What's wrong with Rand's eyes?

[kobra_khan69]

Ignoring the turmoil, Nynaeve gathered her skirts in bloodied hands and hurried to Rand. "Oh, Rand," she said when she saw his arm, "I'm so sorry. I....I'll do what I can, but I can't fix it the way it was." Her eyes were filled with anguish.

 

Wordlessly, he held out his left arm. It throbbed with agony. Strangely, he could still feel his hand. It seemed he should be able to make a fist with the fingers that were no longer there. His goose bumps intensified as she drew more deeply on saidar, the tendrils of smoke vanished from his cuff, and she gripped his arm above the wrist. His entire arm began tingling, and the pain drained away. Slowly, blackened skin was replaced by smooth skin that seemed to ooze down until it covered the small lump that had been the base of his hand. It was a miraculous thing to see. The scarlet-and-gold scaled dragon grew back, too, as much as it could, ending in a bit of golden mane. He could still feel the whole hand.

 

"I'm so sorry," Nynaeve said again. "Let me delve you for any other injuries." She asked, but did not wait, of course. She reached up to cup his head between her hands, and a chill ran through him. "There's something wrong with your eyes," she said with a frown. "I'm afraid to try fixing that without studying on it. The smallest mistake could blind you. How well can you see? How many fingers am I holding up?"

 

"Two. I can see fine," he lied. The black flecks were gone, but everything still seemed seen through water, and he wanted to squint against a sun that appeared to glare ten times brighter than it had. The old wounds in his side were knotted with pain.

 

--from KoD, pages 644-645

 

 

Seriously dont agree with you on this one RAW. Sorry I usually see where your coming from and mostly agree but this time I dont see how anyone can draw the conclusion that the Saa are a result of a fireball exploding in front of someones face. Rand and Moridin/Ishy are connected and it is supported that he is channeling the True Power when he looks at the sun that is shining 10 times brighter than it had which is also characteristic of holding the power, whether its the True Power or One Power, however it is supposed to be substantially more noticeable than the One Power.

 

I think that Rand, through his connection with Moridin, seized the true power and tried to defend himself without knowing that he was. Through his ignorance of the TP he lost his hand because he didn't know what the hell he was doing.

 

 

I decided to make this a new post because I did not want to bring back a month old topic. If I was wrong in not bumping an old topic I apologize and I will delete the thread and repost in the old thread. Just please let me know before you delete it so I can copy my theory.

 

 

This is my opinion of course and could be wrong. I won't get offended if you try to refute my points its relative to your personal point of view.

[Mercer]

I'll try to keep from sighing dramatically.

 

I don't see how you can think he's channeled the true power. Without any previous hinting at it. A fireball exploding in someones face makes so much sense, and fits in so perfectly, while using the True Power through Moridin arguably makes none. "They have a link" is hardly concrete evidence. It is even writtenright before, that LTT and Rand fought for control of the power and both failed to seize it in time. Of course, until RJ says so, there's always the possiblilty what you're saying is true, but it's so damn likely that it's the explosion in from of his face that I can't believe people actually want to believe this saa thing so bad.

[kobra_khan69]

Saa are the black flecks. I'm almost 100% positive about this. He may not have seized the TP it was just something random I thought about as I was typing I'm not sticking to it but the Saa I won't budge on. What else can the black flecks be? Also if it was the fireball exploding in his face why would it be black flecks? Usually when something bright gets shined in your eyes you see white flecks or at least I do.

[Myyrth]

The True Power is something that can only be controlled by someone in the favor of the Great Lord, Rand is certaintly not in the Great Lord's favor.

[kobra_khan69]

Got that but there is a connection between him and Moridin. Maybe Moridin was holding the TP when this went down. Thats why I have no problem recanting my theory of him holding the TP just it will take a lot more to make me believe that they aren't the saa in his eyes.

[Myyrth]

That seems like a bit of a stretch. I think that RJ's description of his eyesight was just that, a description. Don't read too much into it!

[kobra_khan69]

Maybe but I will hold firmly to that particular belief for now.

[Luckers]

Feel free to do so, but...

 

A) The saa do not manifest in the viewers eyes.

 

B) the black specks are blatant, and would be spoken of. The only time anyone notices something wrong with Rands eyes is Nynaeve when she delves him.

 

C)We saw that scene from Rand's POV. He would have felt something. from the Forsaken we know channeling the True Power feels different to the One Power.

 

D) Saa only occurs after long usage. You can be damn sure Rand hasn't done that.

 

E) A man experiences flecks in his vision after staring straight at an explosion... i mean dude....

[kobra_khan69]

Hmm good point let me think on it and get some rest. I'll post again in the morning.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Hmm good point let me think on it and get some rest. I'll post again in the morning.

 

If it would help, I could punch you in the face repeasedly until you see black flecks.

 

 

:D

[Thor]

Last time I checked, a single punch is enough to make someone see black flecks, so what you proposed was totally overkill. :lol:

[kobra_khan69]

Wow you all seem to be getting offended. Sorry if I pissed any of you off but damn.

[Mercer]

^ I think they're in jest.

 

Mostly it's exasperation after the very long discussion on it. Mind, who knows until AMoL is released.

[Barnabas]

i personally didnt even consider the saa until i saw it mentioned on these boards and im not convinced, i used to do martial arts and blows to the head always give spots, its not overly fun.

but for me the biggest thing with the saa is i believe we have a pov from a forsaken earlier in the series (dont have books with me so no quote sorry) that said moridin could see fine even though he had saa all over his eyes, a blizzard or swarm i think they said.

in the fireball case though its rand who sees the flecks and then his vision is blurry, neither of which constitute good vision as such. after all that i guess id say im still highly scepticle about rand channeling the TP

[Fryn]

Its been a long time. The pov was from Samuel or Rahvin I think. He said that he tried never to use it because the price was too high. He said that one of the prices was damaging a users eye sight over extended use. The other was it was highly addictive as it enhances ones sense of life 1000 fold more than holding Saidin. Mordin could still see however as you mentioned his vision also had lots of black specs (personally I think he has used teh true source so often that he just ignores the specs). The last price I think is it tends to make the person slightly insane if its used too often.

 

Personally I don't think we have enough info and won't until the last book is released. Rand's pov could be seeing the black specs of the true source without understanding what he was seeing. It could also be from landing hard on the ground.

 

My only question about the whole sequence however is "what stopped the fireball from completely consuming Rand?" From the description of the fireball it should of had enough force to go straight through Rand instead of stopping with just his hand. Rand also did not fall out of the way so it isn't an issue of it being deflected or Rand moving out of the way; waving a piece of stick infront of a fire won't cause the fire to change course.

 

My only other concern is Nyv makes it sound like its difficult to fix his eyes. I would of assumed eye damage from intense light was common enough that it would be easy to fix, or at the very least it would be something Nyv has seen before. The forsaken have said that the effects from using the true source can not be healed by using the one power so it also sort of fits. In fact Nyv almost makes it seem as hard to heal as the wound in his side (she thinks she can fix it with enough time and the like, but wants to study it first).

 

Personally I wouldn't be suprised if it went either way. For all we know the specs could be from the true source while the blurry vision is the after image and they aren't directly related.

 

However I think the black specs are either due to his fall or from the true source and not a direct result from the fireball. From person experience eye damage from intense light is usually an after image of what caused the damage and I wouldn't describe it as black specs ever. For me its always a bluring section in my vision even if I close my eyes afterwards, and its always a bright spot (not always white but never black). Just look directly at the sun one day or go in a dark room and flash a bright flashlight close to your eyes after they have been used to the dark. To me its not the kind of mistake RJ would make in describing damage to a person; he always seems to have a good take on that kind of thing imo. But the black specs could easily be the result of head trama from hitting his head hard on the ground.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Wow you all seem to be getting offended. Sorry if I pissed any of you off but damn.

 

Yeah, sorry Kobra, I meant that as a joke. I don't really want to punch you.

[kobra_khan69]

No worries RAW.

 

Fryn you make some very good points. The flecks could have been from the fall never thought of that.

[specialj8d]

Considering the wording, and Jordan's love of small, crucial detail, I don't think there can be any doubt that the black flecks are Saa. We've had the Saa described in detail on more than one occasion, and I find it HIGHLY unlikely that Jordan would use the exact same wording of small, black specks in relation to eyes on a whim. Logic says they're related.

 

I propose a second, somewhat flimsy theory. We know that Moridan's Saa come from drawing the source directly from the Dark One. I does this by virtue of being the Dark One's champion.

 

Rand, as the dragon reborn, is the Light's champion. The Creator's champion. We've seen the creator briefly, I believe, in the Eye of the World. Following Rand's battle with Aginor, and his destruction of the dark forces assulting the Shienarans, a man appears and directs him to a stairway of light leading up to Baalzamon. I believe this figure represents the Creator.

 

Further, I propose that the man in Shadow Logeth during rand's fight with Sammuel was the creator, also, and not moridan. It doesn't make sense for Moridan to be there, or to use balefire against one of the other chosen.

 

I believe that the Saa in Rand's eyes come from drawing a heretofor unrevealed source of the ..the source. The Light's version of the True Power, drawn directly from the Creator.

[kobra_khan69]

I also dont see the point in describing the saa but I aint too attached to your theory.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Logic says they're related.

 

No, it doesn't. The conclusion you've reached is based in a logical fallacy called hasty generalization.

 

It goes something like this:

 

"Saa are described as black flecks. Therefore, all things described as black flacks must be saa."

 

It could be compared to the statement:

 

"Salmon are described as fish. Therefore, all things described as fish must be Salmon."

 

Its simply not the case.

 

In addition, there are important differences between saa and the flecks Rand saw. First, they interfered with Rand's vision. Saa do not interfere with the vision of the one who has them. Second, they did not move in a single, straight line across both eyes. Saa do.

 

Finally, no one but Moridin can draw on the True Power now.

 

Is it really that difficult to believe that a fireball (one powerful enough to blow his hand completely off) detonating about 2 1/2 feet from his face would damage his eyes?

[specialj8d]

"Saa are described as black flecks. Therefore, all things described as black flacks must be saa."

 

It could be compared to the statement:

 

"Salmon are described as fish. Therefore, all things described as fish must be Salmon."

 

Its simply not the case.

 

Wow, nice try, but completely different things. Personally, I think the odds of Jordan choosing the wording of small black flecks in regards to a fireball, with no other consequence, veeery long indeed.

 

He could have made the effect of drawing on the True Power to be the eyes glowing red, or going all black. Instead, he chose to illustrate them with small, black flecks.

 

If not Saa, then WHY mention Rand's black flecks at all? It would serve NO purpose, and personally I believe Jordan does everything, chooses every word, with a purpose.

 

As for Saa not interfere with the vision of one who has them, where is the proof of that statement? Rand is still able to see the number of fingers Nynaeve holds up. And there was nothing in the text to indicate that the flecks in Rand's eye did NOT move in a single, straight line.

 

I think you're holding onto your belief that they're related to the fireball too strongly. Take a step back, and try to be objective.

 

If not Saa, why mention them at all? He's already lost a hand, and he'd already been healed of all his other injuries. Nynaeve was reluctant to use the power on his eyes, and to me that indicates it's something beyond the damage suffered from the blast.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Personally, I think the odds of Jordan choosing the wording of small black flecks in regards to a fireball, with no other consequence, veeery long indeed.

 

Your opinion does not affect logic.

 

If not Saa, then WHY mention Rand's black flecks at all? It would serve NO purpose, and personally I believe Jordan does everything, chooses every word, with a purpose.

 

It reinforces the damage to Rand's eyes, which has been prophesied since The Eye of the World.

 

As for Saa not interfere with the vision of one who has them, where is the proof of that statement?

 

In ACoS chapter 20, when we first see saa, they don't interfere with Moridin's sight. They float across his vision, he sees them, but he sees everything else going on clearly too.

 

And there was nothing in the text to indicate that the flecks in Rand's eye did NOT move in a single, straight line.

 

From Knife of Dreams, chapter 27:

 

"His cheek was pressed against the damp ground, he realized. Black flecks shimmered in his vision, and everything seemes faintly hazy, as if seen through water."

 

"shimmered in his vision " is a qualitatively different description than "Black flecks sped across his eyes" (ACoS chapter 20 ), or "A tiny black fleck, just large enough to see, floated straight across one of those blue eyes and then across the other in a straight line." (ACoS chapter 25)

 

Nynaeve was reluctant to use the power on his eyes, and to me that indicates it's something beyond the damage suffered from the blast.

 

If Nynaeve can detect saa, and if that is what Rand has, then why didn't she detect anything in his eyes when she delved him a mere 6 chapters earlier, in the last Rand POV before the trap? Why did the flecks only appear immediately after the fireball blew up in his face?

 

If not Saa, why mention them at all? He's already lost a hand, and he'd already been healed of all his other injuries.

 

No, he hasn't had the never-healing wound in his side Healed. It is that wound, along with his bandaged eyes, that is preserved in the Fisher icon in shah'rah.

 

Look, do you have any corroborating evidence that Rand has used the True Power? That he wanted to or someone could force his to?

 

Your entire idea is based on the false assumption that the words "black flecks" will only be used by Robert Jordan to describe saa.

[specialj8d]

You like to keep throwing that line out, just "black flecks."

 

The fact is, they're black flecks in someone's eyes. That's fairly freaking specific. It's not at all the generalization you'd like to make it out to be.

 

As for Moridan, it does not say ANYWHERE that he saw things "clearly" while using the True Power. You keep making facts up to support your belief.

 

I ask you again- If not Saa, why would Jordan mention black flecks in Rand's eyes at all? It would serve no purpose.

[RobertAlexWillis]

If not Saa, why would Jordan mention black flecks in Rand's eyes at all? It would serve no purpose.

 

Asked and answered. I said:

It reinforces the damage to Rand's eyes, which has been prophesied since The Eye of the World.

 

 

Next:

 

The fact is, they're black flecks in someone's eyes. That's fairly freaking specific.

 

Its not as specific as "black flecks moving in a straight line across his eyes", which Jordan is careful to be specific about in the examples I cited from the books.

 

If I sprinkle pepper in your eyes, you'll have "black flecks" in your eyes. It doesn't mean you're using the True Power.

 

As for Moridan, it does not say ANYWHERE that he saw things "clearly" while using the True Power. You keep making facts up to support your belief.

 

It doesn't say his vision is clouded either, which it specifically DOES with Rand, and it continues to describe the things he sees, quite clearly. I didn't make that up. I gave you a reference for both occurrences.

 

Now, for my questions that YOU didn't address:

 

1)

If Nynaeve can detect saa, and if that is what Rand has, then why didn't she detect anything in his eyes when she delved him a mere 6 chapters earlier, in the last Rand POV before the trap? Why did the flecks only appear immediately after the fireball blew up in his face?

 

2)

Look, do you have any corroborating evidence that Rand has used the True Power? That he wanted to or someone could force his to?

 

Why would Shai'tan LET Rand use the True Power?

[specialj8d]

Read my first post, buddy. I proposed that Rand isn't drawing the source from the DO at all.

 

As we know, the bore that was driven into the DO's prison was originally intended to find a new source of the power aside from Saidar and Saidin.

 

This power became known as the True Power. The source being somehow generated by the dark one, and drawn from him.

 

As the DO's chosen champion, and assumedly with his consent, Moridan can make use of this power.

 

Now, I ask you..if the Dark One's champion can draw the source directly from the Dark one, isn't it logical that that Creator's champion could draw the source directly from the Creator?

 

I propose that Rand, as the Dragon, as the champion of the Light and the Creator, is here drawing power directly from the Creator.

 

As for the wound in rand's side not being healed- well, I should have been more clear. When I said that all of his other injuries were healed by Nynaeve, I meant all of his other injuries directly caused by the fireball.

 

The wound in his side is the product of two very great evils. The evil of dark one, and the evil of shadar logeth via the ruby dagger. To my mind, I can't rational a quickly thrown weave of fire equalling that kind that of unHealable damage.