[Advanced] Nightmare Before Christmas - Town Wins!

[Thane Vakarian]

*summons the remaining two votes*

(i dunno how long it'll take, but they should happen)

[Nolder]

Shad I don't think I'm going to get to that ISO today due to being a zombie but odds are we're lynching AJ anyway so it doesn't matter I guess.

[Thane Vakarian]

Nolder: do you really believe AJ conceded, or does he have some sort of secret agenda?

[Shad_]

@Nolder

On a gut level: AJ's tone almost always sketches me out at the start of games, and by the end of D1 that feeling is generally long gone and I've got him as solid town by the end of D1. I think it's generally a consequence of town!AJ having a habit of kickstarting games and making not 100% sincere observations in order to get the ball rolling. But the feeling never went away in this game.

On the content level: he made two posts that felt like TMI to me--I don't really like using TMI to build a case because it's often wrong, but it at least inclines me to look harder at the player. The most stand-out thing on D1 for me was this:

 

 

 

Or he could actually just think I'm null. That's not a possibility you're allowing and it's unfair to the analysis.

The bolded part was something I was actually hoping NotBob would say, as I stated earlier about not wanting to write his defense for him. It was something that I considered when evaluating Pizza's case earlier but I disagree with you that Pizza was necessarily wrong for pointing it out.

 

I'm not sure I follow you here. NotBob had already made his 'Nolder is null' case. Pizza called it scummy. What more could NotBob have said in line with Nolder's comment besides "I'm not lying"?

 

 

@Shad - could you phrase your question a little differently? I'm not sure exactly what you're asking. Basically what I was saying is that I would've thought very highly of NotBob is he would've countered Pizza by reaffirming his stance with the counterpoint Nolder pointed out. It was something I had considered during the debate and I think it would've been a reasonable defense on NB's part instead of how he sort of threw shade at Pizza

Well, Pizza's argument began along the lines of "town wouldn't care that I want to lynch someone in their null pile, but scum would take advantage" and quickly evolved to something more like "town might care, but they would engage me on the subject rather than passively disagreeing". He's wrong in the first instance and not necessarily right in the second (though it may hold true more often than not), but in either case "why aren't you considering the possibility that NotBob could be town?" isn't a direct path into the issue.

Here's a terrible but simple example: I say "Tab has been quiet. Only scum are quiet. Therefor Tab is scum." Nolder's question challenges the conclusion, but the flaw is in the premise. Nolder raising his particular question at least conveys some element of disagreement from a potential town. NotBob raising it doesn't really convey anything at all, unless you think scum!NotBob would say "damn, you got me".

But I'm saying this a few hours after reading Pizza's posts, so maybe I've gotten my facts confused.

 

 

TL;DR: AJ made an observation about NotBob that doesn't make terribly much sense when you stop and think about it, and it doesn't seem to lead anywhere either. It made me wonder if he was just commenting for the sake of trying to appear involved. He let the topic drop after my last post above, and I wasn't terribly thrilled by that either.

N2/D2: I had orchestrated a scene for reactions. I had different expectations for how different players would react as town, and AJ failed the test. He opted to wait a while before calling EoD scummy, and he supported this by calling my questioning of NotBob and Nolder scummy as well. I think this is out of character for him. I have always known AJ to call things scummy when he sees them, not reserve his thoughts until he has more to go on. Even if he's been busy irl, it doesn't sit well with me. When he was doing his catch-up I would expect him to quote it and call it out, either in a WoT when he's done or live when he sees it. That is the pattern of behavior he has demonstrated in the past.

I started to prod him, and he immediately put the nix to it. He pulled that quote from Pulp Fiction scum QT and posted it without explanation while implying that it had some profound "gotcha". When asked what he was getting at, he said:

 

It's a quote from the scum QT of my Pulp Fiction game.

Shad was scum there. Read the last line specifically and then think about why he's asking me that sort of question about his meta. I see where he wants this argument to go but I'm gonna nip it in the bud beforehand.

It's kind of simple.

Shad wants me to build a case on him being scum using meta. I pulled that quote to show that he understands the concept of perception and how to manipulate his behavior in a way that will get him town read by certain players. I think it's wolfy for him to ask me that sort of question when I believe his defense will be to point at other games, most likely town games, to provide some sort of proof for his EOD stunt.

There are several instances in this game from D1 where I noticed him hitting little checkboxes when it comes to our dynamic together, IE - he wants to use meta as a defense but clearly he knows how to act accordingly.

 

As far as I'm concerned it's the post that fully outed him.

1) I don't see where the baseline argument amounts to anything but "Shad is playing to his town meta, but he knows how to do that as scum, so he must be scum."

Other reasons, but you wanted me to be concise:

2) He's calling attention to more things that "bothered" him on D1, but once again he never called them out on D1. I have never known town!AJ to do this.

3) He says I want him to build a case on me so I can refute it. That's silly. It's indirect. Why would town!AJ assume that scum!Shad wants him to be suspicious of me? If AJ's argument was honest, I think he would have naturally assumed the more direct line of--"Shad thinks I'll give him a pass for playing to his meta, but I won't."

4) He remembered my posts in Pulp Fiction well enough to pull up a scum QT quote, but he "forgot" that the two people who I bragged about being able to fool ended up being the first two in the game to call me scum. I know he was mostly inactive in our VS game, but he probably also ought to remember that BFG completely crushed my scum soul there using an entirely meta-based case. Yes, of course I still believe I can mirror my town meta as scum, but I don't think AJ is convinced that I can.

Bottom line: I thought AJ was scum prior to him dropping the QT quote. I don't see the quote/argument stemming from a town way of thinking in general, and it's an a-typical way for town!AJ to present information. On the other hand, I can see a simple scum agenda where AJ knew I was about to go at him with a bunch of leading questions and he wanted to, in his words, "nip it in the bud beforehand". In Pulp Fiction, Laine caught on that I wasn't playing to my meta, and I circumvented her questioning by attacking her head on. Her convictions lead her to sussing me for the wrong reasons, and because I could easily tear those arguments apart, I won. I started to get the feeling that AJ was doing the exact same thing here, so I stopped playing along and started re-quoting what was bothering me in the first place Zander-style. I think his post at EoD closed the case.

Some people think scum!AJ wouldn't just surrender like that. I've never played with him as scum, but I can't agree. He obviously really is busy irl, it's Christmas, and in the best possible case he might have gotten me mislynched tomorrow and been a policy lynch after my flip. Maybe it's a 2-man scum team and his team has already lost. Maybe his third partner has some wild gambit in store. Hell, maybe he's some weird 3p whose win condition is to eat a vig shot. But I cannot envision a scenario where it is beneficial for town to fake-claim scum. The only people he'd be fooling are the village, and do you really think scum can't fake satisfaction/disbelief?

[Shad_]

Shad I don't think I'm going to get to that ISO today due to being a zombie but odds are we're lynching AJ anyway so it doesn't matter I guess.

 

Yep, it's all good.

[Thane Vakarian]

hi Shad. Why aren't you voting yet?

[Shad_]

hi Shad. Why aren't you voting yet?

 

haha good question

[Nolder]

Nolder: do you really believe AJ conceded, or does he have some sort of secret agenda?

I'm trying to figure that out in my head right now.

At the moment I just don't know.

[Shad_]

A part of me wants to hear what AJ was gaming at first, see if he actually had something to say or if he stuck around after claiming for the lulz.

[Shad_]

Another part of me wants to speed-lynch him before he has an opportunity to convince people to unvote.

[Nolder]

You know what?

I wanted to wait to hear some final words or get a roleclaim or something but because he was so cryptic I don't know that I'd believe anything he said anyway.

Might as well just lynch him and move on I think.

 

[v]AJ[/v]

[Shad_]

He logged out 6 minutes before Leelou posted, so he might not actually know it's day already.

[Shad_]

Dice didn't want AJ to be vigged last night.  Dice is town.  You around?  Any thoughts before hammer?

[Lenlo]

Don't worry Shad, I'm as likely to unvote AJ as I was to unvote Tab. It's not happening.

[Shad_]

I like that he's at L-1.  AJ, claim what you have to claim so I can hammer you.

[Thane Vakarian]

A speedlynch is an option here. I don't think we need more info on him. The coming night will resolve another slot, and we'll have plenty of time to lynch BFG figure out the next wolf.

[Shad_]

Thane: It's basically this.  AJ shows up and says "I'm a woefully misguided PR but I mechanically outed Thane as scum last night," cool beans, I drop the hammer and in the 1% chance he's telling the truth that information is not lost.

[Thane Vakarian]

Thane: It's basically this.  AJ shows up and says "I'm a woefully misguided PR but I mechanically outed Thane as scum last night," cool beans, I drop the hammer and in the 1% chance he's telling the truth that information is not lost.

Maybe he was hoping that I wouldn't be around today either, but i am here to help town. Mechanically outing me as scum is not possible, seeing I'm town.

 

Also, Shad, for you, the same:

That's ok Lenlo, and I totally understand. There's a reason I came back into the game when it became clear that I wasn't going to get replaced, and I shall elaborate on that later. You can hold me to that. 

the bolded. *nods*

[Nolder]

How is he going to mechanically out Thane as scum?

[Shad_]

I think you're town.  I plugged you in the example because I was responding to you and I don't have any sort of PR result on your slot to confirm.

[Thane Vakarian]

he can try, but I still have some hidden talents

[Thane Vakarian]

I think you're town.  I plugged you in the example because I was responding to you and I don't have any sort of PR result on your slot to confirm.

ooohhhh.... don't tell me you're rolefishing

[Shad_]

How is he going to mechanically out Thane as scum?

 

I have absolutely no clue.  I don't like lynching people before they can claim unless it's EoD and they don't bother showing up.  The only thing that's going to prevent me from hammering AJ is if Leelou drops Innocent Child on us, and it's way too late for that to realistically ever happen.  But I want his statement on record.  When he flips red we can forget it ever happened.  Capeesh?

[Shad_]

 

I think you're town.  I plugged you in the example because I was responding to you and I don't have any sort of PR result on your slot to confirm.

ooohhhh.... don't tell me you're rolefishing

 

 

I'm not role "fishing".  I'm blatantly asking AJ for his final role-related words.  >_>

[Thane Vakarian]

I'd be interested in that explanation too. However, I am not taking my vote off of him.