World's End Mafia - town wins comprehensively

[Guest]

 

 

Hi guys. We're on the way to fishing. Reading as far as I can.

Have a fun trip

Thanks sooh

[Shad_]

 

I'm sorry if I haven't been as involved in this game as you've all grown to expect of me. I can't do it all the time. But I want to do it all the time, and I create opportunities when I can.

 

When your top suspect is the most long-winded player in the game of mafia, presenting a case isn't particularly easy.

 

But I ISO'd Pizza up to his unvote. It was as far as I could get. I am still voting him and have no intention of moving unless some miracle transpired after I left off and I can spare another large block of undistracted time to digest it.

 

Have fun:

 

So you feel confident here that your vote is good without even finishing reading Pizza fully?  In lieu of his Town flip this doesnt look so good imo

 

Wow, did you even read the actual content of my posts on him? He was pretty intensely scummy, and I still don't get how he's town.

[Shad_]

I mean seriously, I'm sorry I helped lynch a player who flipped town but I don't regret it.   I still feel he was the scummiest option by a large margin.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I love that even through all that, this entire 121 page thread, there are still people that think I ever seriously suggested we lynch a town player on purpose. Did 90% of that post fly over everyones head or was I just that freaking unclear?

 

"Would we ever want to lynch a towny to ensure a majority in the NK selection?"

 

Your exact words, btw.

 

It's phrased as a question, but you're presenting it as an option.

[Guest]

I just realized that I haven't tried the PoE tactic. I've been trying to find scum based on wolfy posts. That's why I have dice in there, Tina for the last while, and Sooh.

 

By PoE, my list will differ a bit. I'm going to go through my notes and I'll post it here.

 

 

 

I can't seem to put the game down.

 

[Askthepizzaguy]

I'm going to suggest making sure each person who isn't sorry they lynched me is dead before end of game.

 

Sorry not sorry.

[Lenlo]

 

I love that even through all that, this entire 121 page thread, there are still people that think I ever seriously suggested we lynch a town player on purpose. Did 90% of that post fly over everyones head or was I just that freaking unclear?

 

"Would we ever want to lynch a towny to ensure a majority in the NK selection?"

 

Your exact words, btw.

 

It's phrased as a question, but you're presenting it as an option.

 

Yeah, and then I never brought it up as a serious suggestion ever again. Because it wasnt the main thing I was arguing at the time, it was a side question. The fact that everyone associates that with double VC idea is stupid and they arnt actually reading.

[Guest]

To Sooh,

 

 

 

 

 

So here's one of the problems I am having with Besie.

 

Yes, her tone is fine. We know already she's capable of faking tone as a wolf, but still, her tone is fine. Understood. She's got an acerbic little edge to her posts, she has fight and vigor and when she gets pushed around she can get sort of prickly.

 

So the question for me on evaluation becomes is her tone genuine? Does her edge exists because she's a frustrated villager who is responding to baseless arguments against her, or is she simply playing the role of "offended villager"?

 

There's a little trick that the great CPHoyaids taught me that I sometimes go through when I evaluate tone. It's called the "well, is it real test?"

 

Take for example the post Besie made at BFG that BFG mentioned earlier:

 

 

 

 

@ BFG

 

I dislike that you say I go with the flow.

 

I'm not going with the flow. I'm making my own deductions from my own ways of reasoning. The only way I'm going with the flow is in reading, understanding and agreeing with several people's arguments. Including you. Do you WANT me to make a very random list? My list differs conciderably from Pizza's. Many people are at different alignments when compared to Cory and Zander's, with the main being Shad, I believe. And you just went and moved Shad to null-town, so I don't see how that's a problem. The only other thing I did was to move Len quite a bit, and you could possibly have seen that as going with the flow. It was not. It was my thoughts about things he said early game. And once again, no. I'm not referring to the "secret info" that Cory saw and Zander apparently sees too. It's my own, and I actually added even more to Len's villa after his argument with Pizza, and Pizza's reasoning.

If you want to say that I'm sheeping (cause that's what go with the flow is!) then at least give proper examples. I'm NOT sheeping my top scum read. I'm not even sheeping my top town reads, except on Tina. Want me to stop going with the flow? Then I refuse to vote someone who I have no experience with and can see no reason for their negative alignment.

Read this post carefully and note the attitude. There is visible frustration here. Closed sentences "I'm not [etc.], It was not [etc.]" - accusatory glances "You just went and..." that posit a comparison for a justification of behavior. "Then I refuse..."; you get it, you can read.

 

This is the post of someone a little ticked off and that ticked-offedness coming through in their posting style.

 

This post was made at 6:08.

 

Besie posted again three minutes later:

 

 

 

And them my last catchup post.

 

 

 

 

id vote shad not pizza

Im fine with Shad but why not Pizza DIce?

cause i think he is town and because half the arguments for lynching him seems to be "but hes hard to read! lets play safe" not a fan

Fair enough

 

But I don't play safe I PLAY TO WIN THE GAME!!!

 

 

And in order to do that I have to find 3 wolves. I think theres more reasons to vote Pizza then what your referring to. But I'm happy to roll Shad or less happily roll Tina cause flips will make solving this much easier for us.

Mmmm.

 

 

Ugh.

 

Conflicted.

Noooooo! WRONG GIF! Zander!

 

THE BOULDER IS CONFLICTED!

 

I'm not.

I want to vote Pizza.

For reasons already given. He's been my top scum for a while, and I feel more confident voting him as scum than any else atm. Call it POE, if you must.

 

 

no one can actually EXPLAIN zander...

Im pretty easy to figure out....like on my gravestone it will say these 6 things:

 

He Loved God

He Loved his Children

He Loved Bacon

He Loved Beer

He Loved To Town

And by God He Lunched a Hell of A lot of Wolves.

 

Now Zander while he is going to sleep, tell meeeee!

Curiosity killed the cat.

 

 

 

 

id vote shad not pizza

Im fine with Shad but why not Pizza DIce?

cause i think he is town and because half the arguments for lynching him seems to be "but hes hard to read! lets play safe" not a fan

Dice so towny!

Yeah I don't see how this makes him towny AT ALL. At all. There's so many other factors that contribute to Pizza being the most scummy.

 

Are you, Sooh, and Dice, w/w?

 

 

 

I'm voting Pizza. I have no problem switching that to Sooh or Dice. Sooh more so than Dice. Can't shake my distrust of them.

 

I don't like that lynching Pizza is a definite lynch on Shad. I still have not done the iso, though. I'll do that now that I've caught up. I'm trusting my top town reads again, that have said that shad is scummy. And I don't like that. I want my own opinions.

 

 

 

And I just edited this post so that I didn't vote Pizza because 1) it'll put him at -1 and 2) because I want to hear what BFG says first.

In here, she is joking, confident, ready to give opinions.

 

CPHoya posited something like the following: "You can tell when somebody is faking tone when there is no linear consistency to it. If someone who is specifically using tonal elements of their play to attack or defend and then act completely differently about something else, it's very likely that their attack / defense was in-genuine, as it was concealed to a single event and did not effect them in any real or noticeable way."

 

So if we're considering Besie a villager because of tonal elements of her game, here's my challenge.

 

I don't think Besie genuinely gets flustered about BFG's criticism of her play during the game and then, with absolutely zero forward consideration of what she just posted, jokingly finishes her catch-up like literally nothing happened. There's a mood shift that only exists if you look for it, and the only real GUESS I can make at why the mood switches so quickly is that the original "snarling defense" was an act meant to deceive and not genuine.

 

And I don't know what motive Besie has to deceive BFG as a villager, but I can think otherwise.

 

Just a snapshot of my brain and the things I consider for all of you to think about.

I had a thought.

 

I think the first part of this sounds more genuine to me because it really is. Besie, regardless of alignment knew she didn't post a consensus list, and her frustration when thinking she was accused of doing that was real.

 

Her second post is more planned. Took longer to construct. From the beginning of it she sets it up as a catch up post, which makes me think that she had it almost ready to go for a long time and was going to post it sooner, but had to address what she thought BFG said first.

 

I'm still not sure it's because she's a wolf, but I can also not confidently say that I have a town read on her. Like I said before, her real time interaction seems more genuine, less reaching and just more *her* than her catch ups.

 

 

*cough* This is exactly right. ... did you read my mind?

[Guest]

I've caught up. Catchup post:

 

I've stared at this for 10 minutes and still love it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

for me its the attitude. Shes saying what she thinks, isnt backing down. see her little go with pizza. Theres been a couple of things where shes been uncertain but on the whole I think she is town. And when she speaks i hear BESIE. she sounds pretty normal.

 

Granted Ive played one game but I am basing that tone read off skype convos and the Band forum

I think this might be Cass in HoC all over again.

 

Her attitude and indignation and willingness to give people grief is something that was a crux element of her wolf game in Diablo and probably got her several town reads before she got peeked and Yates did her in.

 

I can see a lot of worlds where this game is a development of her wolf game.

 

The more I go through it she just seems... IDK, too composed? Too confident in the reads she is making? Most of her interactions with me have been coy little supplements of my posts and no challenge whatsoever. Like I said, she's either a natural or something else entirely.

 

 

Remember this would be her first game as a villager ever.

That is correct. 

 

@Cory

 

 

 

 

I FOUND IT AND I EDITED IT:

 

 

 

Like seriously if I die I think almost all the potential pressure on Besie will stop and I find that bothersome. Reminds me of when I tried to lynch Err in the WITD game before I got NKed and people kept clearing him for meh reasons until the game became borderline ~locked and people were forced to lynch him, or when I tried to lynch Cass in the HoC game and nobody bit until after she killed me.

 

Besie I am really sorry if I am misreading you but reading through you're firmly in my PoE and if worse comes to worse I have at least five players I think are more villagery than you with 11 alive.

 

So everyone: if you get to f3 please remember back to my posts and don't just wing a villager read on her because she can make abrasive posts and act "indignant". I think I have an okay feel of the situation and there's nothing she's done this game that she isn't capable of doing as a wolf. Just jot it down, you don't have to do anything about it now, just keep it somewhere because if Besie as a wolf and she wins I will be furious about it.

 

All true. I'm capable of pretty much anything. And I did try to play my wolf game as I would have played town in Diablo. That way, my wolf game wouldn't be so distinguishable when I am indeed wolf. Am I shooting myself in the foot by doing so? Probably.

 

I can say to you, "I am villa! Don't kill me!", but I'm fully aware that I did that repeatedly as wolf in Diablo, and that's why I've not been doing that in this game.

 

It's small. I tend to focus on the small things that people might think are silly. That'll improve in time. I know you can see that in both Diablo, and in this game too. 

 

Bonus content (which is why it's a catchup post rather than immediately responding when I read it):

 

 

I actually spent a few minutes wrapping my brain around why I may seem scummy to you. And, I understand it. On one hand, you have players you've been playing with for months; you know their gameplay and you're fairly certain that you know when they're lying or not. On the other hand, you have me. This is not AtE; sorry if it sounds like it is, but I'm just being logical. Fact is that you've been saying I'm hard to read since beginning D1. In the end, you put me as town and still doubt yourself. By your PoE, scum.

 

So that when you have to decide on a deepwolfing candidate between the people who you think is town, you go for the one you doubt the most. I'd have done the same.

 

 

 

 

If you read this, the same to you, Pizza. I believe you and Cory have the same reason for thinking I'm a not-really-deepwolfing-since-i-was-never-thought-as-locked-town scum.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Honestly if I had three shots right now I'd take out Tina, Shad and Besie.

 

Besie or Nikon is probably the decision for the third but I think Besie has more equity to go deep. If Nikon is a wolf he's not getting far.

Without any sarcasm at all: I find it really sweet that you think I have that ability

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also fwiw theres another pretty basic and simple explanation but I'll let her answer for herself without me giving her the answer.

It's time to let me do my thing and prod as I will without getting involved.

 

I promise I'll deliver her back to you in one piece when this all is over. Maybe I'm wrong, but the only way we'll figure that out is if I figure that out.

Listen Besie can take care of herself and can certainly fight her own battles...She can be really scary though so I worry almost as much for you here as Besie......lololololol.

Hey now!

 

 

 

You're right though...

 

 

Was that a nervous lolololol? Teehee.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I love that even through all that, this entire 121 page thread, there are still people that think I ever seriously suggested we lynch a town player on purpose. Did 90% of that post fly over everyones head or was I just that freaking unclear?

No, it made sense to me.

[Askthepizzaguy]

 

 

I love that even through all that, this entire 121 page thread, there are still people that think I ever seriously suggested we lynch a town player on purpose. Did 90% of that post fly over everyones head or was I just that freaking unclear?

 

"Would we ever want to lynch a towny to ensure a majority in the NK selection?"

 

Your exact words, btw.

 

It's phrased as a question, but you're presenting it as an option.

 

Yeah, and then I never brought it up as a serious suggestion ever again. Because it wasnt the main thing I was arguing at the time, it was a side question. The fact that everyone associates that with double VC idea is stupid and they arnt actually reading.

 

 

So what you're saying the discrepancy is, is that it wasn't a serious suggestion, or that it wasn't seriously suggested for very long?

 

It was brought up around the same time, so people associate those two ideas together.

 

But your insistence that you never seriously suggested it conflicts with the thread, that's the disconnect.

 

You see, in your head, it was like 0.000001% of what you were talking about.

 

And then it became 90% of what everyone else talked about when they talked about you.

 

That's why you can't understand why it's such a big deal, or why people thought it was a major component of what you were talking about. But people are not good at reading minds. Even very experienced ones.

 

What you're thinking and what you're saying can be completely different things. Because you never meant for it to be taken as such a serious suggestion. Right?

 

Except that's the lasting impression that formed in people's heads.

 

If you ever can't understand why people find you scummy when you're a townie, maybe this helps. There's always a disconnect between what you meant to say when you typed something, and what people perceive.

[Askthepizzaguy]

 

I love that even through all that, this entire 121 page thread, there are still people that think I ever seriously suggested we lynch a town player on purpose. Did 90% of that post fly over everyones head or was I just that freaking unclear?

No, it made sense to me.

 

Noted.

[Askthepizzaguy]

@BFG:

 

In post 481 at the top of page 25, you mention Besie and have put her in your leans/poe list but I am not certain I am understanding your post.

 

You know what you were thinking at that time, if you read the context.

 

Besie was town, null, or scummy to you in that post?

 

Clarification question.

[Shad_]

 

This is what I wrote in notepad. Completely unfinished thoughts. We have to head out again and oh boy oh boy my wife found a cat on a back round an hour ago so I have that to deal with.

 

I'm only even posting this so you know I really do exist:

 

 

Her main argument against Lenlo is the same smudging Dice line that Pizza took, along with a possible TMI about night actions. I don't have time to see which of them suggested it first, but Tina seems to think she did:

 

 

Tina -1 Early bad stuff (2 posts) mitigated a bit, possible distancing from Lenlo in progress. But, hey, looking better.

I have no idea what these numbers means but I don´t like your comment about me. You just followed me on Lenlo but think I might be distancing. It seems really weird to me.

 

and isn't particularly happy about how he handles it. Pizza had picked up on the argument while simultaneously calling Tina scummy for suggesting it. Well, yeah, I can see town being bothered by that.

 

She reiterates her points on Lenlo, says she had a question for Zander but will have to ask it later, that's about it on to the 27th.

 

27th she kicks off the game with thoughts on everybody. Reiterates her earlier thoughts about Lenlo but likes #812 and is considering unvoting. Doesn't like that Pizza tunneled Lenlo and didn't understand his unvote. ~~Does she never follow through with why did Pizza call her Lenlo suspicion scummy yet copy it?

 

 

 

I brought up Dices math because to me it seemed like that part of your case on me depended on the fact that I was subtly laying out that Dice was scum so everyone else could lynch him for me.

 

I brought it up because I wanted to show that was not the case. There were two different convos going on there. One about mechanics and the other, later on, about Dices reactions. During the mechanics talk I wasnt trying to resolve his slot, I was focusing purely on the mechanics because I like to focus on one topic at a time. After that talk, Dice voted me because I annoyed him/wasnt listening to his opinion even though his math was for his logic was horrible. Its at this point that I get into it with Dice, because his vote on me was garbage and at the time he wasnt reacting very well at all.

 

I did not want our conversation to focus on Dice, I did not want to shift our conversation to Dice, if that is what you thought I was doing. I wanted to reach back to my convo with him and show why I was getting into with him and why I was frustrated with him that I used the bold and caps since that seems to be a good bit of your problem with me.

 

To be frank, I am quite frustrated with you atm because you go on and on about honesty with posts but from my perspective you seem to be twisting my words. Yeah, I dont compose my posts as much as you, but thats because I dont want to limit what I post. I used to compose my posts, or atleast try to, and it always lead to people saying I was trying to hard to sound town, that everything I said sounded forced or unnatural. So I decided to switch to the other side and just say whats on my mind. Yeah it has its problems, but its less problems than what I did before and the problems also arnt as bad.

 

 

Likes Zander and Cory but doesn't give much reason, likes BFG's level of activity but doesn't think she's really following through. Nikon null, doesn't remember my posts, Nolder laying low, hasn't paid attention to Besie, thinks Sooh is waffling a bit on Lenlo but hasn't read all her posts, Dice started towny but hasn't been active since.

 

~~That's quite a lot of null/didn't read/this player hasn't said enough yet. Pot Kettle though maybe, I dunno.

 

Lots of focus on the vote counts.

 

Asks Pizza if he unvoted Lenlo because Lenlo fought back.

 

 

 

Throws some dirt at Tina...possibly distancing?

 

TLDR

 

Shad using a lot of AtE

 

Shad's involvement/lack of solidified reads/ and kind of Meh attitude is not what I expect from Town!Shad

 

Didn't like the fact he voted Pizza without finishing is ISO on Pizza especially since Pizza flipped Town.

 

Weak poss soft claim.

 

Pretty certain Shad's a Wolf

 

Like between Shad/Tina/Nikon I feel very strongly we hit at least 2 wolves.

 

 

Red: Is that dirt?  I didn't finish it and still haven't.  Why are you putting words in my mouth??

 

Blue: I've told you it's not AtE.  Again, if I say I'm busy, I mean it.  I don't want you to "feel bad for me".  Just deal with it.

 

Green: I gave a very explicit and detailed reason for why I thought Pizza was scum.  If you had read it, you would understand that further content wasn't really that important.  So why didn't you bother reading it?

 

Orange: You asked me directly if i was scum.  I said no, and you responded to that by voting me.  So I asked what the hell did you want me to say?  Did you want me to soft claim wolf?  That isn't the same as soft claiming wolf.

 

What exactly makes you town in this game Zander?  Remind me, because I'm starting to forget.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Shad, name 3 wolves.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Off the top of your head, can change opinion later.

[Shad_]

Well Tina Nikon Nolder is where I was at before.

[Shad_]

But that needs work.  It's dated.  Beginning to worry about Zander.  Need to read the recent case on Besie.

[Shad_]

4am is super past my bedtime though dude, I'll hang around 5 more minutes if you've got a quick question but I need to zzzzzz

[Askthepizzaguy]

Nikon's recent attempted Pizza-ing of the game resulted in a pretty clear glimpse of his mental process.

 

Where he began at start of game and began giving leans on things

 

Very useful in determining his alignment despite his low-posting. I can grab the post for you if you like but it's not that far back.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Or it might be far back. I don't remember. I quoted it tho recently.

[Shad_]

I saw that, the sub request, doing that thing you do with points for each post, I didn't really get the point of putting that much work into such a small and early snippet of the game--and like you said into a player whose alignment is already known.  Seems like a big waste of time, doesn't scream wolf or town to me and I'm not sure what to make of it, but it's a little late in the game for me to give it a pass.

[Shad_]

anyway going to sleep

[Askthepizzaguy]

I think it reads town.

 

Tina and Besie are looking like a lock.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Tina is consensus scummy by now and Nikon is a pretty easy person to POE, Nolder on the other hand merits consideration.

 

But I lean town on Nolder.

 

@ All townies:

Shad giving me Tina and Nikon and Nolder means that Shad is a scumbag if Nolder and Nikon are townies and Tina is mafia.

[Askthepizzaguy]

If you're afraid of resolving Shad tomorrow, and I'd be willing to give the guy more time,

 

Leave him alive.

 

But always, always, always, always lynch him if the alignments of those three he just gave me are Tina-scum, Nikon-townie, Nolder-townie.

 

Period.