[Standard] The Matrix Reloaded - Game Over

[Askthepizzaguy]

  On 10/28/2015 at 5:39 AM, Lenlo said:

I agree with the premise's in theory, but I suppose I disagree with the conclusion. I dont think someone who only posts other peoples words is likely to be town. Thus, I want them lynched. I acknowledge I can be wrong here, as I have only played 1 game since I came back and everyone else seems to think Zander is town. I refuse to let that stop me from pushing him until he either gets better and becomes the hero we need, or breaks and crumbles into dust.

 

As for your concern, I can answer that. I am playing a controlled game. I try to think about the majority of what I post and I do have plans/ideas that I am attempting to pull off in the hopes of catching scum/proving townies. This is because for a span of probably 6 months before I took a break I was (In my mind atleast) considered a jester of mafia. No one took me seriously. I coasted on jokes, chatting and the occasional good mafia gambit/town PR gamble. I hated that feeling. It feels like crap to be a jester. So I left, took some time off, and decided I was going to try and become a player people enjoyed playing with because they played a good game. Because they made it fun and interesting.

 

So yeah, I think through what I do because now I actually play to win, rather than just to hang out.

 

I understand your motivation for wanting to change your approach.

 

You do as you will, but I noted your control, which stuck out in my mind because it feels unnatural.

 

You need to be yourself to give others the best chance of reading you correctly. Loosen up your tight control, relax, and have fun as well as attempt to solve.

 

Otherwise, it appears as though you are trying to avoid suspicion by playing the part of the serious townie.

 

This is advice and you can dismiss it out of hand- I will read you carefully to see where you stand and why, and consider it. But unless I can get a better handle on your honesty and sincerity levels, I will have difficulty moving you into a townie position and others may have the same problem. It's the unnaturalness of your posts that ping, and if you be more natural it will help matters, I think.

 

That said, I say what I think no matter how it appears and it will backfire, so I don't know how great my advice is for anything other than helping me understand you.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I need a break before I do additional work, and the thread could probably use a Nomi break.

 

I'm here but I will be distracted and not making progress for a while. Call my name if you want me to respond to something.

[Sili Quirrels]

fwiw, even if you don't trust my gut impromptu reads (probably wise), I really do think the wolves are either lazy or experienced. like i think it is exactly an either or premise here.

[Sili Quirrels]

this gmae reminds me of another game btw, but that's neither here or there. For now, lynch someone who isn't trying and reevaluate later... imo.

[Sili Quirrels]

Nomi and corlanna sound town but I will never trust them haha.

[dicetosser1]

  On 10/28/2015 at 5:30 AM, Nomi Sunrider said:

 

 

 

5) Dice- My confidence level here is about 75%. I think he blundered his alignment away when he chose his target and reasoning for today. There's a big gap between him and all my other suspects. Note how I reacted to all the other suspicion in my direction this game. Dice is attacking something he feels he can make look bad, and there's an agenda behind his suspicions which does not exist in anyone else who has put my name forward. It's clear that he's the outlier.

 

 

 

Actually I attacked something I actually feel is bad. You contradict ureself and if you have a look thru my game history you will see I jump on people for that.

 

I DO have a problem with this whole Ive got a secret but the mod knows.

 

On a game level it makes me distrust you right off the bat because you are hiding something. Something that based on what you have said would allow some people to have expectations of or ways to read you. You have done nothing this game that overrides that instant suspicion and then you say you lynch people for doing exactly what you are doing. But of course we shouldnt lynch you! NO NONO!  I call bullshanks. And think you should be lynched

 

On a site level  If I find out you are a regular player from here using an ALT account there will be a complaint headed the mods way. 

[Askthepizzaguy]

You are mafia and furthermore, your attitude is sucking the fun out of this game for me. You really should be ashamed of yourself, on an out of character level.

 

I will not allow my displeasure with that to affect the game otherwise, but you really should re-evaluate what you accuse others of.

[Sili Quirrels]

~deflection~

[Askthepizzaguy]

This is my in-game response to what you've said that actually pertains to the solve.

 

This is the sequence of events leading up to this, from where I sit.

 

Sili and perhaps another take issue with how I opened the game, because I said something which they did not expect from a newbie. I never claimed to be one, simply not a regular player here, with experience elsewhere under a different name. Which I then promptly revealed.

 

A number of players expressed question marks, curiosities about me and my approach to the game, or didn't trust me, or felt I was scum, in ways I can accept as being legitimate.

 

But there's a point where if enough townies express a similar opinion, a mafioso will consider it safe to put their vote there.

 

Commonplace arguments appeal to things like a lack of information, hypocrisy charges, inconsistency arguments. Why because those are things we can't dispute and we can readily see them if we examine the target.

 

It's easy. And, it's not an outlier opinion if several townies have already expressed their concern. You simply made a common, safe, strategically sound move.

 

Now I compare you to the others this game who are paranoid and suspicious. Sili's paranoia, Zander's, and so on. They have an opinion, and their opinion is stubborn. And they might feel strongly about their opinion in some cases. But there is more doubt in what they say. It comes from a position of less information.

 

You on the other hand have an agenda behind what you're saying. I need to die because I am hiding something. Policy lynches are easy to defend. Policies are stubborn.

 

But that's the difference. A townie's opinion can be stubborn, but it's based on suspicion. Yours is based on a policy of lynching whatever you can call hypocritical, inconsistent, or hidden.

 

That allows you the freedom to defend your attack. It is safe and it isn't unique. And it is motivated by an interest in the result, not the cause.

 

You will not allow for the idea that I have a valid reason to not reveal my history, and are explicitly using it as a means of lynching me. That is where you made the error.

 

You are the outlier in this group, and your dishonest agenda is laid bare by your methodology.

[Sili Quirrels]

my problem with u was u sounded quite fake.

[Sili Quirrels]

i can't say for sure, but dice is being dice. i havent even seen him go hard yet.

[dicetosser1]

so mafia are never inconsistant? is that what you are saying? they never hide stuff?

 

 

and please  feel free to use the thesaurus to answer me    it might impress someone.

[Sili Quirrels]

which i guess means he's not being dice. but not they way you mean it if you're saying him tackling someone means he's mafia.

[dicetosser1]

  On 10/28/2015 at 7:38 AM, Sili Quirrels said:

my problem with u was u sounded quite fake.

 

from ure next post sili can I assume this was aimed at Nomi?

[Sili Quirrels]

ya.

[Askthepizzaguy]

  On 10/28/2015 at 7:39 AM, dicetosser1 said:

so mafia are never inconsistant? is that what you are saying? they never hide stuff?

 

 

and please  feel free to use the thesaurus to answer me    it might impress someone.

 

Human beings are inconsistent. You act like townies never change opinions, hold contradictory ones, or hold others to standards which they don't meet because they know they are a townie so they give themselves the excuse. They have a blind spot in their own behavior, so obviously they will prosecute others for things they themselves do.

 

When human beings play mafia, their humanity reveals itself. And yes, mafia do it too.

 

You attack it like it's out of the ordinary, and that is why your argument is disingenuous.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I challenge you Dice:

 

Do you think Sili is mafia?

 

Would you be surprised to see his inconsistent and often contradictory positions he's taken on me alone already in this one round of this one game?

 

He's still a townie. Explain that. Or do you not want to policy lynch him for his inconsistency?

[Askthepizzaguy]

Even such a question holds you to an unfair standard of consistency.

 

That kind of thinking overlooks nuance. Why can you hold an opinion on Nomi that is different from Sili, because context and details exist.

 

Townies understand that instinctively, but seem to develop Alzheimers when they rand mafia. Now you demand unnatural and unfair levels of consistency because it is something you can label as a weakness and attack it.

 

I've done it dozens of times myself. You're using a tired and generic method and it's showing badly right now.

[BFG]

Morning :)

 

Sorry for extended absence, this week has been busier than expected :/ I should have an hour or so late this evening, but no proper time till tomorrow night.

 

Oddly I find myself irritated both by the group of people pointing out my inactivity and bemused/irritated by the people who were pointing fingers at Hallia, Tabor, Thane, Sooh and not me this is something I'll be paying attention to later.

 

For Sooh, Tabor, Zander

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

You guys rock <333

 

 

 

I've just about skimmed through the thread, which isn't massively helpful since I can't remember much.

 

 

 

Shad is my easiest town read, which I never thought I'd say after Pulp Fiction, but his posts feel less polished(?) constructed(?) (not sure the word I'm looking for) than his most recent game as mafia. He's also pointed out things that caught my attention (such as the amount Thane had posted (when a couple of people (Laine/???) pointed to Thane's reads list and questioned Lenlo about it, I don't recall if Lenlo responded/acknowledged Thane's later posts or not though) when Lenlo made his initial reads). (minor point but Shad's focus is also broader this game, he tends to focus in on a couple of players as suspects when mafia, whereas this game seems to be looking ~everywhere, having said that I don't really know where he's looking at for mafia, so this is based more off his looking for town.)

 

Although not as confident I also like the look of Zander this game. Not sure I can say it's a town tell as such, because I don't think we've towned together since his first game but he's explaining a lot more of his thoughts this game than I'm used to as opposed to just quoting random posts and leaving it up to everyone else to interpret for him. It's a good look regardless :)

 

I'm also ~liking Nomi, although I suspect it's to soon to have strong feelings here. Generally it's ease of posting, although if he's played here before and is comfortable with the people playing it won't mean as much, but there are reasoned thoughts given easily that make sense with thread flow.

 

Thane I really want to call town for his early, unpressured involvement but he's skirting one thing that makes me extremely wary. The involvement is probably the bigger thing at the moment, so town for now :)

 

At the moment I'm most suspicious of Dice, I didn't recall much from him from reading through (choosing to respond to fluff mostly, I think there were a couple of game comments, he started the Hallia meta thing, but didn't follow up outside of responding to Clov, if it interested him why not look at the other people involved in the discussion?) and I don't 'get' his policy vote on Nomi. Will probably be concentrating here tonight. His recent 'thesaurus' comment made me smile, but it's odd that he refers to mafia being inconsistent specifically. Will look forward to rereading this later on.

 

 

Unfortunately everyone else is in a mushy category of general paranoia, confusion, or my poor memory not remembering enough of what they've posted. This will be rectified tomorrow :)

[dicetosser1]

  On 10/28/2015 at 7:09 AM, Nomi Sunrider said:

 

 

 

 

But that's the difference. A townie's opinion can be stubborn, but it's based on suspicion. Yours is based on a policy of lynching whatever you can call hypocritical, inconsistent, or hidden.

 

 

 

this here is why i asked you that. You are saying a TOWNIE can be these things. So it seems you are saying a MAFIA cant be. Hence I asked. but somehow that got you VERY defensive.

 

I wonder why??

 

Your response in 916 doesnt answer my question. Instead you start talking about townies again. Lumping yourself in with them and nattering like they are the only thing in this game. Hate to tell you but there are mafia here somewhere  as im sure you are VERY aware of  but you dont want to discuss mafia do you? All those things can apply to mafia as well 

 

How do you find mafia? One of the things you look for is inconsistencies.  You look for where they say they will do this  but then dont do it. Thats exactly what you did.  You said you would normally vote someone who is not sharing openly. but you are doing exactly that. and yet I shouldnt vote you?  

 

 

 

As for ure challenge??  LMAO I have jumped at Sili for being inconsistent with his reads and play SOOOOOO many times ive lost count.   This time? I think he is town. he is probably one of my strongest reads actually.

 

  I think hell just got snowed in.

 

 

So do you wanna rail some more or can we just lynch you now and move on with winning the game for town?

[dicetosser1]

why is it odd BFG?? I think Nomi is mafia and its because of that inconstancy. That is something I look for 

[BFG]

  On 10/28/2015 at 8:34 AM, dicetosser1 said:

why is it odd BFG?? I think Nomi is mafia and its because of that inconstancy. That is something I look for

Partly because everyone's inconsistent

 

Mostly because it seemed different (although since Nomi hasn't responded with this, maybe I'm misreading/understanding). Nomi was talking about a players reads/thought process when it's difficult to read a townie without them (irony I know), whereas you're annoyed that he's not sharing his usual name. They're different things (in my head, one's in game and one's out of game) and you said you didn't care about meta, so I don't understand why it bothers you. Likewise your thoughts on alt accounts are out of game related unless you suspect him of cheating (which is ruled out since Nolder is aware of it)

[BFG]

Aannnddddd late for work, see you all later :)

[dicetosser1]

you missed the bit that actually got the vote bfg    

[Askthepizzaguy]

Okay, ISO of Dicetosser.

 

Figuring out how to get the post number was fun. But I think I can work with this site's functionality, now.

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Post 123, opener post.

Dice random voting stage or joke vote of Zander, no other game related content. Exchanging of pleasantries.

 

Post 126

Says hello to Sooh via fist bump

 

Post 128

Nothing game related.

 

Post 174

Calls attention to Sili, for not making sense [Not really an arguable point, essentially a Hey Isn't This Guy Strange post]

 

----

 

Post 266

Relies to cory about spelling, says he's here but doesn't have much to comment on.

 

Post 276

Replies to Sili about his reads changing which Sili didn't elaborate on. Dice asks him to share.

 

---

 

Post 326

Again comments about Sili's phoneposting. Offers nothing else.

 

---

 

Post 516

Talks to Yates about a previous game.

Replies to Clov's 420 regarding Hallia, says "So we are giving road maps for Hally to use to avoid things if she is mafia now? Noted"

 

This is essentially a criticism of Clov's methods. But it's so soft that it is meaningless to the solve and is the sort of things scumbags do to distance from a teammate.

 

Post 517

Gives opinion that the post of Sooh's that people were picking at wasn't out of the ordinary. Not controversial since others had already given such an opinion as well.

 

Post 522

In response to a Yates post, where Yates asked Dice why he picked on Clov in post 516, but not himself and Cory, and pointed out they'd done the same thing for Dice before, Dice responds that he missed Yates' instance of doing so, saw Cory's but explained it as Cory always does that. Said Clov's was specific, and he just didn't like it.

 

There you go, right there. Inconsistency. Not holding others to an equal set of standards. So, hypocrisy as well, since one of the charges against me was:

 

"@nomi   you have blatantly said i am someone else but im not going to tell the whole truth of that. theres grounds for distrust to start. then you contradict youself regarding rack. dont like my vote? too bad. you said ureself that u distrust players who dont share and lynch them in a neutral setting. Im practicing what u are preaching"

 

So Dice is suggesting I am scum for not sharing about myself (removes context regarding what I will or will not share about myself, which if you examine it closely, reveals that I've been extremely, extremely open about myself, my ideas, my methods, and my suspects so far)

 

For contradicting myself by having a gut read on Rack, but thinking it wiser to give him time to establish himself. This is a scum tell? Sili did the same thing.

 

So Dice is also not practicing what he preaches. He's singled out a player here, Clov, for doing something two others had done and felt it was odd. He singled me out for doing something other villagers have done, and said it was a scumtell, without applying that standard to others.

 

Are these things scummy, Dice? If they are, then you're scummy. Otherwise you must admit these are things townies do.

 

And that my contention that people hold themselves to different standards and turn a blind eye to their own weaknesses when prosecuting during a mafia game is commonplace. And not alignment indicative.

 

But you have indicated your alignment in a different way.

 

----

 

In response to Clov's 525

 

"I don't understand the point here.  You don't like it because you don't think I should do it?  Or you don't like it because you think it somehow suggests I'm mafia? If it's the former, tough - I'm going to answer questions.  If it's the latter, okay, but I don't understand the logic behind it.  Yes, technically it's telling mafia!Hallia what she can do to appear town to me, but that really only matters if we're mafia together....in which case, I could just tell her privately and avoid helping whoever it was that asked (Nomi?).  If anything, it gives Nomi a baseline for understanding how I approach the game and gives him something to use to judge me."

 

This is valid, and also looks at Dice's point with a question mark. Why, because it deserved to be questioned since it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

 

Post 529-

Dice responds that he thought it might indicate that Clov was scum with Hallia (if I'm reading this in context, it doesn't make it explicit so I'm inferring).

 

He explains this is part of his process for being skeptical. He admits it's a stretch and doesn't vote Clov or Hallia for it.

 

But if his interest in either person is pinged, why wouldn't you follow up on your suspects with more interactions or questions?

 

Post 532-

Change of subject. "Hi BFG, should I be voting you?"

 

This is solving? Taking any risks? Yielding more information at all?

 

BFG responds no, should I be voting you, and dice goes "Only if you are mafia."

 

Good, that makes me believe he's actually interested in BFG at all.

 

Post 575

Unvotes Zander and despite his at least two suspects, doesn't vote them or question them further.

 

---

 

Post 825

Asks Zander why he thinks Lenlo is mafia.

 

And here we are in the present, more or less,

 

Post 836

Votes Nomi.

 

Why because I said I distrust players who share as little as possible, implying I am doing so.

 

I have refused to share precisely one thing, which is not relevant to the game.

 

This is Dice's game so far. He's going to find a lot of wolves with these methods.

 

But it's not even his own inconsistencies, double standards, or bad methods. It's his scummy method.

 

It is safe to do what he's doing, and he can defend his position. And for someone who has done essentially nothing all game long to reach such a conclusion that sounds remarkably agenda-driven, based on policy, tells me Dicetosser is not to be trusted.

 

 

 

 

 

Bottom line: Dice has not been hunting for wolves. Has asked almost no questions, the ones he did ask made little sense and weren't solving. He's been coasting under the radar and has done no follow-up on his own purported suspects, nor bothered to even vote for them, save myself. When he comes up with a case it is unreasonable and contrived and unwavering, and incorrect. It is based on opportunism because of what has presented itself on its own, without any of his actual prodding, based on the probing questions of other players.

 

"You have done nothing this game that overrides that instant suspicion and then you say you lynch people for doing exactly what you are doing. But of course we shouldnt lynch you! NO NONO!  I call bullshanks. And think you should be lynched"

 

What is the thing that I am doing that is "exactly" what others are doing that I have voted them for?

 

This thing is saying I distrust players for sharing as little as possible. While refraining from sharing only one thing, and over-sharing about literally everything else under the sun.

 

Which is wholly different for going after a player who isn't sharing, hasn't given any serious reads, and isn't asking questions or demonstrating any known method of solving except "I vote you, die". Referring of course to Rack.

 

That's completely different. Every player in this game knows this.

 

Dice is characterizing the two things as being the same, not only that, "exactly" what others have done.

 

That's a lie.

 

Should I use the policy excuse of Lynch All Liars?

 

Or how about we use some context and nuance here. Which liars should we lynch?

 

• People who lie for a pro-town reason, which they can explain?
• Or ones who do it to cause mislynches?

 

I challenge you Dice:

 

1. Tell me how your lie was pro-town. Or was it a mischaracterization?

 

2. Tell me how mischaracterizing literally the entirety of my gameplay this game is solving, or how you could overlook the 2000 pound elephant in the room, which is that what you're saying is obviously indefensible and there's really no way that could be an honest mistake?

 

3. Or do you claim to have been honest. Tell me how you're being honest. How was that in any way accurate, fair, or honest, your assessment of my play so far? Defend your indefensible statement.

 

4. Let's discuss your solving method. Tell me how your method differentiates between other players in this game, or in any game, hold contrary positions simultaneously. How do you solve for scum with all the false positives your method would yield?

 

5. Let's discuss your value to this village, and what you've done to contribute to solving the game other than finding me scum. Tell me how your game so far has found any villagers. Who is your village? Have you looked for any? Have you explained why any of them are innocent?

 

6. Or maybe you only hunt suspects and don't look for teammates. Fair enough: Tell me how your game so far has exerted any pressure whatsoever on your own suspects, aside from your policy vote of me based on refusal to answer one meta question.

 

7. Or would you like to discuss your own defensiveness since I began pushing back? Obviously defensiveness must be scummy. It's not a null tell at all when someone lobs a flaming bag of poo on your doorstep, is it Dice? They have to be scum, if they make an attempt to stamp it out.

 

 

 

Bon appetit.