[Standard] Final Fantasy VII Mafia - Mafia Wins D4

[Lizabeth]

And were you making sense when you said that Sooh couldn't possibly be scum and changing her read on Darthe the way she did?

[csarmi]

 

 

 

When was mafia a logical game?

 

O_o

 

well it wasn't ever a logical game

but I am making sense here

 

No you're not.

 

You're trying to say that you're making more sense than Nyn and BFG who both explained why it made no sense for me to be scum with Sooh?

 

yes?

[Lizabeth]

 

 

 

 

When was mafia a logical game?

 

O_o

 

well it wasn't ever a logical game

but I am making sense here

 

No you're not.

 

You're trying to say that you're making more sense than Nyn and BFG who both explained why it made no sense for me to be scum with Sooh?

 

yes?

 

Wow.

[csarmi]

And were you making sense when you said that Sooh couldn't possibly be scum and changing her read on Darthe the way she did?

yes

 

There was a possibility of me being wrong there (even knew that qand pointed out why), and I was wrong there, but how does that change anything?

[Lizabeth]

 

And were you making sense when you said that Sooh couldn't possibly be scum and changing her read on Darthe the way she did?

yes

 

There was a possibility of me being wrong there (even knew that qand pointed out why), and I was wrong there, but how does that change anything?

 

And how did that work out for you?

[csarmi]

Anyway. Evening time here. It's quite possible that I won't be back before next morning. Have fun.

[csarmi]

 

 

And were you making sense when you said that Sooh couldn't possibly be scum and changing her read on Darthe the way she did?

yes

 

There was a possibility of me being wrong there (even knew that qand pointed out why), and I was wrong there, but how does that change anything?

 

And how did that work out for you?

 

Darthe got mislynched D1, Sooh got lynched D2. So-so.

[Lizabeth]

It changes things because people explained to you at the time and afterwards why your logic on that was wrong. Including me.

 

Sooh had no reason NOT to vote switch over to Darthe. Town does it all the time and by the very fact taht you were willing to town read her for it it makes perfect sense that she'd do it as scum.

 

As long as Darthe isn't her partner and Ironside isn't her partner, why not join the Darthe wagon? It says nothing about her alignment.

 

And if you're actually town and you can't see that, then I don't know what else to tell you.

[csarmi]

Soo had a good reason not to do a 180-flip on Darthe: to keep her integrity. For instance, she was never going to be wagoned D1 without that maneuver.

 

Why does that matter though?

[Lizabeth]

Soo had a good reason not to do a 180-flip on Darthe: to keep her integrity. For instance, she was never going to be wagoned D1 without that maneuver.

 

Why does that matter though?

Holy crap.

 

Her wagon was not for switching on Darthe.

 

And you actually sound like you believe this, but no. Integrity doesn't matter. She wants a mislynch there. Period. Cory also flipped over onto Darthe, and nobody questioned his integrity for it, so why should Sooh assume her integrity gets questioend for it.

 

And the fact that you and Pral - one of whom has to be town - actually sold it as a reason to read her as town says that it wasn't a bad move as mafia.

 

If she were switching her vote from a team mate to Darthe, then yeah - integrity would be the issue. But no one was going after her for that if i recall correctly - show me the posts if i'm wrong on that one.

 

And it matters because logic matters. And if you're town and you can't see that your logic is wrong here, then I don't know what hope there is for anything else.

[Pralaya]

1. You counter-voted Cory after he voted for you. You stuck to your guns against opposition, which was a good look. But then it seemed that as soon as Cory's suspicion was off of you, you disappeared and never came back. I know it was a holiday weekend for you, so I was willing to cut you some slack at the time, but it's something that bothered me just a little bit.

 

 

 

2. When you unvoted Cory later on, you felt the need to give two reasons. That his wagon wasn't giving any traction AND because he was looking better to you. If he was looking better and you thought he was town, why would others not voting for him matter? Would you have stuck to your vote on him even though he looked better if others were willing to vote too?

Yes, I would have voted Cory if someone else would have given their support. He was not playing his usual game till D2 and iI was still half-doubtful whether he had changed the way he play after I started pointing out. He became better but I wasn't completely town reading him. It is only after sooh flip that I was convinced he isn't scum

 

But then there was the fact that I was having a hard time (before isoing you) distinguishing between you and Csarmi. It seemed like you had done pretty much the same things for most of the game in terms of arguments and actions. But when I went back through your iso I realized that it wasn't so much him following you as you following him.

 

Nyn already outlined everything with the voting patterns, especially with Kat, but for me it's the fact that you seized on his argument for why Sooh couldn't possibly be scum with her "progression" on Darthe. He made it first. You followed. And it's not just that he said it first, but it's that he actually seems to believe it.

 

Then when I was looking at your POEs at the end of the day yesterday, I noticed that although Csarmi kept me in his POE far longer than I thought was reasonable (yes, I know my alignment, he doesn't, but I still think it's ridiculous to argue that Sooh can't be a wolf because of "progression" on Darthe but I can be a wolf when Sooh was trying to shade me all D1 and D2 and I was trying to kill her all D2). At the end he came to a solid conclusion on me that put me ahead of you. And yes, I know my perspective is biased, but his conclusion makes sense based on what happened in the thread. Nyn, BFG, even Cory on D2 recognized it and not even Kat was brazen enough to try to push a different conclusion more than one shading attempt.

 

But with you, you landed on the conclusion that I was more likely to be scum than Csarmi. Not based on any laid out analysis of anything that happened in the thread. But basically because it was convenient.

 

And even now when i accuse you of being mafia, you don't ask me for the reasons why. You just counter-accuse me back. So I'm interested in seeing if you actually tried to cobble together more of coherent argument. And I'll see whether or not Csarmi looks either better or worse. But right now, you're the prime suspect and you're not looking so good....

Because it is very easy for scum to pick holes in townie's story and focus on them . I have done that all the time I was scum. That's why I don't bother asking people why I am being voted.

 

And, no, I have talked about why I have you as scum over csarmi based on voting patterns. I am probably basing it on how I would have played as scum whether or not others agree with me. But, that is what I see

[Lizabeth]

 

1. You counter-voted Cory after he voted for you. You stuck to your guns against opposition, which was a good look. But then it seemed that as soon as Cory's suspicion was off of you, you disappeared and never came back. I know it was a holiday weekend for you, so I was willing to cut you some slack at the time, but it's something that bothered me just a little bit.

 

 

 

2. When you unvoted Cory later on, you felt the need to give two reasons. That his wagon wasn't giving any traction AND because he was looking better to you. If he was looking better and you thought he was town, why would others not voting for him matter? Would you have stuck to your vote on him even though he looked better if others were willing to vote too?

Yes, I would have voted Cory if someone else would have given their support. He was not playing his usual game till D2 and iI was still half-doubtful whether he had changed the way he play after I started pointing out. He became better but I wasn't completely town reading him. It is only after sooh flip that I was convinced he isn't scum

 

But then there was the fact that I was having a hard time (before isoing you) distinguishing between you and Csarmi. It seemed like you had done pretty much the same things for most of the game in terms of arguments and actions. But when I went back through your iso I realized that it wasn't so much him following you as you following him.

 

Nyn already outlined everything with the voting patterns, especially with Kat, but for me it's the fact that you seized on his argument for why Sooh couldn't possibly be scum with her "progression" on Darthe. He made it first. You followed. And it's not just that he said it first, but it's that he actually seems to believe it.

 

Then when I was looking at your POEs at the end of the day yesterday, I noticed that although Csarmi kept me in his POE far longer than I thought was reasonable (yes, I know my alignment, he doesn't, but I still think it's ridiculous to argue that Sooh can't be a wolf because of "progression" on Darthe but I can be a wolf when Sooh was trying to shade me all D1 and D2 and I was trying to kill her all D2). At the end he came to a solid conclusion on me that put me ahead of you. And yes, I know my perspective is biased, but his conclusion makes sense based on what happened in the thread. Nyn, BFG, even Cory on D2 recognized it and not even Kat was brazen enough to try to push a different conclusion more than one shading attempt.

 

But with you, you landed on the conclusion that I was more likely to be scum than Csarmi. Not based on any laid out analysis of anything that happened in the thread. But basically because it was convenient.

 

And even now when i accuse you of being mafia, you don't ask me for the reasons why. You just counter-accuse me back. So I'm interested in seeing if you actually tried to cobble together more of coherent argument. And I'll see whether or not Csarmi looks either better or worse. But right now, you're the prime suspect and you're not looking so good....

Because it is very easy for scum to pick holes in townie's story and focus on them . I have done that all the time I was scum. That's why I don't bother asking people why I am being voted.

 

And, no, I have talked about why I have you as scum over csarmi based on voting patterns. I am probably basing it on how I would have played as scum whether or not others agree with me. But, that is what I see

 

Then read over the arguments and get back to me please.

[Pralaya]

 

 

Who do you think is scum, Pral? I don't even really know your stances right now. I recall you saying you thought it was likely salami was town the previous phase. And that's about it.

I don't see csarmi being scum at all. Between you and liz, I am town reading you better. Pure PoE says Liz is scum, her voting early today supports that feeling

 

 

Why does voting early support that?  If anything, I think scum would want to hold back and get a feel for the thread before a push.

 

This was D2. Early in the day, not early in the game. Makes a lot of difference

[Pralaya]

 

And, I talked about why I find csarmi townier. I don't see scum hard town reading each other early in the game. In a 2 player scum game, distancing is the smarter way to go

In a two-scum game busing your team mate on D2 is the way to go?

 

Your logic is inconsistent.

 

Yes, it is. I don't see why.

[Pralaya]

BTW,I am VT too

[Pralaya]

Also @Nyn (and @Pral if you feel so inclined), how likely is it that Csarmi would be posting this high volume as scum? The game I'm reading through he only has about 60 posts and he was alive to the end of the game.

No, he does not like being scum. He plays disinterestedly if he is scum. He was kind of like that D1 but the rest of the days, he has been fine

[Lizabeth]

 

 

And, I talked about why I find csarmi townier. I don't see scum hard town reading each other early in the game. In a 2 player scum game, distancing is the smarter way to go

In a two-scum game busing your team mate on D2 is the way to go?

 

Your logic is inconsistent.

 

Explain.

Yes, it is. I don't see why.

 

[Lizabeth]

 

 

 

And, I talked about why I find csarmi townier. I don't see scum hard town reading each other early in the game. In a 2 player scum game, distancing is the smarter way to go

In a two-scum game busing your team mate on D2 is the way to go?

 

Your logic is inconsistent.

 

 

Yes, it is. I don't see why.

 

 

Sorry, posted within a quote.

 

Explain.

[Lizabeth]

And Pral, just to expand - explain to me how it is logically consistent for you to say that Sooh's progression on Darthe meant there was no way she could be scum but Sooh trying to shade me all D1 and D2 and me trying to lynch her all D2 after reading her as town at the end of D1 makes is logically consistent?

[Pralaya]

I can confirm that he's not making sense to me, but that's nothing new. At the same time, I feel like Pral might be leaning on his arguments. That's what on my mind right now. I also don't like that Pral was around and didn't claim.

Scum doesn't have to think a lot to claim VT, lol. What else would a scum claim at this point? See my statement earlier about talking pointless things?

[Pralaya]

And Pral, just to expand - explain to me how it is logically consistent for you to say that Sooh's progression on Darthe meant there was no way she could be scum but Sooh trying to shade me all D1 and D2 and me trying to lynch her all D2 after reading her as town at the end of D1 makes is logically consistent?

That was D1 and early D2. Mostly based on meta. Not logic.

[Lizabeth]

 

I can confirm that he's not making sense to me, but that's nothing new. At the same time, I feel like Pral might be leaning on his arguments. That's what on my mind right now. I also don't like that Pral was around and didn't claim.

Scum doesn't have to think a lot to claim VT, lol. What else would a scum claim at this point? See my statement earlier about talking pointless things?

 

It's not pointless if there was another power role in the mix. That's why I asked.

 

So finding out whether or not there's a vig in the mix was the point of asking people to claim.

 

Assuming that you're not claiming vig.

 

There was also another reason for asking people to claim, but since you didn't take the bait already there's no point in following up on that one.

[Lizabeth]

 

And Pral, just to expand - explain to me how it is logically consistent for you to say that Sooh's progression on Darthe meant there was no way she could be scum but Sooh trying to shade me all D1 and D2 and me trying to lynch her all D2 after reading her as town at the end of D1 makes is logically consistent?

That was D1 and early D2. Mostly based on meta. Not logic.

 

Okay, I just looked back at what you said about that. Basically you said that she usually plays the game safe as a wolf.

 

So is it playing the game safe to repeatedly try to shade her scumpartner on D1? And continuing to do it on D2?

[Lizabeth]

And I don't see how joining the Darthe wagon was playing it high risk, as I already pointed out. She came up with an excuse to see Darthe as scum and other people were already shifting towards Darthe I believe. I'll look back at the vote counts again. .

[Lizabeth]

Yeah, she votes Darthe basically after the wagon starts building up on her.