Why so few fight scenes with the female characters?

[WOT1402]

I mean at the very least just get their army to leave Randland and give back all the people they enslaved. I mean that was bare minimum. That's turning the other cheek for their atrocities and unprovoked aggression.

 

Personally they should have just taken the place of the other army that shows up at the Last Battle and fled the continent after the books.

[Sabio]

1. Rand needed their help.  His trip through the doorway proved that.

2.  Rand even said he wasn't sure he could destory the Seachan in Randlan's ability to wage war if they didn't join.  Even if he did it would of weakened him and his forces to the point he might of lost.

3. As we saw there was no way Tuon was giving up their captured Damane.  Had Rand pressed it, Tuon wouldn't of joined and the whole Dragon's peace would of been for nothing.

4. Rand knew as they say he made a deal with the devil, but he needed them to defeat the bigger threat.  The DO.

 

Since talking about Stalin, look at it like this.  The allies sided with Stalin (the Seanchan) to defeat Hitler (The DO).  The allies allowed Stalin to control all of eastern Europe.  He wasn't going to give it back no matter what they said and the only way to get him out would of been to attack him.  Stalin knew the West wouldn't do that.  After all the destruction of WWII he knew the West wasn't going to keep the war going to liberate what he controlled.  The allies turned the other cheek to Stalin's atrocities.  Rand had to give in to the Seanchan to ensure he got their help.  He wasn't sure his forces on their own could defeat the DO and if they did he understood the Seanchan would then roll in and defeat his remaining severly weakened forces.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Matt and Perrin would have been basically irrelevant with their fighting prowess as they weren't nobles and weren't connected to any powerful institution like the white tower which gave evverything the girls did relevance. Fighting was all they had going for them. Matt and Perrin didn't take down and capture forsaken. Rand did but other than him, it was the women who got those jobs done. As mentioned above women were the ones primarily fighting off the forsaken during the clensing of the source. Rand was helpless the whole day, but women protected him fighting off numerous forsaken--no small feat.

 

Elayne and Birgitte fight against superior numbers holding their side of the gateway that Aviendha is unweaving following the use of the bowl of winds.

 

Nynaeve whoops Moghedian.

 

Moiraine is the most impressive fighter in the first book.

 

Semirhage fails in her initial attempt to collar Rand thanks to women fighting her off. Rand does nothing there.

 

I don't get the focus on actual front line fighting as a measure on whether the characters are being shortchanged. Ituralde is a very impressive character that does little if any hand to hand combat. Many of the women in the books are generals as much as front line soldiers, but being a general, steering nations or the tower, are hugely important tasks that have far greater impact than any front line soldier ever could.

[WOT1402]

Because I find it odd that you would go on and o about how powerful the characters are supposed to be but never do anything with that. Be kind of cool to see that instead of being an armchair character or wandering about getting captured. It really was a running joke how many excuses they came up with for why they couldn't use their powers.

 

Because they often aren't POV characters wen that happens and it's usually backgrounded stuff. So yeah we have a sentence saying Birgitte or Egwene does something and that's it. There's little to no POV fighting with the female characters relative to the amount of material involving those characters and the genre. It's epic high fantasy I kind of do expect at least one of them to be involved in some sort of fighting. Whereas in a few fight scenes like Moraine blasting the Trollocs in book 1, Nynaeves fight vs Mogh and the last battle stuff it is foregrounded.

 

Moraine doesn't do a lot past the first book and the other female characters aren't as hands on. My assumption was that at least a few of the characters would be like Moraine but that never happens.

 

Basically my expectation was that it was going

to be a really OTT high fantasy series where the female characters would be really cool and powerful. That just isn't the case. They're mostly

not involved in the fighting and there's a tendency to focus on more travel and politics. Whereas with Rand, Perrin and Matt it's front and centre as you'd expect from a High Fantast series. It's very rare that you get something like, I dunno, it's Egwenes POV, they're being chased by Darkspawn, they make a stand on a bridge and a big fight ensues. There's lots of occasions where those sorts of situations are actively avoided even when it's likely they might occur. For example Matt is running from the Seanchan but he later get the Red Hand and turns the table. With the girls the POV either switches to a guy so we don't get much of them (Falme) or they get away before a real fight happens (Ebou Dar).

[Kesiera_Sedai]

The Seanchan attack Aes Sedai on sight. You should be able to act in self defence just as a presumption of their ill intent. It really got stupid that no Aes Sedai think that people with Channelers walking around don't constitute a threat.

 

They're "a bit preoccupied" for 10 door stopper novels? That just isn't believable because Rand & Co get given many opportunities to be awesome whilst still having lots of non combat stuff to do. They win in those situations because the writer wants them to. If RJ wanted them to be in fights they'd win then they'd triumph.

 

Do the Seanchan channellers even know about linking? I thought the whole point was they didn't know you could do this because ten they would notice that a handler and suldam is much more powerful than an individual channeller? I mean personally I despise how much it's rubbed in your face how much better the Seanchan are to everybody; especially the Aes Sedai. Apparently slavery makes you a better spell caster.

[Kesiera_Sedai]

The a'dam prevents linking.

[Kesiera_Sedai]

The only Seanchan we meet are members of an invading colonial army. I am pretty sure there are lots of people the USSR oppressed who would have had no qualms about killing members of the Red Army or NKVD. So when I say kill Seanchan, to be specific, I mean this army of fascists. We never see any Seanchan civilians, but given that they have pogroms against their own people I wouldn't call them a model society. But yeah, if you could get all the Seanchan army in a field and put them down then that would be a good thing. I honestly don't think Rand would have thought twice about it if he could have done it without destroying the occupied cities. We spend like 12 novels of our heroes doing exactly that and nobody complains. Killing them all is no more or less immoral than what the heroes did. It's self defence as long as they continue to occupy half the continent, make unprovoked attacks against the other half and enslave and torture innocent people for stupid reasons.

 

I mean could you imagine if Red Dawn happened and the US gave up half the United States to the Stalinists so they could deal with a greater threat? If that situation happened and they started enslaving your people would you not think that's something that would get people wanting to fight back and hate that occupying army. That's the situation at the end of the series. That's the deal they make. They make obscene concessions to this faction.

 

I don't like how the series resolved their storyline. Why is it that all the villains get what's coming to them, evil Aes Sedai, all the Forsaken, the Whitecloaks ad everyone emerge for the better; except the Seanchan. There's no justice for the hundreds of thousands they murder, the people they enslave and torture, taking the first steps towards the genocide or cultural annialation of the Sea Folk and Aiel. No recompense for the fact that they helped the Dark One right up until the last few books. Them getting away with everything they did is extremely out of touch with the rest of the series.

 

Yeah, it's a fictional faction and Iam talking about them as a reader of the books. I thought they were a horrible story idea and one that left a bad taste in the mouth. I am being colourful in my language but I did feel that the author gave them a free pass despite being one of the most evil factions in the series. Why make all other villains get their due but not Tuon and her bug armoured Stormtroopers.

 

It wouldn't have been a big deal if RJ hadn't made such a good job of making Egwenes captivity such a really emotional part of her story and it stuck with with me. I really wanted Egwene to get revenge on these people, just as much as the usurpers in the White Tower; if not more. I don't think that's too difficult to understand being annoyed that we re just supposed to trivialise that and all the horrible things the Seanchan did.

[Kesiera_Sedai]

The only Seanchan we meet are members of an invading colonial army. I am pretty sure there are lots of people the USSR oppressed who would have had no qualms about killing members of the Red Army or NKVD. So when I say kill Seanchan, to be specific, I mean this army of fascists. We never see any Seanchan civilians, but given that they have pogroms against their own people I wouldn't call them a model society. But yeah, if you could get all the Seanchan army in a field and put them down then that would be a good thing. I honestly don't think Rand would have thought twice about it if he could have done it without destroying the occupied cities. We spend like 12 novels of our heroes doing exactly that and nobody complains. Killing them all is no more or less immoral than what the heroes did. It's self defence as long as they continue to occupy half the continent, make unprovoked attacks against the other half and enslave and torture innocent people for stupid reasons.

 

I mean could you imagine if Red Dawn happened and the US gave up half the United States to the Stalinists so they could deal with a greater threat? If that situation happened and they started enslaving your people would you not think that's something that would get people wanting to fight back and hate that occupying army. That's the situation at the end of the series. That's the deal they make. They make obscene concessions to this faction.

 

I don't like how the series resolved their storyline. Why is it that all the villains get what's coming to them, evil Aes Sedai, all the Forsaken, the Whitecloaks ad everyone emerge for the better; except the Seanchan. There's no justice for the hundreds of thousands they murder, the people they enslave and torture, taking the first steps towards the genocide or cultural annialation of the Sea Folk and Aiel. No recompense for the fact that they helped the Dark One right up until the last few books. Them getting away with everything they did is extremely out of touch with the rest of the series.

 

Yeah, it's a fictional faction and Iam talking about them as a reader of the books. I thought they were a horrible story idea and one that left a bad taste in the mouth. I am being colourful in my language but I did feel that the author gave them a free pass despite being one of the most evil factions in the series. Why make all other villains get their due but not Tuon and her bug armoured Stormtroopers.

 

It wouldn't have been a big deal if RJ hadn't made such a good job of making Egwenes captivity such a really emotional part of her story and it stuck with with me. I really wanted Egwene to get revenge on these people, just as much as the usurpers in the White Tower; if not more. I don't think that's too difficult to understand being annoyed that we re just supposed to trivialise that and all the horrible things the Seanchan did.

[Kesiera_Sedai]

I don't think it's as simple that since by the end of the series Tuon's mother is dead and since that left no one sitting on the Crystal Throne (which was actually a ter'angreal for Compulsion), the kingdom was falling apart.

[Kesiera_Sedai]

I totally agree...what was the point of being Egwene being trained by the Seanchan to be a living weapon if, for the most part, all she does for the next ten books is demonstrate for a room full of novices and make an Accepted jealous that u can split your flows 14 ways while being dosed with forkroot. Mind you that was pretty awesome, but how about weaving Earth and Fire at a dozen Trollocs and making them explode while simultaneously weaving Air and Water down your silk dress to suck out the blood and remove any wrinkles? That would've been incredible...

[Orderofolde]

Well yeah, linking only requires you to be in the same room as any other Aes Sedai. So unless the Seanchan got every single Aes Sedai by themselves they would have lost. It doesn't require a lot of planning. As shown by Egwene, who beats them near enough single handed whilst depowered. Which was an awesome moment sullied only by the fact that so few dirty Seanchan died.

 

Also, it was pretty stupid that Egwenes besieging army wasn't able to shoot down the attackers or intervene more decisively. I mean why didn't they go for the army outside of its walls? Didn't Egwene have more channellers by that point? Isn't that the more obvious point of attack. I mean we the audience know that those channellers are much better and that army she has is much better and led by one of the best generals in the world. But the Seanchan have no way of knowing this and they seem to constantly underestimate their opponents anyway.

 

Personally I think all of those Seanchan should have died and had their heads thrown through a portal and dumped in Tuons throne room. What else does RJ want me to feel for these people other than contempt. Making Moghdiam and the bad Aes Sedai a Suldam is just plain distasteful. Why punish them and not the Seanchan? The Seanchan woman who was serving the Dark One wasn't even worse than Tuon or most Seanchan; she just did essentially what was always their plan because it directly aided the Dark One. Yet RJ made a big deal out her getting what's coming when really she's not the problem. It's the criminal enterprise that is the Seanchan.

 

Oh yeah I forgot that. The Seanchan also leave their assassins to murder Aes Sedai and indirectly kill Egwenes love interest. It's not like the world is ending or anything. You know, priorities instead of Tuon doing more to sabotage the heroes than the Forsaken.

You have to remember that while Tuon had people working on a plan, she was angry following Rand's first meeting and almost being manipulated.  The Germans had plans to invade Switzerland during WWII but knew this would be a foolish thing.  This was more a knee-jerk reaction on Tuon's part in the heat of the moment than her usual cool and careful calculation.  And the raid in my view wasn't successful, they broke even at best.  The Seanchan also didn't have intel on Egwene's camp or the channelers there, which is why they didn't bother with it.  Granted I agree they should have been the prime target had they been in the know, but there are advantages to attacking the fortified tower over the camp.

 

In the camp following the first few seconds of initial surprise women would have flooded out of their tents and put some serious foot to behind.  The tower didn't allow the sisters to unify, attacking different levels created chaos and disorganization, panic, and they took advantage of the ensuing chaos.  From a military standpoint I would attack the tower rather than the camp.  It is using the enemy's strength and turning it into a weakness. Inside the tower the aes sedai were disorganization, didn't know what was happening, and the Seanchan denied them effective communication until the battle had already gone long.  The Seanchan cut off routes for them to use like the stairwells, and sowed chaos.  If the Seanchan had the ability to have their women zap aes sedai in the camp with shields and swoop down and have some Raken grab them and carry them off, a tiny surgical strike would have been effective with next to no losses on the Seanchan's behalf and the Aes Sedai would have lost some sisters.  We have the glaring and undiscussed topic of those sister's WARDERS who were taken that was overlooked.  The warders can track their Aes Sedai which the Seanchan didn't know!  They like their assassins with the blood rings, but we have warders mad as all get out chasing their sisters down who have cloak ter'angreal.  That would have been interesting to see play out.

 

Unfortunately this is the difference between a soldier who was in war and who understood military tactics and battle strategy who graduated from The Citadel writing, and someone who has no idea about warfare who needed to consult.  BS did his best but it clearly wasn't RJ. 

 

To me, the amount of To'raken they lost didn't justify the amount of channelers they received.  Channelers unable to be used in combat, lol!  How many do you need to do skylights?  The Raken were a very limited resource and ballparking the count they lost more than 20, maybe as many as 30, to include captured women, channelers, and handlers.  We have Egwene POV hearing the screaming of girls and women and smiting the Raken knowing it was better to die than to be leashed.  A big blow not so much to the Seanchan's Special Forces (Fists of Heaven?) but to their limited and prized resources in Raken and to a lesser degree, channelers.  To justify this, we already saw the effects pre-raid of empty flying posts or posts with only one or two Rakken for scouting.  It hurt them worse than they wanted to admit, which is kind of hinted at.  It's just that foolish Seanchan pride in not admitting mistakes or their ever-victorious army actually suffering a draw they didn't want.  But it had to happen to remove Elaida.  Their only gain were the not-so-widely accepted weaves for healing, and the big win was gaining travelling which they got anyway through their alliance with Rand.   

[Sabio]

They might not be very useful in combat but they can still do things like find ore.  Learning how to make a gateway alone made the attack worth it at the time, especially if they were going to plan another attack.  But most importantly, even if the Aes Sedai don't prove very useful, they are channelers who have been chained.  They are channelers who can't be used against you later.  Most importantly with gateways they no longer need the TO'Raken to carry troops.  They can now gateway where they need to go.

 

As for why the rebels didn't come to help.  1. It was night 2. Their were just as confused in the camp 3. If they all went running to the tower to help, there was a very good chance the WT Aes Seai might of attacked them to, thinking they were part of the attack.  Some come to help like Siuan was fine, but imagine if 100 rebels are seen coming at the WT during the attack.  The WT would of had no idea if they are coming to help or are they using the chaos as their chance to take over the tower.  Sort of like the four Aiel clans suddenly coming together when Rand was about to attack the Shaido, he had no idea what their intentions were.  The attack was never meant to be a large attack, it was a raid.  Meant to weaken the WT and test their abilities.  They didn't have the forces for a huge assault.  It was meant to be a fast snatch and grab, while dropping off the assassins. 

 

Warders with their cloaks would not of proven much of an issue to the seanchean.  Are 20 or 30 warders really going to be able to free their sisters?  The cloaks don't make one totally invisible.  Warders are also totally not unknown to the Seanchean, they killed a warder in Falme and took his Aes Sedai captive. Also not sure how attacking the rebel camp full of Aes Sedai and soldiers would of been any easier for the Seanchean.