[BASIC/STANDARD] Warcraft: War of the Ancients Mafia - GAME OVER, MAFIA WINS

[alannalynn]

Nolder has enough time to literally quote every post of Penny's but not enough time to give me what I want? I"m so confused

[Nolder]

1.You didn't hunt Scum/give opinions ITT early game;

Well that's not actually true.

You can see from my notes I was paying very close attention and scum hunting.

I don't like giving reads early in the game and I was especially closed off this game because I thought you were scum early on and I didn't want to tip you off that I thought that so you wouldn't change your behavior.

 

Since I gave up on all that I've been as open as any other game.

 

2. There was a LOT of fluff and the gun question thing was plain weird. Felt to me like cover/stalling to avoid real commitments ITT;

Well I tend to post a lot in general and with that comes fluff.

You could say the same for Cory and Xander.

Without the banter it sucks a lot of the fun out of the game.

Granted there's times when it needs to be toned down and I think I balance it for the most part but I'm not going to apologize for the way I have fun playing a game.

 

As for the gun thing.

It helped me derive early reads.

A lot of people have their own techniques.

This was something new I tried and I liked the results.

Probably wont do it again any time soon but it got reactions didn't it?

 

3. You said later that you were 'hunting' me during that time but

a) the things you gave me early minuses for were nuances in my behaviour and my game approach, which were questioned by others and I believe explained ITT by that point.

Maybe so. And maybe some of those things contributed to me eventually deciding you were town after all.

 

You didn't actually seem interested in trying to figure me out.

There was a very long stretch of the game where I was waiting to see what you'd say and do next...and you never showed up.

You had a pretty long absence and even when you come around a lot of the time it's not for very long.

Kind of hard to judge someone in those cases you know?

 

Even said 'I just think she hasn't done enough to be scummy yet' or something, which suggests you're maybe more interested in pushing me/a case than actually really trying to figure me out;

It has to do with how I scumhunt.

The very core of what I do is basically gut reads most of the time.

I get either a good or bad feeling based on certain things and then I try to justify those feelings to both myself and to the rest of the game.

If I'm not able to justify it most of the time I'll either dismiss it or not bring it up to others but it's how I operate.

In your case I felt off about you but yeah like I said at the time you hadn't really done enough to justify my suspicions but I was in a situation where I had to explain myself to the town because they'd been waiting for a case I said was coming.

Normally this is something I would have just dropped quietly but I set expectations and put myself into a bind, you see?

 

 

and b) you never pressed me harder/never took the opportunity to really interact when you put your thoughts into the open. You asked me if you were crazy, I answered I could maybe see where you were coming from and asked you what you wanted to discuss/needed to know and you never came back to me after that. Why?

By that time my interest in your case was going away fast and I was occupied with other things.

There was a point where it was really hard to keep up with this game although I did manage it. Barely.

 

4. I didn't like the wording that you used with your vote on Pral early in the game. It didn't feel like you were voting him because you thought he was Scum, it felt like you were trying to justify your position on the train. I didn't like the way you avoided answering me when I questioned you/asked you for explanation/elaboration on your reasons why you were voting there;

Don't know what you're talking about here.

I don't recall being on Prals train.

Are you talking about when I said we're almost at 50 pages keep up or die?

If so that had nothing to do with positioning I was trying to either encourage him or encourage a train.

Either way would have satisfied me at the time.

 

I don't know what you mean by avoiding you.

If it's something I didn't answer at all I probably missed it.

If it's something I did answer but you didn't like the answer can you quote it please?

 

5. In ISO, your interactions with Zander stand out. You two are mutually not suspicious of each other and you initially only interact/answer/question him wrt reads;

Xander has extremely high charisma.

I said this in a game recently but I can't really help but get sucked into the way Xander posts about hunting the wolves and whatnot.

I don't think there's been a game I've played with Xander yet where I more than briefly sussed him as wolf.

 

Why Xander wasn't suspicious of me is easy.

He was scum who knew I was town.

I was someone he was going to pocket probably.

 

6. You highlight/introduce a 'I don't think there's a Zander-Csarmi scum link' line of thought;

I did? I don't remember this.

 

7. You held back on the Csarmi lynch. To me, it was pretty obviously not his Town game and your 'confusion'/lack of understanding of the case wrt that felt false;

This I did. I was wrong about Csarmi.

It was mostly a gut read.

Which is all I had. You say it was pretty obviously not his town game but newsflash this was probably the first game I've played with Csarmi in like a year and a half maybe. I don't know what his town game looks like.

 

7. You now say Celeste and Shad are Scum, but don't give reasons or elaborate your thoughts.

Not true.

I've given reasons throughout this entire game.

Celeste more than Shad but Shad got his fair share early on as well.

I said I didn't want to waste my time on a Shad ISO when it wont matter and I still don't and I still wont.

If and when Celeste is lynched and Shad and I are both alive and the game isn't over then and only then will I ISO and go into detail with him.

 

Otherwise I'm not wasting my damn time.

 

You focus instead on the idea that there would be no point in doing so, which is weird. If you think they're Scummy and you're Town and nobody else is getting it, it's your job to try and be clear and say why .

You're right that I could try to persuade people with the way I'm thinking on Shad.

But I don't feel like that's necessary.

If I die they know I was suspicious of Shad and that it was an honest suspicion.

That should be enough to go on.

I'm not some super great mafia player that reads between the lines.

Anything I see while reading someones post is easily something anyone else can see if they take the time to look.

 

IMO there's more Scum equity/motive in the way you've been putting them up as options but not locking your 'read/lean' in with your thought process/reasons why.

Ok. Well thanks for addressing that for me at least.

I think you're letting the fact that I don't want to ISO Shad right now as well as a few left over mistakes from the early game really color your read on me. Especially as it relates to Celeste whom I've been clear as day about and held nothing back.

 

I hope through this discussion you'll come to reconsider.

If you have any other concerns or questions for me let me know.

 

As for how you look in comparison to others, like Celeste, that's where I'm torn. I've been leaning them more-likely Town and thus haven't focused enough on them yet to know.

That comes from you bouncing in and out of the thread.

Not trying to be critical but I think you've had to sacrifice some depth in your reads in order to keep up.

Or at least that's what I'd guess is going on.

[Nolder]

Nolder has enough time to literally quote every post of Penny's but not enough time to give me what I want? I"m so confused

What did you want?

Also I'm not done yet.

[Cass]

 

Nolder,

No need for ISO quality case right now/yet.

I want your bare, unadulterated gut feels/thoughts.

In bullet points, off the top of your head, what makes you think Shad and Celeste are Scum?

Go!

 

Honestly there's one thing about each of them that really bothers me.

I find other things when I look but these are the rocks that I have built the church of my suspicion upon.

 

Celeste and this Rustlemania thing.

I am highlighting as we speak how she's continually lied about explaining what she meant. She's been casting negativity and doubt on my game since very early in the thread and although I've tried to pin her down on it every time she either gave me a vague response or said she already explained it. This is just extremely scummy and something I can't ignore. I hope you'll have the time to look through the posts I'm putting behind spoilers because I make it obvious which ones you need to pay attention to and the rest are just there for reference. I am proving post by post how she's been doing this all game and making excuses when called out.

 

 

Shad I am admittedly less confident about but my suspicion on him is all about how he's treating Celeste and Wish. Shad said pretty early that Celeste is Town basically because Wish says so and he trusts Wish. I have no problem saying Wish is town...at this point. But that early in the game I don't feel like Shad should have had such a good read on Wish that he was not only trusting her but putting aside all personal judgments and allowing Wish's read on Celeste to override and become his own. It doesn't make sense to me why a Townie would do such a thing. There's also little interactions between the two that stand out but I know you don't want nitpicking right now. The gist of it is he was trusting Wish like he KNEW she was town (which he would if he was scum) and promoting her town read on Celeste because he know she's not town. 

 

Hope that makes sense.

WRT Celeste

I have no idea what the Rustlemania thing is about or why it would matter to you so much. I've seen you mention you've had a problem with Celeste bringing it up but not explaining it and I've seen her telling you she has.

I'll read your Celeste posts and ISO Celeste myself before I vote this phase. FWIW I can also vouch that she hasn't explained herself overly well in the two games I've played with her as Town.

 

FTR the only concerns I've had with what I've seen of Celeste's play so far is:

- she's possibly attempted to buddy me if she's Scum (but the instances I'm concerned about this can possibly be countered by the fact we're friends/we've played Town together twice before);

- her saying your gun questions were pointless WIFOM after using something slightly similar herself before;

- a slight shift in tone/confidence and her huff when she thought she was going down D1.

 

WRT SHAD

1. I said you didn't have to go to ISO extent but it should be quite clear that I'm after anything that stands out to you right now. If there have been interactions that bothered you, put them out there and explain your thoughts. Don't cop out with 'I noticed stuff but you won't care'.

 

2.

I can actually understand how that (Wish reads Celeste well/Wish is likely Town/there's no reason for Wish to lie about her read of Celeste... therefore Celeste is probably Town) thought process comes from Town at that point, because I was essentially going with that too.

 

a) Do you think Shad looks scummy elsewhere on his own? If so, why?

 

b) What's your own read on Wish and why don't you trust her ability to read Celeste?

 

IMO Shad looks the towniest player on the board, he is most likely to be Town.

[Nolder]

WRT Celeste

I have no idea what the Rustlemania thing is about or why it would matter to you so much.

It matters because she's been using it all game to cast negativity on me.

She keeps saying "I'm suspicious of him because he's reminding me of Rustlemania".

But whenever I ask her WHAT about this game reminds her of Rustlemania she will not explain.

It would be like me saying Cass I think you're scummy because wejfn4jftrnejfrnejfrnd4.

Don't ask what that means because I wont tell you anyway.

You don't see how that's not scummy itself?

 

I've seen you mention you've had a problem with Celeste bringing it up but not explaining it and I've seen her telling you she has.

Yep. She's lying.

 

I'll read your Celeste posts and ISO Celeste myself before I vote this phase. FWIW I can also vouch that she hasn't explained herself overly well in the two games I've played with her as Town.

Ok well that's fine but this seems a lot more like purposely misleading that not being able to articulate something.

You can see when I DO get answers they're contradictory. She goes from saying "I explained" to saying "You're right it's not much but I don't know how" basically. I am paraphrasing here but that's the gist of it and you can see yourself.

I may go back and collect all those posts into one post later.

 

 

I can actually understand how that (Wish reads Celeste well/Wish is likely Town/there's no reason for Wish to lie about her read of Celeste... therefore Celeste is probably Town) thought process comes from Town at that point, because I was essentially going with that too.

No no ok see that makes sense ok.

You can trust that Wish is sincere in her read.

BUT WHAT IF SHE'S WRONG?

That's the question that Shad obviously failed to ask and that's not townie.

I believe Shad himself said recently either in this game or another one that that kind of meta cuts both ways and while Wish may be able to read Celeste good it also means Celeste could know how to fake a meta for Wish and manipulate her.

 

a) Do you think Shad looks scummy elsewhere on his own? If so, why?

Yes but a lot of the other points are minor and I don't want to go digging for them right now.

The main thing is the Wish/Celeste thing.

 

b) What's your own read on Wish and why don't you trust her ability to read Celeste?

Wish has been cleared by POE as far as I'm concerned.

I never found her particularly scummy this game anyway even before she was POE cleared.

I have no real reason to trust her read. I mean besides that they're friends you know?

Wish basically just said she's townie because she looks scummy trust me.

I want something deeper than that and at this point even if Wish were to come up with something I don't think I'd buy it because of the way Celeste has acted towards me with the Rustlemania thing. I just don't see that coming from a townie.

 

IMO Shad looks the towniest player on the board, he is most likely to be Town.

Which is why I'm not wasting my time ISOing him before I need to.

Who knows maybe we'll lynch Celeste and the game will end idk.

I would be really annoyed if I spent all kinds of hours trying to come up with a convincing case on Shad and then the game ended when we lynched Celeste.

I don't know what's so hard for everyone to understand about that.

[Nolder]

p18

 

 

 

 

 

We can't just slack at this point. We have me/pral/nolder who are confusing the masses. If my flip is necessary to lynch the last two scum who are also confusing to others than do it. I don't want to be a hindrance anymore if it helps town win.

 

Good god, I wish people would stop saying this kind of stuff.

 

Then what do you have? I don't defend myself well, I'm in PoE, and it's getting close to end game. I'm just giving solutions.

 

NOTHING TO DO WITH ME

 

 

 

I'm also sorry I'm feeling annoyed, but I am. It's just how it is.

 

Focus on lynching wolves. Ignore these distractions.

Who I'm pretty certain are Pral/Nolder

 

NOTHING TO DO WITH RUSTLEMANIA

 

 

 

 

We can't just slack at this point. We have me/pral/nolder who are confusing the masses. If my flip is necessary to lynch the last two scum who are also confusing to others than do it. I don't want to be a hindrance anymore if it helps town win.

BADDD NO STOP. This is horrible. (lol Pizza too, #1401)

 

I think I also saw an appeal from Pizza for Wish to take a second look at Celeste. Lenny are you going to do that? You can probably read her better than the rest of us, taking away bias.

 

 

I'm also sorry I'm feeling annoyed, but I am. It's just how it is.

 

Focus on lynching wolves. Ignore these distractions.

Who I'm pretty certain are Pral/Nolder

 

Celeste, I actually think you're wrong here. Pral has been looking increasingly better, and Nolder is within town meta, unfortunately.

 

Then who? I'm just going with what I have seen and who I think has similar play styles to them on my home site. This is just confusing since they are players I have only played once or twice with and they point out to me more then you or pizza.

 

NOTHING TO DO WITH ME

 

 

Hey Laine or Shad can you link me to a Cass scum game?

NOTHING TO DO WITH ME

 

 

I'm here now. Going to read Cass scum game.

NOTHING TO DO WITH ME

 

 

I see an immediate difference between Cass already. She wasn't around trying to get her thoughts while being protected by her teammates that game. I think this is her town game.

NOTHING TO DO WITH ME

 

 

 

 

I see an immediate difference between Cass already. She wasn't around trying to get her thoughts while being protected by her teammates that game. I think this is her town game.

Take into account that was in May and she has Cory mentoring her? Do you have any recent scum games? I literally haven't played ANY game with her since that one

 

Any recent scum games of my own?

 

NOTHING TO DO WITH ME

 

 

 

 

 

 

I see an immediate difference between Cass already. She wasn't around trying to get her thoughts while being protected by her teammates that game. I think this is her town game.

Take into account that was in May and she has Cory mentoring her? Do you have any recent scum games? I literally haven't played ANY game with her since that one

 

Any recent scum games of my own?

 

Of Cass. Yours too if you have it and I'm up to looking. I know you linked them earlier probably but I'm in no mood to dig through ISOs for one link

 

I haven't seen her scum before. As for me I have some links to my scum games. 

 

http://www.mafiauniverse.com/threads/964-The-Office-Mafia-Mashup

 

http://personalitycafe.com/mafia/690722-mafia-xlvii-murder-mansion-town-win.html

 

 

NOTHING TO DO WITH ME

 

 

Notes from early game: Cass super excited. Seems weird compared to her current attitude. Penny seems more subdued, more calm, not in a hurry.

In what type of way?

 

NOTHING TO DO WITH ME

 

 

 

 

 

@Penny, are joke votes normal for you? Why'd you pick me?

 

They are unless I know nobody in the game. I had my suspensions since you role mafia here a lot that you might act differently to a simple joke vote. Take it seriously like some people do as mafia.

 

NOTHING TO DO WITH ME

 

 

 

Skimming while eating, can I get a WTL from everyone? What order would you lynch your bottom 3?

 

Cass

Celeste

Pral

Pral 

Nolder 

? <- Undecided

 

NOTHING TO DO WITH RUSTLEMANIA

 

 

[Nolder]

p19

 

 

 

 

Who really cares about PRs, we don't need them to figure this out, don't worry about those two

 

You want to lynch Nolder? Do you not think he's town anymore? What's changed your mind?

 

I could easily lynch Celeste before Cass today

Laine sometimes your posts make me wonder if your scum this game. You have been in the town zone for me with how you have reservations of Zander but i'm just not sure at times.

 

NOTHING TO DO WITH ME

 

[unvote]

[v]Nolder[/v]

 

I'm fine with either Pral or Nolder today.

NOTHING TO DO WITH RUSTLEMANIA

 

 

Nolder has been on my scumdar since his question that I replied umm on.

NOTHING TO DO WITH RUSTLEMANIA

 

 

 

 

 

Who really cares about PRs, we don't need them to figure this out, don't worry about those two

 

You want to lynch Nolder? Do you not think he's town anymore? What's changed your mind?

 

I could easily lynch Celeste before Cass today

Laine sometimes your posts make me wonder if your scum this game. You have been in the town zone for me with how you have reservations of Zander but i'm just not sure at times.

 

Lol ONLY my reservations with Zander?

 

I've been really speaking my mind this phase, probably whats got you off

 

These suspicions started this phase really but i'm not really sure about them.

 

NOTHING TO DO WITH ME

 

 

This day phase has been sort of calm in a way like we all know which direction we want to go in. It's gotten clearer in a way.

NOTHING TO DO WITH ME

 

 

I think Nolder's town.  I don't want to lynch him.

How?! I haven't seen anything town like from him. He's just so deflectish and weird that he is going to bring us down at some point if he isn't scum.

 

NOTHING TO DO WITH RUSTLEMANIA

 

I want to hit Nolder with a chair again...

NOTHING TO DO WITH RUSTLEMANIA

 

 

When I look at AoL and WE, I think "this game isn't anything like Nolder's scum game".

 

But when I look at NBC, he was 100 times more open there.

 

He did have a PR in NBC.  He had more responsibility to not get himself mislynched.  I need to look at his last town game before that one.

Let me link you to an off site one of his. 

 

http://www.vendetta-strada.net/showthread.php?tid=2011

 

A LINK TO RUSTLEMANIA. NO EXPLANATION HOW THAT GAME IS IN ANY WAY SIMILAR TO THIS ONE.

 

I really really really believe Cass to be town and see a stark difference with Middle Earth. She's trying and while she does get paranoia quickly her slank like play at this point happened as town too.

NOTHING TO DO WITH ME

 

 

If folks are wondering why I'm acting this way, I completely burnt myself out spending like 16 hours a day on this game in the first couple rounds.

 

I am bummed about Kaylee when I managed to correct myself, then talked myself into suspecting her again.

 

That's where I'm at.

 

This is the rare, non-leader, consensusy, bummed pizzaguy.

 

I don't show up much, but it does happen.

Completely understandable. I just don't get the Cass suspicion much.

 

NOTHING TO DO WITH ME

 

I was a little burnt out at the beginning of this phase because the Kaylee lynch left me confused but more certain about my Nolder/Pral suspicion.

NOTHING TO DO WITH RUSTLEMANIA

 

Ugh I'm trying to write a thought out clearly but it's not coming to me well.

NOTHING TO DO WITH ME

 

 

[alannalynn]

 

Nolder,

 

No need for ISO quality case right now/yet.

 

I want your bare, unadulterated gut feels/thoughts.

 

In bullet points, off the top of your head, what makes you think Shad and Celeste are Scum?

 

Go!

Honestly there's one thing about each of them that really bothers me.

I find other things when I look but these are the rocks that I have built the church of my suspicion upon.

 

Celeste and this Rustlemania thing.

I am highlighting as we speak how she's continually lied about explaining what she meant. She's been casting negativity and doubt on my game since very early in the thread and although I've tried to pin her down on it every time she either gave me a vague response or said she already explained it. This is just extremely scummy and something I can't ignore. I hope you'll have the time to look through the posts I'm putting behind spoilers because I make it obvious which ones you need to pay attention to and the rest are just there for reference. I am proving post by post how she's been doing this all game and making excuses when called out.

 

 

Shad I am admittedly less confident about but my suspicion on him is all about how he's treating Celeste and Wish. Shad said pretty early that Celeste is Town basically because Wish says so and he trusts Wish. I have no problem saying Wish is town...at this point. But that early in the game I don't feel like Shad should have had such a good read on Wish that he was not only trusting her but putting aside all personal judgments and allowing Wish's read on Celeste to override and become his own. It doesn't make sense to me why a Townie would do such a thing. There's also little interactions between the two that stand out but I know you don't want nitpicking right now. The gist of it is he was trusting Wish like he KNEW she was town (which he would if he was scum) and promoting her town read on Celeste because he know she's not town.

 

Hope that makes sense.

What's the difference between me adopting Wishs read of Celeste and Shad doing it?

[Nolder]

p20

 

 

 

 

Ugh. What is this defeatist attitude I sense from thread in general? :/ Scratch that. That's not scummy, since a lot of you are about all burned out. Penny, you're putting in the work that makes me confident in you. You said you wouldn't give up, right? Pizza, you don't have to be consensus leader. Just make sure to keep your village close. Lainey, you might be able to village lead instead of Pizza. Shad, vote someone without caring about what others think or worrying about people needing to sheep you.

Yes i'm not giving up nobody how hard it is for me to word what I want to say at the moment.

 

NOTHING TO DO WITH ME

 

 

 

Ugh. What is this defeatist attitude I sense from thread in general? :/ Scratch that. That's not scummy, since a lot of you are about all burned out. Penny, you're putting in the work that makes me confident in you. You said you wouldn't give up, right? Pizza, you don't have to be consensus leader. Just make sure to keep your village close. Lainey, you might be able to village lead instead of Pizza. Shad, vote someone without caring about what others think or worrying about people needing to sheep you.

Yes i'm not giving up nobody how hard it is for me to word what I want to say at the moment.

 

no matter

 

NOTHING TO DO WITH ME

 

What i'm trying to say is at this point with us all burnt out from D2 that the wolfs will be able to assure a mislynch if we all don't come together for the sake of town unity. Basically a pep talk similar to wish. We need to agree on someone which I know we can do, the stronger the unity the harder it will be for the mafia to mislynch a townie.

NOTHING TO DO WITH ME

 

My vote stays on Nolder because idk when I will check thread next.

NOTHING TO DO WITH RUSTLEMANIA

 

Ok I may be around for day end if I don't go back to sleep. Willing to switch back to Pral too.

NOTHING TO DO WITH ME

 

 

Pralaya, you keep suggesting Celeste is scum and then you don't vote for her. Why?

i haven't noticed that

 

NOTHING TO DO WITH ME

 

 

[unvote]

[v]Pralaya[/v]

NOTHING TO DO WITH ME

 

 

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/96393-basicstandard-warcraft-war-of-the-ancients-mafia-day-three/?view=findpost&p=3590721

 

Here on D2 you have her in your scum list again. No reason given why you moved her back there.

 

Can you tell me why she moved back there?

 

Because they were the only one who I did not have any reasons to clear as town. Everyone else I had some reasoning or the other.

 

What reasons?

 

NOTHING TO DO WITH ME

 

 

You can talk about her, but I'm already willing to vote her. Just did :P My reasons are the strange tone shift from the beginning of the game to now, the strange post that Zander made that called her paranoid, her own acknowledgment of her paranoia, the focus on small details that are rather irrelevant, keeping her town read of Zander even after Pizza/Shad built an incriminating case on him, and her WTL list containing Celeste, even after she said she trusted my read and her gut on Celeste.

I don't see the tone shift at all.

 

NOTHING TO DO WITH ME

 

 

The tone shift- Cass starts off as excited, buddying, fluffing, joking, even as she is focusing on details and acting paranoid, as she said. A lot of her allegations are teasing -- are you scum? If you are, I'll catch you! But I'm not going to vote you yet -- but they don't really mean anything because she never follows through. On day 1, the only serious accusations she had were Csarmi and Pralaya, and she backed off on everyone else. On day 2, after the Zander flip, she starts to act confused and then simultaneously starts to tinfoil on those originally in her town core. Her lighthearted attitude all about drops, and she is very hesitant to vote Kaylee. At this point, I'm pretty sure all of us were confused, however, at least for me, I was willing to vote Kaylee, regardless of how it looked for me. Pretty sure Pizza also did that because he cared not about what it would look like if he were wrong. Cass hedges on Kaylee and is not willing to vote, withholding her vote still at the eod. The lack of decision making and willing to stick it out even if she was wrong between first and second day Cass bothers me a lot.

Hmm. Did you see any tone shift in Visors game from Cass?

 

NOTHING TO DO WITH ME

 

Anyways I'm feeling sleepy after coming from the airport. Au revior for now.

NOTHING TO DO WITH ME

 

Wish, Lainey, and anybody else concerned about Cass. I think she is telling the truth in her recent posts. I see the struggling and paranoid tone from her as we reach the end game. She was lynched for similar reasons in her last town game. In middle earth it wasn't quite the same fight spirit in her. Reconsider Cass is all I'm asking.

NOTHING TO DO WITH ME

 

I am ready for this phase to end really. Nolder and Pralaya have been given enough time really. They just seem to be flailing to me.

NOTHING TO DO WITH RUSTLEMANIA

 

Ok this sucks. *puts Pral on the idfk how to read list* -.- I just can't shake off the Nolder suspicion really.

NOTHING TO DO WITH RUSTLEMANIA

 

Eeerr i'm kind of mini panicking right now. A bit burnt out but I still want to lynch Nolder even though I was wrong about Pralaya.

NOTHING TO DO WITH RUSTLEMANIA

 

[v]Nolder[/v]

NOTHING TO DO WITH RUSTLEMANIA

 

Shad why do you always backtrack with Nolder?

NOTHING TO DO WITH RUSTLEMANIA

 

Honestly i'm burnt out and it feels like this has gone on for a month.

NOTHING TO DO WITH RUSTLEMANIA

 

 

[Nolder]

 

 

Nolder,

 

No need for ISO quality case right now/yet.

 

I want your bare, unadulterated gut feels/thoughts.

 

In bullet points, off the top of your head, what makes you think Shad and Celeste are Scum?

 

Go!

Honestly there's one thing about each of them that really bothers me.

I find other things when I look but these are the rocks that I have built the church of my suspicion upon.

 

Celeste and this Rustlemania thing.

I am highlighting as we speak how she's continually lied about explaining what she meant. She's been casting negativity and doubt on my game since very early in the thread and although I've tried to pin her down on it every time she either gave me a vague response or said she already explained it. This is just extremely scummy and something I can't ignore. I hope you'll have the time to look through the posts I'm putting behind spoilers because I make it obvious which ones you need to pay attention to and the rest are just there for reference. I am proving post by post how she's been doing this all game and making excuses when called out.

 

 

Shad I am admittedly less confident about but my suspicion on him is all about how he's treating Celeste and Wish. Shad said pretty early that Celeste is Town basically because Wish says so and he trusts Wish. I have no problem saying Wish is town...at this point. But that early in the game I don't feel like Shad should have had such a good read on Wish that he was not only trusting her but putting aside all personal judgments and allowing Wish's read on Celeste to override and become his own. It doesn't make sense to me why a Townie would do such a thing. There's also little interactions between the two that stand out but I know you don't want nitpicking right now. The gist of it is he was trusting Wish like he KNEW she was town (which he would if he was scum) and promoting her town read on Celeste because he know she's not town.

 

Hope that makes sense.

 

What's the difference between me adopting Wishs read of Celeste and Shad doing it?

 

Did you do it like 20 pages into the game?

[alannalynn]

Probably

[alannalynn]

Idk I'm doing work like things right now And Probably shouldn't be on my phone

[Cass]

 

 

1.You didn't hunt Scum/give opinions ITT early game;

Well that's not actually true.You can see from my notes I was paying very close attention and scum hunting.I don't like giving reads early in the game and I was especially closed off this game because I thought you were scum early on and I didn't want to tip you off that I thought that so you wouldn't change your behavior.Since I gave up on all that I've been as open as any other game.

2. There was a LOT of fluff and the gun question thing was plain weird. Felt to me like cover/stalling to avoid real commitments ITT;

Well I tend to post a lot in general and with that comes fluff.You could say the same for Cory and Xander.Without the banter it sucks a lot of the fun out of the game.Granted there's times when it needs to be toned down and I think I balance it for the most part but I'm not going to apologize for the way I have fun playing a game.As for the gun thing.It helped me derive early reads.A lot of people have their own techniques.This was something new I tried and I liked the results.Probably wont do it again any time soon but it got reactions didn't it?

3. You said later that you were 'hunting' me during that time buta) the things you gave me early minuses for were nuances in my behaviour and my game approach, which were questioned by others and I believe explained ITT by that point.

Maybe so. And maybe some of those things contributed to me eventually deciding you were town after all.

You didn't actually seem interested in trying to figure me out.

There was a very long stretch of the game where I was waiting to see what you'd say and do next...and you never showed up.You had a pretty long absence and even when you come around a lot of the time it's not for very long.Kind of hard to judge someone in those cases you know?

Even said 'I just think she hasn't done enough to be scummy yet' or something, which suggests you're maybe more interested in pushing me/a case than actually really trying to figure me out;

It has to do with how I scumhunt.The very core of what I do is basically gut reads most of the time.I get either a good or bad feeling based on certain things and then I try to justify those feelings to both myself and to the rest of the game.If I'm not able to justify it most of the time I'll either dismiss it or not bring it up to others but it's how I operate.In your case I felt off about you but yeah like I said at the time you hadn't really done enough to justify my suspicions but I was in a situation where I had to explain myself to the town because they'd been waiting for a case I said was coming.Normally this is something I would have just dropped quietly but I set expectations and put myself into a bind, you see?

and b) you never pressed me harder/never took the opportunity to really interact when you put your thoughts into the open. You asked me if you were crazy, I answered I could maybe see where you were coming from and asked you what you wanted to discuss/needed to know and you never came back to me after that. Why?

By that time my interest in your case was going away fast and I was occupied with other things.There was a point where it was really hard to keep up with this game although I did manage it. Barely.

4. I didn't like the wording that you used with your vote on Pral early in the game. It didn't feel like you were voting him because you thought he was Scum, it felt like you were trying to justify your position on the train. I didn't like the way you avoided answering me when I questioned you/asked you for explanation/elaboration on your reasons why you were voting there;

Don't know what you're talking about here.I don't recall being on Prals train.Are you talking about when I said we're almost at 50 pages keep up or die?If so that had nothing to do with positioning I was trying to either encourage him or encourage a train.Either way would have satisfied me at the time.I don't know what you mean by avoiding you.If it's something I didn't answer at all I probably missed it.If it's something I did answer but you didn't like the answer can you quote it please?

5. In ISO, your interactions with Zander stand out. You two are mutually not suspicious of each other and you initially only interact/answer/question him wrt reads;

Xander has extremely high charisma.I said this in a game recently but I can't really help but get sucked into the way Xander posts about hunting the wolves and whatnot.I don't think there's been a game I've played with Xander yet where I more than briefly sussed him as wolf.Why Xander wasn't suspicious of me is easy.He was scum who knew I was town.I was someone he was going to pocket probably.

6. You highlight/introduce a 'I don't think there's a Zander-Csarmi scum link' line of thought;

I did? I don't remember this.

7. You held back on the Csarmi lynch. To me, it was pretty obviously not his Town game and your 'confusion'/lack of understanding of the case wrt that felt false;

This I did. I was wrong about Csarmi.It was mostly a gut read.Which is all I had. You say it was pretty obviously not his town game but newsflash this was probably the first game I've played with Csarmi in like a year and a half maybe. I don't know what his town game looks like.

7. You now say Celeste and Shad are Scum, but don't give reasons or elaborate your thoughts.

Not true.I've given reasons throughout this entire game.Celeste more than Shad but Shad got his fair share early on as well.I said I didn't want to waste my time on a Shad ISO when it wont matter and I still don't and I still wont.If and when Celeste is lynched and Shad and I are both alive and the game isn't over then and only then will I ISO and go into detail with him.Otherwise I'm not wasting my damn time.

You focus instead on the idea that there would be no point in doing so, which is weird. If you think they're Scummy and you're Town and nobody else is getting it, it's your job to try and be clear and say why .

You're right that I could try to persuade people with the way I'm thinking on Shad.But I don't feel like that's necessary.If I die they know I was suspicious of Shad and that it was an honest suspicion.That should be enough to go on.I'm not some super great mafia player that reads between the lines.Anything I see while reading someones post is easily something anyone else can see if they take the time to look.

IMO there's more Scum equity/motive in the way you've been putting them up as options but not locking your 'read/lean' in with your thought process/reasons why.

Ok. Well thanks for addressing that for me at least.I think you're letting the fact that I don't want to ISO Shad right now as well as a few left over mistakes from the early game really color your read on me. Especially as it relates to Celeste whom I've been clear as day about and held nothing back.I hope through this discussion you'll come to reconsider.If you have any other concerns or questions for me let me know.

As for how you look in comparison to others, like Celeste, that's where I'm torn. I've been leaning them more-likely Town and thus haven't focused enough on them yet to know.

That comes from you bouncing in and out of the thread.Not trying to be critical but I think you've had to sacrifice some depth in your reads in order to keep up.Or at least that's what I'd guess is going on.

Not all bad IMO. Can't do all the replies justice/grab quotes etc on mobile with baby in lap right now but will make it a priority when I sit down at home.

 

For now:

How did your gun question help you make reads?

 

Why would it have mattered if I'd known you were questioning my behaviour? Others had already pushed me for the things you mentioned, I don't see why you thought you had to observe me on the quiet/why your involvement/elaboration might have caused me to change.

 

And also:

- By 'fluff' I don't mean banter/fun - I mean excuses/posting for the sake of posting/checking in but without giving content on anything at all

 

- The long stretch where I didn't post ITT was explained - mentor excercise, thorough re-read of 50 pages, I gave warning and results. If you found my absence strange/scummy you never pushed/questioned me for it at the time even though you posted after then that you were still thinking I was scum.

[Nolder]

1) It was just a reaction test. No different than voting someone for a bogus reason and seeing how everyone reacts. Some people will follow it and vote that person, some will call it out as dumb, some will vote you, etc. It's all different but it all sets a tone for how they're going to play you know?

 

2) Well if you WERE scum and you knew someone was on to you I assume you'd be more careful not to act scummy lol.

 

3) Oh I see. Well yeah I did have some trouble keeping up for awhile but I managed.

 

4) I didn't realize the absence was expected. I must have missed that. You can see when I name you as my top scum suspect I didn't expect you to be MIA so long.

[Cass]

Meh, I was expecting Laine to come back and vote, not the hammer from Cass.

And I was thinking you were in bed and my vote on Nolder would be pointless/there wouldn't be enough people around to switch enough votes from Pral to Nolder in an hour.

 

I still think Pral needed to be resolved, but why did you vote Pral over Nolder if you were agreeing with him on several points, and why'd you specifically leave it up to Laine? Were you expecting the end result to be any different?

[Nolder]

p21

 

 

 

I think there's 3

 

This is a 13 player game, probably 3, I dont' see why there would be 4

So we have had 2 Mafia goon flips, 2 Vanilla Towns, a 1 shot Vig, Doctor, and a Cop. 13 players and 3 mafia hrrmm I can't see it much.

 

NOTHING TO DO WITH ME

 

 

 

 

 

I think there's 3

 

This is a 13 player game, probably 3, I dont' see why there would be 4

So we have had 2 Mafia goon flips, 2 Vanilla Towns, a 1 shot Vig, Doctor, and a Cop. 13 players and 3 mafia hrrmm I can't see it much.

 

 

Can't see only 3 scum or can't see 4?

 

Can't see just 3 because the basic setups i'm used to have 3p at some point or 4 mafia in this case.

 

NOTHING TO DO WITH ME

 

 

How about it doesn't matter and we should just find scum and lynch them?

Ok but at this point i'm getting paranoid about mislynching but I also believe my suspicion against Nolder more than I did Pral. If i'm wrong than I will just solve this out again. I know i'm scummy and I know it's getting close to the end. Some games are just harder than others.

 

NOTHING TO DO WITH RUSTLEMANIA

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think there's 3

 

This is a 13 player game, probably 3, I dont' see why there would be 4

So we have had 2 Mafia goon flips, 2 Vanilla Towns, a 1 shot Vig, Doctor, and a Cop. 13 players and 3 mafia hrrmm I can't see it much.

 

 

Can't see only 3 scum or can't see 4?

 

Can't see just 3 because the basic setups i'm used to have 3p at some point or 4 mafia in this case.

 

 

hmm...

 

Cop vs 3 goons is common.

My first game here was cop and doc vs GF and 2 goons.

A town vig is relatively neutral.

The two 13ers I've played with 4 goons had major off-sets (town had a night kill in one, town had cop doc masons and an innocent child in the other).

 

3 scum with an RB or GF is more likely in my limited experience.  Dunno about 3p, never saw one in a basic/standard game yet.

 

Argh this is just making me more paranoid. Your indecisiveness on Nolder though is driving me a bit bonkers.

 

NOTHING ABOUT RUSTLEMANIA

 

 

Doesn't anybody but me feel the least bit perturbed by Celeste comparing me to my Rustlemania game 4-7 times and never explaining what she meant and lying that she did?

 

Just me huh? Ok...

I DID EXPLAIN OK. MAYBE NOT TO GREAT DETAIL BUT I DID EXPLAIN. You don't settle well with me at all.

 

SAYING SHE EXPLAINED. INSTEAD OF EXPLAINING AGAIN OR QUOTING IT SHE'D RATHER ARGUE ABOUT EXPLAINING.

 

Nolder, you have to get that I started mafia on a forum that figures out scum from the mindset of the said role they play. My strong point isn't logical evidence really. Your suspicion seems on my play style more than anything I have done.

NOTHING TO DO WITH RUSTLEMANIA

 

 

 

Nolder, you have to get that I started mafia on a forum that figures out scum from the mindset of the said role they play. My strong point isn't logical evidence really. Your suspicion seems on my play style more than anything I have done.

That's cool and all. I've always kind of wanted to roleplay with my role but I never felt comfortable doing it aside from maybe some hints and jokes in certain games.

But that's completely off the topic we were discussing which is whether you explained or not.

You didn't and I am going to show that post by post to everyone.

 

I did and you refuse to see it Nolder. I'm not a great explainer and told this while I was explaining it. You refuse to see it. You refuse to actually think and ponder over my posts and just see the scummy surface of it, of that post in general. So tell me if I flip town than who will be your scum reads?

 

 

AGAIN INSTEAD OF EXPLAINING AGAIN OR QUOTING IT SHE'D RATHER ARGUE, SAYING IT'S MY FAULT BECAUSE I REFUSE TO SEE IT. SEE WHAT? THERE HAS BEEN NOTHING TO SEE EXCEPT MAYBE A VAGUE REFERENCE TO RAZEN ONCE. AGAIN WITH NO EXPLANATION.

 

 

[Nolder]

p22

 

9/9

 

the end

 

 

 

 

I will try to study Wish the way I did Cass Celeste and Nolder.  It's not going to happen tonight.  I needed a breather and I have too much booze in me to be productive at this point.

 

I think Nolder is scummy town.  So did Lenlo and Pral, and they've both played with him a good bit.  I'm not AoL Nynaeve levels of confidence here and I admit I could be wrong, but I think he's town.  If you want to lynch him, at least try to study his past games a bit and draw an informed conclusion, because Nolder can be pretty scummy as town.  Doesn't make him town here.  But we've invested too much into this game to just yolo lynch him.

 

Celeste appears to be a player who can be scummy as town as well.  I have zero experience with her beyond TUS where I didn't pay one bit of attention to her posts.  I read her two scum games on this site and I read her town game in Rustlemania.  I think she was more proactive in pushing her reads in Rustlemania than she has been here, but she's definitely been more analytic than in TUS or Ragnarok.  (iirc she never advanced a case beyond "gut feels" in either.)  The margin between her scum and town games is something akin to Hallia, and if I'm hedging on town, the understanding you gain from ISOing other games does not match up to actually playing with someone.  I would say from my limited perspective that she is closer to her town game than her scum game, but it's only a slight lean.

 

Cass played a fantastic D1 as either alignment.  If she's a wolf, she's a damn good one.  She's been very consistent, in my opinion, and how she claims her reads evolved mostly match up to what she actually said as the game progressed.  In a 225 page game, no one is going to be 100% consistent, and her inconsistencies are very slight.  Except for her treatment of Zander at the beginning, which I really struggle to swallow in light of her actual experience with him.  When I found the Frozen DT quote in particular, my initial feeling was that I'd fully outed her, but as time passes and no one else seems to find that observation significant, I wonder if she is simply town guilty of critically forgetting some stuff that happened a few months ago regarding a player that happened to rand wolf.  I dunno.  The connection with Zander is hard for me to get over; but she's played an overall pretty townie game.  She did make a few observations that were o_O hard to swallow, such as calling out Celeste for saying "umm" and calling out Pizza for posting a helpful note-taking tool.  I have never played with Cass before or observed any of her games live.  Her game here doesn't look like any of her previous DM ones, town or scum, and there's both a half-year gap and a Cory mentor separating them.  People who have played with her more recently (Celeste, Wish) ought to state or re-state their opinions on whether the forgetfulness and really obscure call-outs jive with her town game.

 

wish-tree's D1 did not look like her scum games in Rag and TUS.  She bounced around and buddied people and didn't really do much to progress the game in those.  I felt like she was significantly more involved in relevant matters here as of half-way through D1.  But I haven't really studied her since then beyond reading her posts as I follow along.  She is the player I am least informed on by far, and my job (maybe my only job) today is to fix that.  The fact that Zander hit her hard means absolutely nothing about her alignment unless she's Godfather, and even then it might mean nothing.  Measure her by her own actions, not by how outed scum treated her.

 

Laine is town.  Don't even waste your time looking at her.  Her previous scum games were night and day different from the game she has had here.

I like this post from you Shad, What thoughts have it lead you too for this day phase?

 

NOTHING TO DO WITH ME

 

 

 

 

 

Shad why do you always backtrack with Nolder?

I first played with Nolder in Age of Legends. He was scum, and I was town. I read him town all game iirc. He gave intelligent answers to all of my questions and seemed to be amicably attempting to solve the game. He was cooperative.  He got confused sometimes but you could always guide him back on track.  He happened to be on the wrong side of history on a lot of lynches.

 

My next game with Nolder was Nightmare Before Christmas.  We were both town.  He fought with people a lot.  He focused on reasons I found strange for his top scum reads, and he was highly reluctant to let go.  His top two scum were the two people I felt were the most obvious towns in the game.  (One of them was, the other turned out to be 3p.)  Any time he was questioned, he got excessively defensive and even accused players he was explicitly town reading of "intentionally" misrepping him and distorting the situation.  He refused to answer people's questions when he felt slighted.  He forgot things that I didn't think anyone should realistically forget.  (Zander screamed for Tab's head half of D1, hounding everyone to vote her, but her lynch didn't go through.  Zander got NK'd, and Nolder's first post D2 was "Didn't see that coming.  Was there anyone besides myself Xander felt strong about being scum?")  I wanted to lynch him all game, but his behavior was so strikingly different from Age of Legends that I held off, and he lived to see end game.

 

My third game with Nolder was World's End.  We were scum together.  I didn't pay one lick of attention to what he was posting, but from my vague memory and recent ISO it comes off very similar to AoL.

 

In short; this looks more similar to his town game.

 

On the other hand: I'm basing all of this on only a 3 game sample for a guy that has played 100+ games, and as his scum mate two weeks ago I gave him some advice on the sort of behavior that would fool me personally.  This latter bit is probably silly--I don't think Nolder is going to switch up his scum game all of a sudden just to fool me.  But I can't help feeling nervous about it anyway, and I don't know that he isn't capable of his current game as scum just because he didn't do it in my two examples, and I scum read him as v/v for pretty good reasons that are hard to just block out of my mind when I see them again.  And his reasons for not sharing information in NBC were because he felt everyone was out to get him, not because he felt people wouldn't care.  That part is different and throwing me off.

 

So I'm waffling hard and my gut screams scum but my head says he's probably town.

 

Maybe you should trust your gut some more if you don't trust it all that often.

 

NOTHING TO DO WITH RUSTLEMANIA

 

 

 

 

 

I like this post from you Shad, What thoughts have it lead you too for this day phase?

Could you reword that? I don't really understand the question.

 

What are your reads this day phase based on your findings in that post?

 

NOTHING TO DO WITH ME

 

 

 

 

Maybe you should trust your gut some more if you don't trust it all that often.

Not my approach to life in general.

 

What if it makes a world of a difference this game?

 

NOTHING TO DO WITH ME

 

 

*sigh* I don't see why you are even quoting things if it says NOTHING TO DO WITH ME in all quotes. Actually have substance to your push of me or just forget because it isn't helping your case.

NOTHING TO DO WITH RUSTLEMANIA

 

 

 

Sleeping now too.

NOTHING TO DO WITH ME

 

 

[Nolder]

oooooooooooOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHYEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Nolder]

Ok no thumbnail just a link

 

NSFW music

[Nolder]

Oh come on thumbnails....

 

Mods I have to edit that or I'll get in trouble with Verbal lol.

 

modkill me if you have to :P

[Nolder]

Whew seriously though I haven't spent that much time and effort on a single take down since Des quit mafia.

 

Ok so everything is all there if you want to check.

Celeste never explained to me wtf she's talking about with regards to Rustlemania and I went through every single post of hers to check and prove it.

If I have time later today/tonight I'll try to gather all her posts about it into one post so you can see them all side by side.

[Cass]

1) It was just a reaction test. No different than voting someone for a bogus reason and seeing how everyone reacts. Some people will follow it and vote that person, some will call it out as dumb, some will vote you, etc. It's all different but it all sets a tone for how they're going to play you know? 2) Well if you WERE scum and you knew someone was on to you I assume you'd be more careful not to act scummy lol.3) Oh I see. Well yeah I did have some trouble keeping up for awhile but I managed.4) I didn't realize the absence was expected. I must have missed that. You can see when I name you as my top scum suspect I didn't expect you to be MIA so long.

 

When I'm scum, I'm careful all along lol

If you found those things scummy and you still weren't aware the 'disappearance' was expected, why'd you drop the case?

 

FTR I think voting an actual player for a bogus reason and seeing how everyone reacts and making up a hypothetical unrelated to the game are very different types of reaction tests. How much do you trust the results?

[Cass]

Whew seriously though I haven't spent that much time and effort on a single take down since Des quit mafia.

 

Ok so everything is all there if you want to check.

Celeste never explained to me wtf she's talking about with regards to Rustlemania and I went through every single post of hers to check and prove it.

If I have time later today/tonight I'll try to gather all her posts about it into one post so you can see them all side by side.

Wouldn't the bold have been the most effective way to put forward your point?

 

Did you find anything else in her ISO that bothers you/makes you think she's scum?

[Cass]

Ok the baby is now asleep!

 

I'm off to bed. Not sure how much mobile reception will be available cross-country tomorrow. Will keep up as much as I can in my not-drive times.

[Nolder]

 

1) It was just a reaction test. No different than voting someone for a bogus reason and seeing how everyone reacts. Some people will follow it and vote that person, some will call it out as dumb, some will vote you, etc. It's all different but it all sets a tone for how they're going to play you know? 2) Well if you WERE scum and you knew someone was on to you I assume you'd be more careful not to act scummy lol.3) Oh I see. Well yeah I did have some trouble keeping up for awhile but I managed.4) I didn't realize the absence was expected. I must have missed that. You can see when I name you as my top scum suspect I didn't expect you to be MIA so long.

 

When I'm scum, I'm careful all along lol

If you found those things scummy and you still weren't aware the 'disappearance' was expected, why'd you drop the case?

 

FTR I think voting an actual player for a bogus reason and seeing how everyone reacts and making up a hypothetical unrelated to the game are very different types of reaction tests. How much do you trust the results?

 

Lack of justification like I said. Whether it was expected or not I just didn't have the evidence to move forward.

And by that time I was focusing more on Celeste and Shad.

 

Not overly much.

I just think it's a good starting point to get things moving.

You never know what you'll find if you don't look you know?