legends name: Nemene Damendar Boann

Age of Legends occupation: Physician, Restorer

 

Now this one is one bad mamma jamma. She is one of the Forsaken I can look at and easily guess she was evil long before turning to the Shadow. A particularly cruel sadist, she found her calling in the position of Restorer because it gave her such great opportunity to practice her wicked experiments on willing patients. She brags of how much she has learned of the ability to get anyone to do her bidding if enough pain is enacted. When she is discovered to be committing these atrocities, she is left with either the choice between criminal binding or being severed from the Source; she promptly chooses to roll with the Dark One. Of all the Forsaken, I feel she comes closest to delivering the biggest blow to the forces of Light. Had she succeeded in forcing Rand to kill Min in The Gathering Storm, it's very likely he would have been unable to prevent his own descent into madness afterwards and the Light would have lost.

 

Verdict: 1 out of 10. Ain't no way.

 

Rahvin (AKA Lord Gaebril)

 

Age of Legends name: Ared Mosinel

Age of Legends occupation: Military General, Governor

 

Rahvin is considered another master manipulator, known for using compulsion subtly but often to ensure he has complete control of the situation. He has a weakness for self-centerdness, though, and seems over-confident in his abilities to control everything around him. He is similar to Be'lal in that I doubt either one could ever truly be sincere in trying to turn back to the Light. Then again, he does seem more prone to panic than Be'lal, and might do whatever he can to keep from being killed.

 

Verdict: 2 out of 10.

 

Demandred (AKA King Rhoedran--okay, maybe that's not confirmed yet, but really, it's kind of the only one that would make sense)

 

Age of Legends name: Barid Bel Medar

Age of Legends occupation: High ranking public official, General

 

Demandred had the extremely bad luck of being born in the same age as Lews Therin Telamon. Were it not for the Dragon, Demandred would have been the most prominent, most powerful figure in the Age of Legends. Born literally one day after Lews Therin, no matter what he accomplished in life, Lews Therin was always there doing it better. His jealousy grew into something so much more than the common variety experienced by the masses; it was the most bitter, intense rivalry that itself ended up pushing Demandred to the Shadow. He also seems to have a bigger gripe than even Sammael, and he's still around to possibly be the one who can help take down the Dragon Reborn.

 

He's done a much better job of staying in hiding than many of the other Forsaken, and thus has been able to build his plans for longer and set who knows how many dreadful gambits in motion. I suspect we will be seeing a lot from him in the last book. Besides the fact that there really wouldn't be enough time for him to turn back now, I think Demandred's hatred for Lews Therin is so deep-seated he will never be able to turn away from the Shadow.

 

Verdict: 1 out of 10

 

Moghedien (AKA Gyldin, AKA Marigan, AKA one of Moridin's cour'souvra bondees, AKA Shaidar Haran's plaything)

 

Age of Legends name: Lillen Moiral

Age of Legends occupation: "Advisor for Investments" (basically a Wall Street Trader)

 

Ah, the Spider. She is an interesting one because she has gone through the largest metamorphosis of any of the Forsaken. We all know she started out as extremely cautious; she only acted when she felt completely safe from any recourse. Somewhere along the line, though, Nyneave happened. The level to which Nyneave completely owned Moghedien, forcing her to train powerful channelers on the side of the Light, completely flipped Moghedien's world upside down. Once she was freed, she still had to answer for her ineptitude and became one of Moridin's mindtrapped semi-slaves.

 

Now that she isn't quite so timid, you get a sense she is much more quick to panic, quicker to act, and much more desperate. This is demonstrated by her attack on Nyneave in A Crown of Swords. I feel that desperation actually works against the likelihood she'll turn to the Light; even if she thought there was a chance she might be captured again, she would be sure to flip out and try to take out as many as she could with her as she died.

 

Verdict: 3 out of 10

 

Asmodean (AKA Jasin Natael)

 

Age of Legends name: Joar Addam Nesossin

Age of Legends occupation: Composer, Musician

 

This male Forsaken had by far the strangest reason for turning to the Shadow. He grew up a child prodigy, and many around the world expected great things from him, seeing his potential. He didn't quite fulfill this potential, though, and this left a bad taste in his mouth. When given the opportunity to gain immortality through linking with the Dark One, Asmodean accepted, thinking that with more time he could end up fully realizing his potential.

 

He was beaten in the confrontation with Rand al'Thor in The Shadow Rising and bound by Lanfear in order to deliver to Rand the perfect tutor. Once captured, however, it became obvious that the evil that existed in Asmodean in no way compared to the evil inside the likes of Semirhage. I couldn't find the quote amidst all the "who killed Asmodean" questions for the author, but I do remember hearing that Robert Jordan confirmed that Asmodean had indeed turned towards and was walking in the Light.

 

Verdict: 9 out of 10 to play it safe

 

Graendal (AKA Lady Basene)

 

Age of Legends name: Kamarile Maradim Nindar

Age of Legends occupation: Psychologist

 

How very fitting for us to next visit (Spoiler Alert!) Asmodean's killer. Graendal held an impressive position in the Age of Legends; she was world-renowned for her ability to cure madness of the mind. Before she turned to the Shadow, she lived a very ascetic type of lifestyle, preferring modesty and simplicity over extravagance. Something clicked inside Graendal, however, and she soon abandoned all notions of conservatism or modesty and filled the gap with extreme hedonism.

 

Lately, though, she's had a lot go against her. Plans of hers have fallen apart left and right, and it's clear that the Dark One and Shaidar Haran are not happy with her. I could actually see her coming back to the Light if given the chance, both because she's desperate and because whatever shifted her viewpoint the first time might just shift back.

 

Verdict: 6 out of 10

 

Lanfear (AKA Daughter of the Night, AKA Selene, AKA Cyndane, AKA Silvie, AKA Keille Shaogi)

 

Age of Legends name: Mierin Eronaile

Age of Legends occupation: Researcher

 

And we start coming to the end of the list, not quite rounding it out with Lanfear, considered one of the most vile Forsaken, and the most attractive as well. One of the original members of the team that drilled open the Bore, she has had a central role in storylines throughout the series. It is assumed she died in the land of the 'Finns and was transmigrated into the body of Cyndane. Her reason for joining the Shadow is maybe one of the most classic themes in literature: "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned." She was intimately involved with Lews Therin at one point before he broke off their relationship.

 

Many have actually speculated that Lanfear will be one of the Forsaken to betray the Great Lord of the Dark and turn to the Light. The big reason for a lot of this conjecture is the epilogue in Towers of Midnight, in which we see Rand dreaming about "Mierin" being in trouble. Personally, I just think this is another gambit of hers. She's seemed to change her way of thinking concerning Lews Therin, and would much rather be the one who gets to kill him than try and get him back with her again. It's still a possibility, though.

 

Verdict: 4 out of 10

 

And then we finally come to the Nae'blis...

 

Ishamael (AKA Ba'alzamon, AKA Moridin, AKA Heartfang)

 

Age of Legends name: Elan Morin Tedronai

Age of Legends occupation: Philosopher, Author

 

The baddest of the bad, the darkest of the dark, the Nae'blis, the maddest of the mad, the Betrayer of Hope himself. If Rand al'Thor is the Champion of the Light, then Moridin is almost assuredly the Champion of the Dark. Ishamael has been poised to be the Shadow's best chance of foiling the Dragon Reborn the whole series, and in his mind for the entire infinite history of the Wheel of Time, so there's no chance he converts to the forces of the Light, right?

 

Not so fast, Mr. Hotfoot. Let's take a second to look this over. It appears the main reason Ishamael first turned to the Shadow (and he was the first by the way) was an existential quandary. Unlike many of his peers, he saw no glory or benefit in the promise of immortality. Instead, he was actually searching for an end to what he thought was a cosmic joke being played on all the citizens of the world of the Wheel of Time. Endless turnings of the wheel with no differences, no growth, no lessons learned--all that held no interest for Ishamael.

 

Incidentally, Rand himself actually experiences this same internal conflict during the famous scene "Veins of Gold" in The Gathering Storm. He almost comes to the same conclusion his dark counterpart comes to, but at the last second has a sudden epiphany of what makes it all worth it: love. What does this have to do with Ishamael? Remember, there is a very real link between the two, and foreshadowing has hinted of either a merger or swap between the two since the very first book. During said transfer of souls and/or minds, maybe Ishamael will suddenly be able to see what he's been missing out on all these millenia. This fresh new perspective helping Ishamael to return to the Light might even be one of the keys to helping the forces of Light win.

 

Verdict: 8 out of 10

 

Alright, folks, 'till next time! As always, comment and tell me what you think. If you have any ideas for good theories for us to potentially discuss, please send me a PM or email me at hazelkrs110@hotmail.com.




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respectfully, i completely disagree...

 

i dont think moridin will come to the light... there has been no forshadowing, no reason aside from him sharing a bond(of sorts) with rand... he has never shown remorse or anything of that like... 1:10

 

 

and i think that lanfear will, whe's the one who made the bore in the prison, she would be the perfect candidate to show rand how to patch it... she knows TAR better then anyone else alive(aside from possibly rand sedai, and brigetta)... and, she's already contacted rand seeking for help. she's constantly worked against (most of) the other forsaken and the dark one... cruel and vindictive, yes, remorse, i think so.

 

she wanted 2 things, 1) to challenge the dark one, and 2) to have lews. when she died, and got re-embodied, she was far weaker, and the chodenkals have already been destroyed... take away the one thing someone wants most, and they fall back onto the second. and she knows rand will win now. id give her 9:10 of returning to the light.

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I think Moridin has all the reason to turn to the Light given the chance to have the same kind of epiphany Rand had on Veins of Gold. Ishamael was trying to find a way to stop all of the recurrences in history that's been going on forever. He has this mentality that the only way to stop it is to kill LTT/Rand's soul and stop him from being reincarnated. Probably in the last book he'll have his epiphany on why he should stop the Dark One instead of trying to kill Rand/LTT. Besides the Creator can just easily spawn another thread who'll be the Champion of Light if Rand/LTT's thread were to be burned out. So killing the DO OR the Creator will have to be Ishamael's ultimate goal. but seeing that he hasn't figured out that the Creator is disguised as Bela, DO would have to die :)

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sorry for the double post,

 

One more thing, I think it was already established that Min found the way to properly seal the DO back to his prison. If anything, Mierin has a lower chance of turning to light as compared to Ishamael

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i disagree sdboka, while rand and moridin are sharing certain personality traits, rands epiphany came because he was pushed so close to becoming the champion of the dark and had to make the choice between hatred and love... moridin has never had even one step towards the light...

 

even the man who's name is skipping me, at falma, was a dark friend, but he had remorse, he didnt like what he was ordered to do. i see nothing even close to that in moridin. moridin seams to take pleasure in his evilness... he strokes his cosourvra for fun, and many other aspects... he controls several other forsaken, directly or indirectly. i really doubt he will return.

 

and as far as we know, rand has absolutely no idea how to seal the bore. Lanfear probably does. and i dont see lanfear telling rand, unless, she walks again to the light...

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and min may've found some few hints, in a metaphysical way of peoples thoughts on how to seal the bore... but thats a large jump from metaphysical to being able to put it into reality...

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ultimately, i dont see nyaneve making it to rand... i think she'll end up going to fight with lan...

 

as i see it, the two women who will circle with rand and calendor, arent nyaneve and moraine... it'll be moraine, and lanfear... which will be intentionally ironic, seeing as lanfear and moraine probably dont like eachother much...

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I agree that Lanfear, along with Moridin and Graendal, is most likely to turn back to the Light, but to be honest I don't think her involvement in drilling the Bore will actually be as useful as many speculate. I know it seems fitting, but when her team was opening up the Bore they had no idea what they were dealing with. It was truly a metaphysical Pandora's box and knowing how to open that box doesn't necessarily mean she's best equipped to know how to actually seal it. When it comes to sealing the Bore, more than likely philosophy and metaphysics have to be involved. After all, Rand was unable to seal the Bore before but it resulted in the Taint on saidin, and the seal wasn't quite perfect in that it was weakened over time. I think the actual sealing of the Bore will end up having more to do with the "three becoming one", but that's a topic for another blog.

 

As for Ishamael, I actually think his sadistic qualities are more closely attributed to his madness which comes from using the True Power so much. If you actually think about it, his points of view as Moridin almost exhibit a reluctant leadership aspect as Nae'blis. He also needs to be harsh and not allow any of the Forsaken under him to see any remote possiblity of weakness, which explains things like him stroking the cour'souvra. In that way he reminds me of the gang leader from that movie "3:10 to Yuma". William Evans (the protagonist's son) believes Ben Wade (the gang leader) to have good inside him, and Ben Wade replies "Kid, I wouldn't last five minutes leading an outfit like that if I wasn't as rotten as hell." And yet, Ben Wade does end up showing his good side in the end.

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I strongly suspect there is a chance for Elan Morin Tedronai to turn back. The only reason he turned is that he felt that there was no hope and the dark one's win is inevitable.

 

"You were always so full of thoughts, Elan. Your logic destroyed you, didn't it?"

 

I still think the scene and that quote is so important in the book. It shows me that logic could also bring him back if he sees that Rand's plan has a real chance.

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despotha, good points :) but, lanfear led the team to drill the bore TO look for an alternate power source, they knew what they were doing, they may not have seen the inevitable chaos that has led from their choices, but still. they understood the pre-bore well enough to know what it was, and that another power source lay beyond it. i still think she would be the best candidate to tell rand how to seal it :)

 

and yes, i do think the sealing will have to be a side effect of the three taverin boys. but, i dont think the dark one can fit in the prison anymore... i think that rand+2 women(moiraine & lanfear)+calendor main job will be to slay the dark one, then the fain is stuffed in in its place as a "young dark one" and then the bore sealed.

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Thing is though I think Lanfear had no idea what metaphysical supreme powers she was messing with at the time. She was looking at it from a scientific point of view, there's this mysterious power source that's somewhat unattainable right now, let me just break through and tap it and humanity can soar into an even more advanced age. She had no idea this power source represented the Dark One, and likely the only solution to resealing the Dark One will involve aspects and perspectives that a scientific mind simply would not possess. I think this is the reason Min's role has been stressed so much, she needs to review as many philosophies and conjecture involving the Pattern, the Bore, and the relationship between the Creator and the Dark One in order to come up with how Rand must seal the Dark One's prison.

 

I do love your idea about Fain becoming a "young dark one" lol, unfortunately this seems unlikely. I can only assume no matter how powerfull Rand and his buddies are, they cannot match the power of the Creator. If the Creator wasn't powerful enough to destroy the Dark One, and instead had to create a prison to seal him away, how would mortals, albeit very powerful ones, be able to accomplish such a task?

 

That being said, what if Fain ends up being necessary to help reseal the Bore somehow? Not because he's converted back to the Light, obviously that will never happen, but I've always kind of looked at him as the Wheel of Time's version of Gollum. Hideous little creature - check. Follows around main characters a lot - check. Crazy nimble and quick - check. Completely off his rocking chair bonkers - check. It just seems perfect that he will end up inadvertently saving the day because of his nature

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who knows wether lanfear or moridin will return, but i think at least one of them will, and im banking on lanfear.

 

and for fain, who said the creator wasnt powerful enough to destroy the dark one? perhaps, even on a cosmic scale, good and evil must be balanced? perhaps the dark one, is a part of the age lace, he has greater influence over the pattern to balance that the creators greater power...

 

and i dont see them destroying the dark one, i see it more as two standing waves, each nullifying eachother... both rand, and the dark one destroy eachother, but the rands life that he shares with moridin, will restore him... rand isnt the creator, but he's as close to the pattern as the dark one is... he's just been jailed away to keep him from effecting anything on any really bad scale, until late

 

and i doubt fain will save the day, but he does play a very important role. i really think that after the dark one is destroyed, that fain will be stuffed in its place and the bore sealed. its the only ending that makes sense to me.

 

what greater purpose would RJ have had for a character thats gotten progressively darker then anything we've yet seen, and even, fain was introduced in book 1. clearly his role is greater then just being creepy. not to mention, that fain is moving through the blight increasing his darkness, and probably will be right near shaelgul for TG... he's the right guy, in the right place, at the right time, and i dont believe in coincidences ;-)

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GREAT JOB!!!

I REALLY ENJOYED TO READ YOUR POST.

YOU GAVE ME A FEW NEW IDEAS TO THINK ABOUT WHILE IM RE-READING THE BOOKS NOW..

I DO HOPE WE WILL SEE LANFEAR JOINING THE LIGHT FORCES..

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I highly doubt Fain will be the Key to defeating the DO, It will be LOTR all over again. Sure, RJ was a fan of JRR Tolkien's work but making a fantasy novel mirroring his idol's ending is not RJ's style. Fain will play a major role sure, but not to the point that he'll ultimately defeat DO.

 

Also, mark's idea on Rand with Moiraine and Lanfear in Callandor intrigues me. It fits better than Moiraine/Alivia, Moiraine/Nynaeve, and Nynaeve/Alivia. Alivia would have to find some other way to kill Rand though :)

 

Right now Lanfear is 50/50 for me, that last scene on the ToM bugs me. although there are two things which makes me lean to believe that it is not a trap

 

1. It will not be Lanfear's idea. If anything, it would have to be Moridin's since Lanfear is mindtrapped.

 

2. Trying to trick Rand is really not Moridin's style. He's not afraid of Rand, so I dont think he has any reason to trick him.

 

Thus making Mierin's scene more truthful than we expect it to be. Probably Mierin's mind is really trying to reach Rand to help her from the mindtrap, ala damsel in distress :))

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thats what im thinking sdboka :) the last scene with lanfear, shows me that she does have remorse for her actions... it mayve taken her death and re-birth, it may've taken her mindtrap and continual servititude and torture to break her of those wants. and, i see no reason why moridin would try to trick rand in this fashion.

 

and i dont think fain will be key to defeating the DO, but i do think he will be key to resealing the bore... fine line of distinction, yes, but still :) and moraine said in eotw, that all the aes sedai, together(what, 200-400 linked?), could not kill mashadar, which fain is rapidly becoming, if not surpassing... im not sure, after rand neutralizes the dark one, if he will be able to fight fain(and win)... which then, makes him being stuffed into the prison and sealed there, almost a needed thing, instead of merely happenstance. probably alot easier to push fain then to kill him

 

and yes, i've always had a theory about nyaneve+lan being hero's of the horn, and being the last king/queen of manetherin reborn... in those days "lan" died, "nyaneve" goes psycho and kills everybody(their old names skip my mind)... and since she's the only character we know of who can channel angry........ draw your own conclusions... i think the wheel spins them out together, and they have the tragic love+death scenes over and over... making her place not with rand, but with lan, and the only other character who fits with moraine and calendor, is lanfear :)

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Yeah probably Fain will play a big role in sealing DO. probably similar to how Rand used Mashadar from Aridhol to remove the taint in Saidin. Like what they say in Chemistry, Like dissolves like :)

 

oh and @Despothera: even though it has been proven, I still believe Taim is Demandred!! haha just kidding :) looking forward to next week's theory!

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Hey here is 1 theory I would like for you to kick around...In the first dream that Egwene has, she mentions towers that are falling in the Blight but 1 tower stands tall against the shadow...Could that tower be Lan's Malkier coming back?? Also the grave that Nyneave is knelt over crying on, could that be Moiraine's?? Hmmm just putting it out there.

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sdboka, i dont think rand used mashadar, i think he just knew that his weaves would destroy alot of land and therefore, what better place to scrub off the earth... his weaves didnt seem to use mashadar atall... it was a saidar scrubber, and then he just pumped saidin through... destroying aridhol seemed like a well planned accident :)

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lancer, i doubt it :) i always see that as symbols of the forsaken :) each tower gets higher, before falling... and the one that has fallen, i think, is graendal... she'll probably be a hugely important character in the next book :) then, it could also be moridin(death is some fall)

 

if i remember properly, egwenes dream had 13 towers, and malkiers towers numbered 7

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I've thought for years that somehow, Elan Morin would be redeemed. I had this wacky theory a year or so ago that he and Rand would "merge" in some way, perhaps at the same time that the One Power and True Power might also merge. We've seen strange things happen with Rand and Moridin where the True Power is concerned. If the Dark One is the source of the True Power, and the Creator the source of the One Power, what then are the implications of their respective champions joining? Might the OP and TP also merge and join to create something new; something more "gray?"

 

But then I came to my senses. It'll be a fight. Rand will win. The Wheel will be preserved, and the situation with the Seanchan will NOT be resolved. Remember one of Nicola's Foretellings: "The future stands on the edge of a knife." Which to me, means it could go either way, and that's AFTER the Last Battle. I think that's how the ending will leave us: the DO will be dealt with, but the Seanchan will not.

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@mark I'm fairly certain that Rand DID know that he had to cleanse the taint near Shadar Logath, not merely because he needed to scorch a lot of earth, but because he intended to turn mashadar against the DO's taint on saidin. He'd seen what has happened with the wound on his side, and knew that two different evils would try to annihilate one another. His cleansing would not have worked anyplace other than at Shadar Logath. If he'd channeled all that power at, say, Ebou Dar, nothing would have happened except Ebou Dar would have been destroyed, but the taint would have remained. For the taint to be removed, it HAD to be directed at Shadar Logath.

 

@lancer, Mark is right about the Towers representing the Forsaken, but I think the largest tower represented Moridin, not Graendal. Moridin is by far the most powerful and dangerous of the Forsaken, remember that he was killed in TDR (hence the tower falling down) then transmigrated into Moridin, where he has grown even more powerful, using the True Power almost exclusively now. I don't remember one tower standing "against the shadow." I remember the towers were all black as midnight, hence "Towers of Midnight."

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thats an assumption metalhead :) as i see it, rand didnt use mashadar to cleanse saidin, nor do i see how that could work... i forget which of the aes sedai said it when rand told them where he would cleanse it, and they said that it "seemed an appropriate place"... i think its more likely that the cleansing would neutralize mashadar, not use it for the cleansing.

 

you dont use an oily rag to clean up an oil stain...

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That's a tough question there. I can really see it going both ways. It might have just been Rand taking out two birds with one stone, or it might have been the best place to attempt the cleansing because of the presence of Mashadar. I think myself I would lean towards the latter, Mashadar wasn't being used in the process but perhaps the presence of Mashadar helped ward off the Dark One's influence so it would be easier to remove the taint. Maybe it had more to do with using Shadar Logoth as a filter to help draw saidin through so that it could be cleaned. I have to check on this, but wasn't it suggested in the books that Shadar Logoth sat on some kind of "faultline" for energies and power that Mordeth ended up using to try and experiment with? I might be completely wrong on that one.

 

Either way it does seem like Mashadar was used as some kind of opposing force to counteract the taint, and that they both ended up destroying each other. I understand your analogy Mark, but perhaps it's more like using a leach to clean an infected wound. The leech can be bad for you itself if it's carrying toxins, but using it on the infected area helps rid you of the infection while simultaneously killing the leach.

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It might be a question for brandon... but as for the taint(s) in rands side, they say they are separate, but they do pulse together... they seem alike, but still different.

 

and no, i dont think shadar logoth was on a faultline of power, else, the crater that was shadar logoth would have exastribated that problem... i dont think mordeths power stems from the true/one source, but from the evil of the heart... like the whitecloaks, their vehemence to fight the shadow turned them into the problem that they now are.

 

and if mashadar's taint acted like a leech to sap the taint out of saidin, why isnt rands wounds diminishing? the ashaman sealed them off together, if they were fighting against eachother, id expect one to have won by now...

 

the analogy of the leech works in that one scenario, but i dont think it fits with the other parts of the series... else, he could have built the filter with saidin, and pumped saidin through it, he wouldnt have needed saidir/nyaneve... he needed a clean rag, to clean the oil off of saidin, and i wouldnt call mashadar clean atall!

 

i get both sides, but i still think its more of a happy hapenstance, rand knew that the cleansing would destroy alot, and he had to eventually beat mashadar, and he had the chodenkal to do it, so why not just cleanse near mashadar and hopefully mashadar will get destroyed along the way... two birds, one stone.

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Lanfear turned to the Shadow because she was scorned by Lews Therin. The only way I can see her turning back to the Light is if Lews Therin takes her back and "erases" the scorn. Unless that happens, she will continue to be a woman scorned, whose fury hell hath no. Seeing as Rand already has 3 women, I find this highly unlikely.

 

Moridin has always seemed causually evil to me. He didn't enjoy doing evil, like Semirhage, he simply did evil to accomplish his goals. Still evil, still wrong, but I could see him turning to the light if he could be convinced it made more sense. I doubt we'll see it, but I think it would be more likely than Lanfear.

 

The scene where Rand cleanses Saidin is complicated, but it explains that he creates a conduit with Saidar that connected Saidin with Shadar Logoth. He scrapes the taint off of Saidin with the evil of Shadar Logoth. I don't think that could have happened anywhere else.

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Actually, I agree with both sides of the discussion on the cleansing of the taint question.

 

I agree with the "oily rag to clean an oily saidin" analogy; it doesn't make sense to me that this would work. Nor, if you review the description of how the cleansing was done, does this really follow the sequence of events. Saidar was used as the "filter" to separate Saidin from the taint, but then the taint (basically an essence of the DO) had to go somewhere, so Rand chose Shadar Logoth as the place to put it.

 

Now that is where I also agree with the "like dissolves like" theory. You put the essence of 2 powerful and opposing forces in close proximity and they zap one another out of existence. It's true that the DO is far more powerful than Mashadar/Mordeth, but then again the taint wasn't the totality of the DO, just that small portion of him that oozed out and mixed in with Saidin. So they wound up being relatively equal enough in magnitude to destroy eachother and leave nothing behind (at least, nothing was left as far as we know).

 

That being said, this is definitely a separate topic from the one proposed here. Maybe a mod should start a new thread and move these comments there?

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