[Advanced]Lost mafia - Game over - Sili, SK wins!

[Sili Quirrels]

well i dont disagree it was sort of a bad play, but sometimes bad plays can make sense from some perspectives. In this case either besie really did think two vanilla town claims were legit on their own merit or she thought she'd think they were legit if she was town. problem is for besie that she doesn't know what she'd think as town because she doesnt have a lot of experience in that area. being town and being a wolf are two very different things. when someone who is new to the game says they'd behave this way or that as both alignments they are often at least partially wrong. so that comment besie made at the start about doing something as both town and wolf when she's only been a wolf? it was bad. so was the vote.

[Guest]

 

[v] turin [/v]

Lets get this started. I doubt I vote besie this game.

 

these are the people I trust att he moment

Shad

thane

Eldrick

besie

This list seems good to me.

 

 

Seph, So what changed your opinion?

 

Why would you think Bessie lock clear also? Her two targets were both town. Len explained quite clearly how her action could easily be an attempt to set up two lynches.

 

[v] Bess [v]

<- There's only one "s", Turin.  Bothers me because it's an Afrikaans word and the extra "s" gives it a completely different meaning.

 

 

There isn't anything to push. We don't know besie's alignment.

 

But I don't understand why she voted you seconds before dl.

I believed Hallia and Kivam's VT claims. It as a noob thing to do and could easily have gone very wrong. I'm sad that they're gone (we have that much less chance now to get the actual scum) but at the same time I'm glad that I believed them. I moved to Turin cause that's where my original vote was, iirc.

 

 

On another note: I believe the scum were hoping that Zander was pr. He had one post somewhere that I thought... Hmmm. I as scum would have picked that up. So my opinion is that our vig got Kivam. Thank you, vig, for clearing up the uncertainty there. Even though he was town, it was a good game move when looking at the general consensus at that time.

 

 

And a simple request: Can we please use NZ or NZan or NZander when we talk about the Nyn-Zander sub? Just saying "Zander" will confuse me endlessly.

[Sili Quirrels]

bad in the scummy sense i mean. not just a bad play of course of course.

[Shad_]

I thought you liked Besie up until EoD.

[Eldrick4221]

.....

 

These posts are literally back to back.

 

 

 

I no longer think that Besie is scum, just playing badly. It's hard to distinguish those sometimes.

Explain

 

 

I analyzed the EoD. The unvote makes as little sense from a scum PoV as it does from a town PoV. It was simply bad.

 

If this is her first town game, she doesn't know how to town yet, and it would come off as making mistakes. Which is exactly how it feels.

 

What you said about playing both the experienced wolf card and the inexperienced town card...well she is more experienced as wolf than as town. That makes sense.

 

The part that doesn't make sense to me, which I have already discussed at length, is her vote on Turin. I don't see the reason behind it for either alignment.

 

 

Me disputing that Besie CAN be experienced wolf and inexperienced town.

 

Ive already said though, you cant play both cards at once. She knows what good town looks like. She knows what good wolves do and thus how to find them. Being experienced at wolfing means that, on some level, you know what to look for/do as a towny almost as much as having played town, because a good wolf has to fake being a good town.

 

Like, to be a good wolf you have to learn to fake being a good town. I refuse to believe she hasnt picked up on that to atleast some extent. You dont get to play both of those cards when they relate like this.

 

Lenlo agruing that she can.

 

 

Ive already said though, you cant play both cards at once. She knows what good town looks like. She knows what good wolves do and thus how to find them. Being experienced at wolfing means that, on some level, you know what to look for/do as a towny almost as much as having played town, because a good wolf has to fake being a good town.

 

Like, to be a good wolf you have to learn to fake being a good town. I refuse to believe she hasnt picked up on that to atleast some extent. You dont get to play both of those cards when they relate like this.

For some people, but not for others. Depends on how you play I guess.

 

 

You quoting his agruement, and arguing against it, effectively agreeing with me.

 

[unvote]

[v]besie[/v]

 

You voting Besie anyway.

[Guest]

 

Eldrick, who knows? Frankly there are a number  of reasons it could be.

 

some possibilities.

1.) She expected support from another teammate that didn't arrive.

2.) just to get people to chase after me at stat of today and after she flips mafia.

3.) She really is town and incorrectly thinks I'm mafia.

4.) probably a few more that I am not thinking of presently.

Your #3 is closest, sweetheart. [v]Turin[/v]

[Shad_]

And as for YOU Missy

[Shad_]

Your emotional detachment is unnerving. :\

[Sili Quirrels]

oh i didn't read lenlo's argument. i was just discussing the game theory. and even that comment wasn't really disagreeing with him.

[Sili Quirrels]

 

[v] turin [/v]

Lets get this started. I doubt I vote besie this game.

 

these are the people I trust att he moment

Shad

thane

Eldrick

besie

This list seems good to me.

 

 

Seph, So what changed your opinion?

 

Why would you think Bessie lock clear also? Her two targets were both town. Len explained quite clearly how her action could easily be an attempt to set up two lynches.

 

[v] Bess [v]

<- There's only one "s", Turin.  Bothers me because it's an Afrikaans word and the extra "s" gives it a completely different meaning.

 

 

There isn't anything to push. We don't know besie's alignment.

 

But I don't understand why she voted you seconds before dl.

I believed Hallia and Kivam's VT claims. It as a noob thing to do and could easily have gone very wrong. I'm sad that they're gone (we have that much less chance now to get the actual scum) but at the same time I'm glad that I believed them. I moved to Turin cause that's where my original vote was, iirc.

 

 

On another note: I believe the scum were hoping that Zander was pr. He had one post somewhere that I thought... Hmmm. I as scum would have picked that up. So my opinion is that our vig got Kivam. Thank you, vig, for clearing up the uncertainty there. Even though he was town, it was a good game move when looking at the general consensus at that time.

 

 

And a simple request: Can we please use NZ or NZan or NZander when we talk about the Nyn-Zander sub? Just saying "Zander" will confuse me endlessly.

 

 

they wouldn't have targeted zander if he had all bad reads. so u wanna vote darthe?

[Eldrick4221]

 

[v] turin [/v]

Lets get this started. I doubt I vote besie this game.

 

these are the people I trust att he moment

Shad

thane

Eldrick

besie

This list seems good to me.

 

 

Seph, So what changed your opinion?

 

Why would you think Bessie lock clear also? Her two targets were both town. Len explained quite clearly how her action could easily be an attempt to set up two lynches.

 

[v] Bess [v]

<- There's only one "s", Turin.  Bothers me because it's an Afrikaans word and the extra "s" gives it a completely different meaning.

 

 

There isn't anything to push. We don't know besie's alignment.

 

But I don't understand why she voted you seconds before dl.

I believed Hallia and Kivam's VT claims. It as a noob thing to do and could easily have gone very wrong. I'm sad that they're gone (we have that much less chance now to get the actual scum) but at the same time I'm glad that I believed them. I moved to Turin cause that's where my original vote was, iirc.

 

 

On another note: I believe the scum were hoping that Zander was pr. He had one post somewhere that I thought... Hmmm. I as scum would have picked that up. So my opinion is that our vig got Kivam. Thank you, vig, for clearing up the uncertainty there. Even though he was town, it was a good game move when looking at the general consensus at that time.

 

 

And a simple request: Can we please use NZ or NZan or NZander when we talk about the Nyn-Zander sub? Just saying "Zander" will confuse me endlessly.

 

 

First purple bold: That makes sense. I'll have to fact check that, but it's a justifiable reason to vote him, I suppose.

 

Second: Typical way to deal with a dead player subbing in is Player 2.0

[Shad_]

I will refer to them exclusively as Funshine Bear.

[Lenlo]

 

What im saying is this: If you are a wolf you have seen what has gotten your wolf mates caught. You have seen how town hunts. To survive as a wolf you must, to some extent, learn how to scumhunt. 

 

If Besie is town, then it was an honest if incredibly naive and stupid mistake.

 

If Besie is town, then she was banking on people thinking it a naive and stupid mistake. She was setting up whoever didnt get lynched to be lynched D2. She was banking on, with Zander dead and revealed town, people following his reads and thus reading her town as he was confirmed.

 

The fact that I think she is a wolf here means I am giving her credit. I choose to believe she is a clever, talented, scheming wolf more then she is an incredibly naive villager. Could I be? Yes. But I do not believe anyone with her intellect and proven ability would think what she did at EoD was smart or acceptable. Thus I must conclude she did it on purpose.

Towning is never half as easy as it looks from the other side. God I've grumbled as much in this game coming off my own wolf streak and you know I'm experienced.

 

The whole setting up a future mislynch thing--it's not like Kivam's competing train wasn't a competing train. I mean I get that the event leaves a lot of people disgruntled, but Besie lead Kivam's lynch in the first place, so it's not like people were going to be all "let's lynch Kivam because wolf Kiv confirms wolf Besie". Kivam or Hallia would have sank or swam today on their own merit regardless of which got lynched yesterday, no?

 

But the biggest thing--why do you think Besie would try to pull a 'naive and stupid mistake' card in that instance? Surely that would be a naive and stupid mistake. I mean she had a lot of people town reading her and she was taking charge of the village even if it was onto a mislynch. Yeah Turin spoke out against her but a half-decent wolf doesn't panic at one person sussing them and toss all their equity to the wind on a gambit.

 

Turin wasnt the only person against her. I was as well, for one.

 

I just dont see how that could ever be a good plan from any point of view as town. To unvote and leave it to random seconds before deadline? If that was from a townie mindset, its some horrible non-commitment. I disagree on the Hallia/Kiv front. Both only had 3 votes at EoD. That is only 20% of this game, so they were nowhere near consensus wolf reads. Kiv was only up because Bess decided to consolidate on him.

 

 

[v] turin [/v]

Lets get this started. I doubt I vote besie this game.

 

these are the people I trust att he moment

Shad

thane

Eldrick

besie

This list seems good to me.

 

 

Seph, So what changed your opinion?

 

Why would you think Bessie lock clear also? Her two targets were both town. Len explained quite clearly how her action could easily be an attempt to set up two lynches.

 

[v] Bess [v]

<- There's only one "s", Turin.  Bothers me because it's an Afrikaans word and the extra "s" gives it a completely different meaning.

 

 

There isn't anything to push. We don't know besie's alignment.

 

But I don't understand why she voted you seconds before dl.

I believed Hallia and Kivam's VT claims. It as a noob thing to do and could easily have gone very wrong. I'm sad that they're gone (we have that much less chance now to get the actual scum) but at the same time I'm glad that I believed them. I moved to Turin cause that's where my original vote was, iirc.

 

 

On another note: I believe the scum were hoping that Zander was pr. He had one post somewhere that I thought... Hmmm. I as scum would have picked that up. So my opinion is that our vig got Kivam. Thank you, vig, for clearing up the uncertainty there. Even though he was town, it was a good game move when looking at the general consensus at that time.

 

 

And a simple request: Can we please use NZ or NZan or NZander when we talk about the Nyn-Zander sub? Just saying "Zander" will confuse me endlessly.

 

I dont like this post.

[Lenlo]

I will refer to them exclusively as Funshine Bear.

Im in.

[Guest]

 

 

That quote is where I stopped reading, fyi. I need to go shopping with my mom, then I'll be back to finish catching up.

 

Also, it's probably been discussed, but how did Turin die? The vote was randed between hally and Kivam fwict

you confused the hell outta me with this

 

 

He isn't. Who's the other mason?

Thane

I'm cool with that.

 

One of Bessie or Zander is probably a wolf this game btw.  The thing Bessie did at EoD is directly anti-town and her post about affecting her town game to be like her wolf game is actively memorable to me. 

im actually thinking its TOO anti town    as has been pointed out scum have no need to move there let alone do it the way she did

 

Looking back at this quote, I think you have a point here, Dice. It feels like a last attempt to get rid of one of the two towns.

 

 

correction  i went halli seph went besie and shad unvoted   all too late

Seph, why did you change your vote to me then; and why do you feel that I'm town now?

[Eldrick4221]

You're right. It is a very middle of the road answer.

[Guest]

 

Shes also playing the inexperienced player card in terms of her town game, yet at the same time playing the experienced wolf card. You cant play both. Yeah, so youve never towned before but youve been on the receiving end of good towns. You know what to do, what to look for how to spot wolves because your supposedly an experienced one.

 

You dont get to play both the experienced and inexperienced cards at the same time.

I can play both. See my sig.

 

 

 

Hmm... Not as explicit as I thought she had done. Thought she had used it more, but on looking back it wasnt entirely her so its not as bad as I thought.

 

This was the most egregious one I could find though. I ask her why she could believe a VT claim so easily, claim inexperience.

 

In the second one though she says "I know how to wolf. I've only wolved up till now. I'm not sure how to town. Apparently, it kinda sucks.", which is basically the inexperience card.  As I said not as bad as I thought it was, but its still there. Might be some I missed cause I was using key words to search through for rather then rereading every single one of her posts.

hmmmmyeah, I remembered reading a post earlier that came off to me like she was saying "I'm a great townie" and sort of rolling my eyes because she'd never towned before, which was why I asked. I don't know that it amounts to much though. It's kind of striking in that post how confident she is on Zander's alignment though.

Never said I was a good towny. Never. Quite simply: I'm not.

[Guest]

I'm town but I'm not good at it.

 

Not yet.

[Shad_]

Turin wasnt the only person against her. I was as well, for one.

 

I just dont see how that could ever be a good plan from any point of view as town. To unvote and leave it to random seconds before deadline? If that was from a townie mindset, its some horrible non-commitment. I disagree on the Hallia/Kiv front. Both only had 3 votes at EoD. That is only 20% of this game, so they were nowhere near consensus wolf reads. Kiv was only up because Bess decided to consolidate on him.

Well, that was two then.  Besie sort of explained herself at the time what made Kivam the most consensus choice, and Hallia was obviously second because she actually got lynched.  We've all seen villagers do inexplicably silly things.  That's no shocker.  "She's decent scum, she couldn't possibly do something really silly in her first town game!" just doesn't cut it for me, and moreover, I still haven't heard an answer that suits me for why it wouldn't be just as silly a thing to do for mafia.

[Guest]

can we hammer besie yet? i feel like it should be possible. i want answers not information.

Incredibly scummy.

[Guest]

Ive already said though, you cant play both cards at once. She knows what good town looks like. She knows what good wolves do and thus how to find them. Being experienced at wolfing means that, on some level, you know what to look for/do as a towny almost as much as having played town, because a good wolf has to fake being a good town.

 

Like, to be a good wolf you have to learn to fake being a good town. I refuse to believe she hasnt picked up on that to atleast some extent. You dont get to play both of those cards when they relate like this.

Tbqh I'm a better town when I'm wolf than when I'm town. Make of that what you will.

[Eldrick4221]

 

 

 

One of Bessie or Zander is probably a wolf this game btw.  The thing Bessie did at EoD is directly anti-town and her post about affecting her town game to be like her wolf game is actively memorable to me. 

im actually thinking its TOO anti town    as has been pointed out scum have no need to move there let alone do it the way she did

 

Looking back at this quote, I think you have a point here, Dice. It feels like a last attempt to get rid of one of the two towns.

 

I was under the impression dice was responding to Darthe's talking about you.

 

Your response to this doesn't make sense in that light.

[Guest]

well i dont disagree it was sort of a bad play, but sometimes bad plays can make sense from some perspectives. In this case either besie really did think two vanilla town claims were legit on their own merit or she thought she'd think they were legit if she was town. problem is for besie that she doesn't know what she'd think as town because she doesnt have a lot of experience in that area. being town and being a wolf are two very different things. when someone who is new to the game says they'd behave this way or that as both alignments they are often at least partially wrong. so that comment besie made at the start about doing something as both town and wolf when she's only been a wolf? it was bad. so was the vote.

... or very wrong..

 

I can't even deny the truth of this post

[Eldrick4221]

 

Turin wasnt the only person against her. I was as well, for one.

 

I just dont see how that could ever be a good plan from any point of view as town. To unvote and leave it to random seconds before deadline? If that was from a townie mindset, its some horrible non-commitment. I disagree on the Hallia/Kiv front. Both only had 3 votes at EoD. That is only 20% of this game, so they were nowhere near consensus wolf reads. Kiv was only up because Bess decided to consolidate on him.

Well, that was two then.  Besie sort of explained herself at the time what made Kivam the most consensus choice, and Hallia was obviously second because she actually got lynched.  We've all seen villagers do inexplicably silly things.  That's no shocker.  "She's decent scum, she couldn't possibly do something really silly in her first town game!" just doesn't cut it for me, and moreover, I still haven't heard an answer that suits me for why it wouldn't be just as silly a thing to do for mafia.

 

 

So much this.

[Guest]

Your emotional detachment is unnerving. :\

Shad... I don't know what to say. I'm incredibly sad about Zander. I knew he was town. I had no doubt. I really think the scum got him.

 

Now he subbed for Nyn. So I have to clear my mind and try to figure out what he is now. It's... confusing/difficult.