[Standard] 11/10 Top Tier Vanilla+ Game Thread

[Sili Quirrels]

Nice response.

 

 

  On 11/13/2014 at 3:42 AM, TheRagnarok said:

You should give up on trying to read me.

I'm skeptical.

 

Post more please. I want to have more to work with so I don't misread you.

[Kivam]

Bringing the Recaps together for ease of review

  On 11/11/2014 at 3:50 PM, Kivam said:

RECAP^tm (thoughts are posted as they come up during the review, may have contradictions as the game progresses. Hydra speaker will be in all caps)

 

Page 1: Standard Day 1 BSing. Random votes from Sili (Thane), Salami (Thane) & Darthe (SalamI)

Page 2: Leelou's Sup, Supgate, Darthe accuses Leelou of being meta (don't see it as meta, but Leelou's reaction to Salami's throwaway post was weird, worth filing away, as is this whole interaction).

Page 3: Wombat calls out Darthe's post (+1).  Thane agrees (+1, -1 = null tell).  VerBARM asks why (really?).  Thane starts backfilling (-1).  (OK, maybe VerBARM's post had a point to it - intentional?). Wombat calls out Thane (+1).  DesLAMI agrees with Wombat (+1, -1 = null tell). Andrej tries to shift the discussion of Supgate back to Leelou (-1,000,000!  Super ping-y to me). Thane backfills some more (-1,000,000).

 

Reads to this point (will post after significant action):

 

Scummy (in order) - Thane, Andrej, Darthe

Town - Wombat, Leelou-ish (based on scum-reads above, their posts)

Eyes open (antenna up, but no read yet): VerBARM

 

Page 4: DesLAMI says something about Darthe, while saying nothing.  (Given DESlami's later Darthe focus, potential Gambit play?).  Andrej votes Sili out of nowhere.  ANDREJ - What was up with that? Ah. Next post (that whole thoughts as we go thing kills me again) - says the random (joke?) vote on Thane rubs him the wrong way.  Do not like this post at all.  Yates makes an obvious false cop claim (WIFOM? Is this how you guys play now?  Unless I'm missing something, I don't like this move at all). VERBarm begins to spam the thread (during active gameplay).  Darthe mildly calls out Andrej on VerBARM.  Thane questions the Yates move.  DesLAMI defends it as "standard seer cover".  Nyn posts some content, but not clear about who (pronoun madness!).

 

Page 5: A few people ask Nyn who she is talking about.  Leelou says anything Salami does that's scummy is a town tell.  Yates brings up the "3 Amigos/Soul Read" nonsense that will consume the thread later.  Darthe and VERBarm mildly call out Deslami.

 

Page 6: All Yates all the time.  Spam starts to take over.  Cass puts in an appearance (and promptly disappears again).  Thane posits a Verbarm Deslami Hydra Mafia. 

 

Posting this now before my computer crashes and eats part 1 of the recap.  Part 2 coming.

 

Really, really liking that top 3 list at the moment.  Andrej has stormed into the lead, lots of connections there too.  Let's see about the next 20 pages

 

 

  On 11/11/2014 at 5:04 PM, Kivam said:

RECAP

 

Page 7: Spam at the top.  Cass shows up again, posts nothing, and then says she'll disappear again.  (I'll take Radar Avoidance for $200, Alex).  Arsis takes a run at Yates. Yates defends.  VERBarm turns it into a joke and Andrej LOLs.  Yates reclaims Seer, reiterates that Dice is town.  Andrej says he's bothered by Yates' Amigos reference, but will ignore it (what?).  Andrej half-claims, IDs Stelio as town.  Krak shows up.  I show up, butcher the vote tags.

 

Page 8: Spam. Arsis votes VERBarm for spidey-memes.  VerBARM votes Thane for a good reason (spamming even after the game has started to be a game).  Krak jokes about Leelou's "neither town nor scum" post as a SK tell.  Thane gets very defensive (-1, yet again).  Leelou explains her Spidey-meme tell.  Songstress makes an appearance

 

Still loving my scum list through 8 pages.  Have seen nothing townsided from them.

 

Page 9:  Spidey-meme discussion between VERBarm, Leelou, Arsis. DesLAMI spam continues, then DESlami posts content.  His top scum reads are Darthe, Yates and Thane; 2 of those are on my list and the third is definitely on the radar through page 9, so I'm liking this post.  On the other hand, his read of Andrej seems way off; ignores or misses overtly scummy play.  Nyn responds to a Des request, says she has a town lean on Wombat so far.  I agree, so points for Nyn.

 

Page 10: What the hell does "ITT" mean?  Seen it come up a few times now.  More spam, spidey-meme discussion (pointless.  Once called out, there was no chance VERBarm would have lived up to the tell.  People need to learn when to shut the hell up and watch, and when to speak up.  If you really thought this was a tell, calling him on it before it had a chance to fully develop was the worst play you could make. [Don't mean to be harsh. But damn ...]).  DESlami gives Nyn points for her Wombat response.  Thane recalls his All Hydra Mafia^tm thought, wonders why it was ignored.  DESlami calls it scum-bait. (Again, agreeing with most of DESlami's reads here).  VERBarm says he skims Thane.  Thane says it was a "reaction test" (not a very effective one; no drama at all). Then reads the "reactions" to nobody reacting until he asked for reactions.  (Again, do not like).  VERBarm asks Thane about his test results.  Thane says he finds DESLAMI's reaction (DES reacting, Salami not) off.  

 

Page 11: DesLAMI explains why no reaction (Thane's post was too random and undramatic for him to care about it. Makes sense to me). VerBARM calls Thane out on defensiveness, spamming, bad defense.  (I like this post).  DesLAMI defends Thane's spam.  Arsis, VERBarm, Thane talk about Thane's "Day 1 lynchbait" status.  Thane says he's done spamming "I'm here now, so, if you're town, let's find some scum together, ok?" (Given later behavior as I remember it - will see if memory is accurate on reread, but Wombat's currently ragging on Thane for this so I think it is - this sticks out as scummy as hell).  DesLAMI asks Thane for reads, Thane says DESlami is taking easy angles.  (Thane - if you had a read already, why wait to be asked for it?).  Nyn calls everyone out for meta-ing Thane (+1). 

 

Page 12: Thane asks VerBARM for reads.  Arsis calls out Nyn as opportunistically attacking Thane (-1; did not read Nyn's posts as attacking Thane at all).  Nyn explains herself well (+1).  Krak calls out Nyn's post as townsided (+1, -1 = null tell).  Stelio checks in, dismisses almost all that's gone before as irrelevant (way to put some effort into the game!), questions VerBARM and Darthe's reaction to the 'Sup post.  Arsis defends meta-ing Thane as "an easy day 1 mislynch to be pushed by scum" (-1).  Yates agrees with DesLAMI, has a town read on Thane.  Krak calls Thane a lazy D1 lynch.  Arsis goes on a bit more about why he questions an "easy" day 1 lynch. I like this post.  (+1 to bring him back to null on this whole exchange).  Nyn hasn't seen anything bothersome from Thane so far.  Thane says he expects mafia to be among his defenders to gain towncred (+1 on this; first townsided point I've seen from him).  VerBARM likes Arsis, not Darthe

 

Andrej still way in the scumometer lead thus far.  Concerned about the number of players flying under the radar through p12.  Thane is slipping down the list but not off it entirely.  Feeling fairly decent about VerBarm and DesLami, Wombat seems solid town, and Arsis is a little worrisome while Nyn is a little not (@Nyn - you saw nothing scummy in Thane's early play?). 

 

 

  On 11/11/2014 at 6:42 PM, Kivam said:

RECAP

 

Page 13: Thane notes people are looking at Darthe, finds it "interesting".  VerBARM unvotes Thane after seeing "some real gameplay".  VERBarm agrees with Arsis that Nyn's posts about meta read as scummy (Verb, Barm, could you kindly get your heads together?  You're giving me conflicting reads here!).  Stelio defends Darthe as tending to "get out over his skis", generally dismissive (-1).  Sili asks if Andrej is scum (+1 on thought process, -1 on execution). Spam the rest of the way.

 

Page 14: Thane agrees - thread needs more Andrej.  I post and crap, without the quote feature, the post is useless.  Was noting a DesLAMI defense of Thane (joking and being jovial is typical, not a scum tell, etc.).  Same for an Arsis defense ("uncanny" how often Thane is misread as scum on D1). Spam and a discussion of vote tags.

 

Page 15: Leelou issues a clarification and Nyn gets sultry with it. No reaction from Wes, which is perplexing. Spam until Dice tosses [c what I did there?] a "welcome" vote on Cass.  15 pages of gameplay and this is what you go with?  Dice defends Yates.  Wombat has an "ok" read on Thane (really?  Why?).  Ah - he explains in the next post: Thane's "there'll be a wolf among my defenders" stand.  Darthe with a good post on VerBarm.  Has my same read (Verb sketchy, Barm solid town), so I like this post.  Calls out Thane on his Hydrafia theory (again, +1 to me).  Overall solid post, but it's worrisome that Darthe has essentially made a post identifying everyone as town.  Scum overplaying their knowledge of who is in and who is out?  Don't know Darthe well enough to know if he's a bad enough mafia player for that (unless he's a JNer with a new name, in which case he's definitely bad enough for that, since all JNers are ). 

 

Page 16: Wombat calls out VERBarm and Yates as needing to provide more gameplay, critical of Verb's reaction to Leelou's reaction to Arsis, fan of Darthe's last post.  Still happy with my Wombat read.  Wombat votes Yates.  Leelou notes Verb has her on edge.  Sili has Darthe down as scum, Darthe offers to bet him.  Sili mentions NKing Darthe to confirm the bet.  Andrej shows up, makes an unclear comment to Darthe re his reasoning for a prior argument.  Can't recall what that was at the moment.    Andrej calls out Sili as scummy.  (Andrej-Darthe interactions are interesting here).  More on Yates.

 

Page 17: More on Yates.  On the subject of abbreviations, Darthe, Sili, what the hell did this mean: "EOD CFD?"  End of Day I got, but CFD?  DesLAMI votes Krak (why?).  Sili votes Andrej - defensive or scum read?  Andrej says Sili voted Thane as an easy lynch target. 

 

Page 18: Sili asks if Andrej is reaction-baiting. More Yates (for god's sake, this needs to die. It's either scummy or it isn't, debating every f'ing page is just going in circles.  Having never played with these guys I'm chalking it up as a very light finger on the scales of scumminess but it won't drive my decisions.  Give me something else to recap, people!).  Sili votes Wombat because Sili thinks Andrej is scum (what-the-what?).  VerBARM calls out Sili's play as incredibly erratic & defensive (yes, it is). Leelou says "that's just how he plays" (I hate meta).  Arsis says Sili's play is actually different this game from when he was just lynched as town.  I still hate meta but these claims are mutually contradictory.  Arsis?  Leelou?  What say you?  Sili says he's changed his play intentionally.  Leelou - the "that's just how he plays" line seems to be emphatically rejected.  Thoughts?  VERBarm responds to Darthe & Wombat ... cogently, I think.  Sili explains he doesn't necessarily want to lynch Wombat.

 

Scum reads (in order): Andrej, Sili, Thane, Darthe (slipping down towards neutral)

Town reads: Wombat .... Nyn, VerBARM, DESlami (note the gap; through 18 pages, wombat is as solid town as I've ever seen on day 1).

 

 

  On 11/11/2014 at 10:54 PM, Kivam said:

RECAP

 

Page 19: DesLAMI wonders why Sili would vote a player he doesn't want to lynch (fair question).  I vote Sili for having a NK (+1).  [Note to Thane, Sili - this is how you reaction fish/pressure vote: your vote has to have at least some ostensible rationale behind it, and you can't back away from it too quickly.  I point this out because] Sili claims he voted for Wombat purely as a pressure vote.  (-1.  This is an easy explanation for scum, and if that's what you were doing, announcing that you didn't want him lynched and backing away as quickly as you did meant there was no pressure at all.  This looks like scum dangling a line in the water but ready to yank it back if they got any pressure at all).  VERBarm defends Sili, attacks my vote, identifies Sili as "probably town" (-1).  Hey Verb - what did you base that read on?  Sili proclaims that taking a bullet for Thane is a far, far better thing he does than he has ever done before. while posting a cat smiley.  (A Tale of 2 Kitties?)

 

Page 20: Sili votes DesLami.  Why?  Darthe asks about Sili's activity, tentatively accepts Verb's explanation (-1).  Darthe joins VerBarm in trying to shift attention from Sili to me (-1).  Darthe notes we are missing Rags, Hally, DPR (IIRC, only DPR has since showed; I do NOT feel good about a player who doesn't show at all Day 1).  Darthe calls out Sili on activity levels in more detail ... [ok, this makes me question my "shift attention" thought ... reading these plays as more generally town than they came across on first read.  More "question everything" than potential protect a teammate.  Still a shit response to my read, but less overtly scummy than I remembered].  Darthe continues to prod at Sili, gets a reaction ("OK, I'll be less active").  Passive-aggressive response from Sili is another ping. Wombat calls out Yates, calls Sili on his pressure vote that applies no pressure.  Continues to play a solid townie game.  Darthe calls out Sili's presentation as forced. Arsis suggests this might be coaching. (-1 for Arsis; coaching makes sense only if they are on the same [wolf] team, in which case they would have the ability to talk off thread.  This looks like an attempt to throw suspicion onto Darthe.  Gives me no read on Darthe - gambits are always popular - but very scummy from Arsis). Wombat votes Nyn for ... thin reasons. Pressure?  

 

At this point, my scum reads are Andrej, Thane, Arsis, and Sili, with Arsis closing in on Thane for the second spot.  Darthe is dropping off the list of top suspects but still leaning scum.  Town reads are unchanged, except Verb's reaction to my vote for Sili raises questions given Sili's spot on my list.

 

 

Page 21: Arsis says he had a town read on Darthe until the "coaching" post.  Nyn refuses to be pushed (+1).  Arsis argues Darthe is "providing cover for Sili in the guise of teaching" - which again makes no sense since Darthe was the one who called out the issue he'd be "covering" for in the first place.  (-5). Sili deflects Arsis as "cute".  Arsis votes Nyn as his "biggest scum read".  Sili follows.  Stelio pops up, acknowledges his quietness, disappears again.  [Am I going to be the first to point out his initials are SK?]  

 

Arsis creeps up the list.  Interaction between Arsis and Sili is interesting.

 

Page 22: I call out VERBarm for defending Sili, explain why even town NKs are good lynches (this, btw, is a deliberately BS explanation.  Townie Vigs should simply holster early in the game and shoot with more information later.  But given the reaction to my vote on Sili, I can't back away just yet).  Darthe asks Yates for thoughts on me, Wombat, DesLami & VerBarm (@ Darthe why Yates?  Why that group?).  Yates thinks I'm using old-school mafia logic that will make me read as scum (when did logic become a scum-tell??).  Has a Wombat read (overzealous town or scum) that I don't see at all - Yates, why?- DesLami/VerBarm reading town (in parts).  Gives his lynch/no lynch list.  Informative post that doesn't finger anyone as potential mafia ... a very safe scum move (-1).  Andrej and Hallia show up for a moment.  Hallia vows she can contribute ... then doesn't.  Des calls out Thane for taking "soft stances", runs a mini-case on him (+1).  DESLami continues with thoughts on Nyn, Stelio, Arsis.  All reasonable reads.  Liking these posts (+1).  Arsis immediately defends.

 

Page 23: Andrej is back, and defensive. DESlami posts thoughts on Arsis, Sili, Darthe (begins the tunneling we'll get to later).  Andrej also reacts negatively to my vote on Sili.  Des and Arsis argue about whether the push on Thane was serious.  Nyn posts town reads on DesLami, Wombat, Thane, not so much on VerBarm.  Another solid post.  DESlami notes Darthe's defense of Sili, and opportunistic Arsis/Sili votes on Nyn.  Good calls all around (+1).  Thane votes Sili as being "off".  DESlami posts his reads - a solid scum-hunting post here.  Then again, he also calls out Darthe as "coaching to play off coaching in the w/w thread" - which again makes no sense.  Nobody would know about coaching in the w/w thread if it was happening, and Darthe called out the very issue he then "coached" on ... a very, very convoluted theory.  First sign of tunnelling on Darthe?  Then votes Arsis.  Sili reacts defensively to Thane's vote (-1). Sili defends his "opportunistic vote" as "not mattering this early", then says he's spread "too thin" and that's why he's off.

 

Thane moving down the list.  Sili moving up.  Liking DesLami as solid town. Have to catch a train, will pick this back up later   

 

 

  On 11/12/2014 at 4:53 AM, Kivam said:

RECAP

 

Page 24: Thane calls out Sili for over-defensiveness (+1). Sili responds by apologizing.  Scum caught and correcting, or town caught and correcting? Fits either way.  Null. Dice brings back the Yates 3 Amigos, and we're off again.  [For the record, amigos: If you're ever scum with me and you are holding back out of a sense of outgame honor, I will NK you myself and dance on your grave; failing to play the game to your fullest with all the tools at your disposal dishonors the game, pisses on the other players, and stabs the mod in the back.  Better just not to sign up for any game the "guy you won't lie to" is in. And that's all I have to say about that].  Wes shows up and starts playing.  Agree on just about all his points.  No, actually, on all of them. Except what the hell is HWSIDI? (How would scum ....?).  DESlami begins Mafiasplaining Yates' play ... odd, that.  DESlami also has no idea what Wes meant about Salami, Darthe and Wombat [Des - Salami's post was an open invitation for reactions. Darthe and Wombat pounced, from opposite directions, which is a good catch by Wes.  Given my read on Wombat ... that doesn't say good things about Darthe].  More Yates, and Wes and I kick back in our rocking chairs and talk about how the old days were better.  DESlami gets my pop quiz almost right - on Day 1, the goal is information, period. Catching scum day 1 is a bonus to be hoped for but not really expected, and should barely drive activity.

 

Page 25: Darthe & Des begin their tunnel dance - Darthe plays the "I know you're coming at me but I bet you're town" card (-1).  Wes teaches Des a thing or two about puzzling, calls him out for brow-beating Dice for not understanding Yates' "seer cover" play.  DESlami launches at Darthe with both barrels for discrediting/deflecting.  Darthe denies feeling serious or weary, while wearing a weary and serious Ruxin avatar.  Cognitive dissonance abounds.    DESlami denies Wes' criticisms, and the EMO begins.  Wes notes Darthe's martyr/saint play, smells mafia (+1). Tunnel dancing again. Darthe claims Seer, says Wes is town.  Darthe says Salami brings Des down, and he and Salami go back and forth on that.  Verbal defends his defense, accuses me of twisting his defense to look like a defense (which it was) (-5). I respond. DESlami admits he tunnels people, says when he's right it will be good for town (a tautology that is completely useless).  Notes Wes "evading" his question about that "make hay" paragraph (which Wes acknowledged earlier, and explained why he wasn't answering).  All of this reads more as clueless townie than scum by DESlami.  More Yates-gate.

 

Darthe moving back up the list.  Thane moving down. Sili and Andrej holding steady.

 

Page 26: FFS. More Yates-gate.  None of you are saying anything new, so why is this still being talked about?  One thing to reference it in a vote (I found XYZ a scummy move, so vote Yates), but you're analyzing it like you're pulling new insight from it while not voting, and you aren't.  This starts to become a convenient place for scum to hide with filler posts that don't add information, and that's true whether Yates is scum or not.  So ... Nyn, Dice, everyone else still analyzing this mess are raising my radar a bit.  Darthe votes Yates for "belaboring" the point ... Yes!  Opportunistic, though.  Rest of the page is either about tunneling or Yates.  FML.

 

Page 27: Darthe explains his "yes, if I'm scum, it's good for town" to DesLAMI.  How does anyone not get what he was saying there? Darthe is on the scummy side of my ledger, but those posts aren't why; that's just unassailable logic (tunneling at scum is good for town. tunneling at townies is bad for town. Unless you know for a fact who you are tunneling on, tunneling is a bad idea.  Nothing wrong with putting pressure on, but keep your eyes and reads open, and if you think you've nailed scum D1, remember that you're probably wrong).  Wes makes the same point, concisely, prods at Des.   More Yates analysis from Wes, but with something new thrown in - an association with DESlami.  Absurd that he's the only one of the hundred people talking about Yates' play to note this.  Sili defends Yates' play as consistent with Marlfox, then claims Seer with a town view on Nyn.  Nyn and Thane don't buy it.  Wombat has DES pegged as town by Page 23.

 

Page 28: Arsis has caught up, claims Wes is "lock town" or the best player he's ever seen (Wes is playing  a very townsided game, but like me, that's a null tell.  We'll both come across strongly pro-town whether we're town [obviously] or scum, which is why things like "tonereading" strike me as incredibly short-sighted; you're just begging to be taken for a ride, and the right player will take that invite and laugh all the way to the win).  Has DESlami slightly town, Yates and Darthe scum, says Nyn isn't playing and is posting no content (which is blatantly false).  Only read I'm with him on is Darthe; he has Wes' play pegged but is drawing conclusions way too strongly from that evidence.  More Tunnel-gate. Wombat makes my point about in-game integrity, has a town read on Yates, Dice, and ... someone else, unclear who ("all three of you").  RECAP part 1 shows up.  Songstress returns.  Sili says he thinks "PDR" (Pirate Dread Roberts?) is town because scum would "enable" DESlami.  Nyn is calm, cool and collected in response to Arsis (+1).  Wombat gets the quiz right.  Songstress agrees with DESlami's reads. Very townie post from her here. Then she calls out Sili on "my vote doesn't matter".  DES goes full EMO on DPR [Des - completely out of game, admin note here: relax. What happens in the game stays in the game, and Wes is too good a player to be dropping personal ish in here.  So deep breath, and carry on]

 

Page 29: Wombat still has a strong town read on Des, but it's dropping.  Questions Thane painting cover as counterclaims, says he viewed Hally and got villager.  Votes Arsis, interested in "developing [my] reads" - you and me both. Heh.   Sili begins his "woe is me" defense of "my vote doesn't matter".  Darthe agrees with Wombat on Thane.  More tunnelgate from Des, reads Yates as town based on Darthe pushing a Yates lynch. 

 

Page 30: DES calls Sili out for woe-is-me-ing.  Wombat questions how I could scumread Andrej and Thane but vote with them (and this is why I answered the way I did, btw - at this point, Thane is reading townsided and being in with Andrej on a lynch of a potential teammate (if that's where I end up) doesn't bother me, especially since my reads could be completely wrong).  Krak asks Nyn for thoughts in a vaguely dirty manner.  Wombat calls Thane out for contentless posts.  A valid complaint, but FWIW when he is posting content he's reading as town to me.  Thane identifies his suspect list: Sili, Arsis, Darthe.  Matches mine, confirming he's town. 

 

 

  On 11/12/2014 at 4:40 PM, Kivam said:

RECAP

 

Page 31: Cass shows up again, posts her introduction.  Finally, some content.  (As we've seen, that won't be an issue moving forward - and note to Cass: this was the post I referred to as "nothing", not your introduction.  Was your mistake a slip or misdirection?).  Arsis hardcore deflects DESlami's read with pure meta (-1).  Thane pokes at Arsis.  Sili continues his Emo defense, reaches out to Thane. Sili defends himself from a town-cred claim by Thane by repeating that seer cover is null.  (I can't believe we're still talking about this).  RECAP, part 2: lots of connections for Thane and Arsis through that recap, btw.  DESlami smacks Sili around a bit for his play (yeah, I'd call this post "shaming").  Thane likes the way I post [note to Thane: Thanks, but see my recent post to Cass for how you should treat my posts].  VerBARM backs Songstress, jumps on Sili a bit.  Sili has a terrible habit of quoting people without the link or name of the person he's quoting - please change that - defends his play, counterattacks.  Wombat and Songstress push Sili, then DESlami piles on ... the ease with which Sili is taking heat causes me some concern; doesn't seem like anyone is all that interested in saving him from it (other than VERBarm earlier), though none of the heat is translating into votes.  Wonder what would happen if it did...

 

Page 32: Salami agrees with Des' DESLAMI reads. (Oy. Hydras hurt my head). Sili votes Andrej for "pinging him early"; can't argue with the read, but no detail given, and while being pushed himself and after I've already posted my case/read on Andrej?  Reads as deflection or inoculation, though that may be because I've been reading both Sili and Andrej as scummy already.  I point out that Sili's initial comment (early vote is not one to sweat) is basically true.  Nyn says Thane is generally scummy as a townie - have I mentioned that I hate meta?  Also, interesting given her stance earlier in the thread that she would judge his play based on this game alone - seems inconsistent.  Nyn?. VerBARM points out that Sili's vote is an opportunistic OMGUS. Krak posts no content, asks for content from others. VerBARM calls him out on it (+1).  Nyn & Krak spiral off into yet more awesome double entendres.  Krak says he'll post more content after he gets off work - don't remember him following through, though.  

 

Page 33: Barm provides a vote/activity check.  DESlami defends the emo.  (This reads genuine to me).  Dice shows up, talks Yates, unvotes Cass because she "feels natural" (*headdesk*).  Nyn asks Sili for his reads.  DesLAMI says Cass' post couldn't have come from a wolf (huh?).  Krak asks why Dice explained the unvote (if he didn't, we'd have asked, no?).  Dice denies explaining the unvote (-1.  What?  You did. It was right there.  My Recap Part 3 ... interesting, Sili voted Andrej here too, before my read was posted, but why the revote on p. 32?  Curiouser and curiouser.  Darthe likes Yates for scum.  

 

Page 34: DESlami says he thinks Wes is scum because he's being cryptic (heh), Darthe is lying about the seer claim.  "Townies explain things" - no.  Townies only explain things when leaving them unexplained can't help develop information.  DESlami identifies seer cover as a null tell - too easy for scum to do for town cred.  Sili says he'll be working off the OMGUS stigma for a while, posts his reads which are generally decent, though I disagree on some of them.  Darthe makes an odd point to DESlami re his seer claim (if DESlami is reading these claims as mainly cover, Darthe & Wes wouldn't have to be a scum team for Wes to be scum).  DESlami calls him out for it (+1).  Darthe posts reads ... can't tell who he has as town and who as scum, since it's just lists without headings.  More Darthe-Des back and forth, with Des the clear winner.  Darthe moving back towards a scum shade for me.  Leelou puts in an appearance - not a fan of Darthe.  (+1).  Darthe defends some more.  Barm asks Leelou for her reasoning.

 

Recaps on hold due to work, but right now, my top 4 for scum are Andrej, Arsis, Sili, and Darthe.  Sili, Arsis, and Darthe probably have the most connections in that "associative cloud" Stelio was talking about (my approach as well) which is why I'm pretty well locked into picking one of those 3 for D1 lynch (pending the last few pages of recap), despite having Andrej as my scummiest overall.

[Sili Quirrels]

nice wim

[TheRagnarok]

  On 11/13/2014 at 3:47 AM, Sili Quirrels said:

Nice response.

 

 

 

  On 11/13/2014 at 3:42 AM, TheRagnarok said:

You should give up on trying to read me.

 

I'm skeptical.

 

Post more please. I want to have more to work with so I don't misread you.

I will. Don't worry.

[Kivam]

After reading through those recaps, Sili is the best information lynch, IMO.  The Sili-Darthe-Andrej interaction in the teen pages is rich in data to mine, especially when Sili votes Wombat (triggers an attack by VerBarm and a defense by Leelou).  So is the Sili-Arsis-Darthe-DesLami dustup (re coaching) in the late teens to the mid-twenties.  Also connections to Yates, Thane, and myself.  He's at the center of a lot of tangles, and that "Andrej is suspicious so vote Wombat" interaction, plus his immediate flight from that when he's called on it, has me thinking his play is more likely scum badly faking town than town badly playing town, which means the info could be very useful (if Sili is scum, he doesn't seem like the type of player who would have left a bunch of false trails).

 

The interesting thing, to me, is that I started pushing Sili on a deliberately BS case to see if anyone opportunistically followed along, but the reaction, and the reread, has actually convinced me that he's the best lynch for the day (at least through page 34).

[WWWwombat]

I was pretty sure you were reaction testing, Kivs.  I very cryptically alluded to it at one point.  What makes you think the reactions mean Sili is scum?

 

[unvote]

 

Rereading the thread atm cuz I can't sleep.  Through p. 9 so far.

[Sili Quirrels]

  On 11/13/2014 at 4:55 AM, Kivam said:

After reading through those recaps, Sili is the best information lynch, IMO.  The Sili-Darthe-Andrej interaction in the teen pages is rich in data to mine, especially when Sili votes Wombat (triggers an attack by VerBarm and a defense by Leelou).  So is the Sili-Arsis-Darthe-DesLami dustup (re coaching) in the late teens to the mid-twenties.  Also connections to Yates, Thane, and myself.  He's at the center of a lot of tangles, and that "Andrej is suspicious so vote Wombat" interaction, plus his immediate flight from that when he's called on it, has me thinking his play is more likely scum badly faking town than town badly playing town, which means the info could be very useful (if Sili is scum, he doesn't seem like the type of player who would have left a bunch of false trails).

 

The interesting thing, to me, is that I started pushing Sili on a deliberately BS case to see if anyone opportunistically followed along, but the reaction, and the reread, has actually convinced me that he's the best lynch for the day (at least through page 34).

if you kill me for information village better win.

 

i'm a trap lynch. no scum in their right minds would commit to lynching me just because the wagon had weight. They would talk about the possibility, and deliberate, then a couple would ride the wagon at the end of the day.

[Kivam]

  On 11/13/2014 at 4:59 AM, WWWwombat said:

I was pretty sure you were reaction testing, Kivs.  I very cryptically alluded to it at one point.  What makes you think the reactions mean Sili is scum?

 

[unvote]

 

Rereading the thread atm cuz I can't sleep.  Through p. 9 so far.

 

It isn't actually the lack of reactions that lead me to think Sili is scummy (though that would certainly explain a lack of opportunistic lynchery from scum, along with seeing through the play).  It's primarily his vote on you while proclaiming suspicion of Andrej, then the rapid walkback when called on it ("who said I want to lynch him").  Sets off alarms for bad scum play ("oops, I got caught pushing for something I can't defend, what can I say to not seem scummy?!") and doesn't really have a pro-town analog (there's no pro-town reason to vote for someone you don't want lynched except to pressure/reaction test, and that can't be done if you announce the goal within 5 posts).  Add in the interaction webs I pointed out - particularly with Andrej, given the rhetoric/suspicion:voting ratio (i.e. lots of talk about how scummy he found Andrej, but no actual vote) and I'd really like to know if he actually is scum, because if so, it could lead to a roll-up of one or two others.  And if he's town, it turns down the temperature a bit for me on Andrej, since that "clumsy distancing" vibe is a big part of my qualms there.

 

[Sili Quirrels]

I'm laughing inside. Seriously.

 

Every game I'm in it's the same. In the first 24 or 48 hours I'm not immersed in the game, so I flop around and try to get engaged. Messing around with votes and pushes is a facet of this, and I've done it like 3 times now. This time it was a little excessive because of reasons, but god sakes that ain't a reason to lynch someone. If I were scum I'd be incredibly careful and try to control thread flow, not spamming votes left and right.

 

If you lynch me, lynch me for information, and win with it please.

[Sili Quirrels]

I'll amend that. I've done it 4 times of my 6 games. And in all 6 games I've randed town.

[Thane Vakarian]

  On 11/12/2014 at 7:20 PM, Kivam said:

 

  On 11/12/2014 at 7:14 PM, Thane Vakarian said:

i'll call it a night, police escorts en route, so i need full attention at work.

 

Play nice all, and cyas tomorrow.

 

Scum?

 

What do you do, Thane?

 

no details, but i work closely with the federal police insecurity matters

 

and, here, gonna catch up

[WWWwombat]

  On 11/13/2014 at 4:55 AM, Kivam said:

After reading through those recaps, Sili is the best information lynch, IMO.  The Sili-Darthe-Andrej interaction in the teen pages is rich in data to mine, especially when Sili votes Wombat (triggers an attack by VerBarm and a defense by Leelou).  So is the Sili-Arsis-Darthe-DesLami dustup (re coaching) in the late teens to the mid-twenties.  Also connections to Yates, Thane, and myself.  He's at the center of a lot of tangles, and that "Andrej is suspicious so vote Wombat" interaction, plus his immediate flight from that when he's called on it, has me thinking his play is more likely scum badly faking town than town badly playing town, which means the info could be very useful (if Sili is scum, he doesn't seem like the type of player who would have left a bunch of false trails).

 

The interesting thing, to me, is that I started pushing Sili on a deliberately BS case to see if anyone opportunistically followed along, but the reaction, and the reread, has actually convinced me that he's the best lynch for the day (at least through page 34).

 

Just got through p. 21.  I see what you're saying about the coaching dust-up.  Also, a lot of Sili's pushes up to 21 feel like him trying to lay false trails.  On reread, Darthe actually looks pretty good up to 21.

[WWWwombat]

[v]##Sili[/v]

[Sili Quirrels]

  On 11/13/2014 at 7:04 AM, WWWwombat said:

 

  On 11/13/2014 at 4:55 AM, Kivam said:

After reading through those recaps, Sili is the best information lynch, IMO.  The Sili-Darthe-Andrej interaction in the teen pages is rich in data to mine, especially when Sili votes Wombat (triggers an attack by VerBarm and a defense by Leelou).  So is the Sili-Arsis-Darthe-DesLami dustup (re coaching) in the late teens to the mid-twenties.  Also connections to Yates, Thane, and myself.  He's at the center of a lot of tangles, and that "Andrej is suspicious so vote Wombat" interaction, plus his immediate flight from that when he's called on it, has me thinking his play is more likely scum badly faking town than town badly playing town, which means the info could be very useful (if Sili is scum, he doesn't seem like the type of player who would have left a bunch of false trails).

 

The interesting thing, to me, is that I started pushing Sili on a deliberately BS case to see if anyone opportunistically followed along, but the reaction, and the reread, has actually convinced me that he's the best lynch for the day (at least through page 34).

 

Just got through p. 21.  I see what you're saying about the coaching dust-up.  Also, a lot of Sili's pushes up to 21 feel like him trying to lay false trails.  On reread, Darthe actually looks pretty good up to 21.

 

It could be, if I was an idiot, but they probably aren't. this isn't my first rodeo around these parts, and i wouldn't play scum like i was going to lose.

[Andrej]

  On 11/13/2014 at 4:55 AM, Kivam said:

The interesting thing, to me, is that I started pushing Sili on a deliberately BS case to see if anyone opportunistically followed along, but the reaction, and the reread, has actually convinced me that he's the best lynch for the day (at least through page 34).

 

I see where Despot gets it from now.

 

Could you elaborate on what things you caught from the reaction test? I think the logic you used was fairly bad and in the end just made you look either extremely rusty or actually scummy.

[Andrej]

  On 11/13/2014 at 5:23 AM, Kivam said:

 

  On 11/13/2014 at 4:59 AM, WWWwombat said:

I was pretty sure you were reaction testing, Kivs.  I very cryptically alluded to it at one point.  What makes you think the reactions mean Sili is scum?

 

[unvote]

 

Rereading the thread atm cuz I can't sleep.  Through p. 9 so far.

 

It isn't actually the lack of reactions that lead me to think Sili is scummy (though that would certainly explain a lack of opportunistic lynchery from scum, along with seeing through the play).  It's primarily his vote on you while proclaiming suspicion of Andrej, then the rapid walkback when called on it ("who said I want to lynch him").  Sets off alarms for bad scum play ("oops, I got caught pushing for something I can't defend, what can I say to not seem scummy?!") and doesn't really have a pro-town analog (there's no pro-town reason to vote for someone you don't want lynched except to pressure/reaction test, and that can't be done if you announce the goal within 5 posts).  Add in the interaction webs I pointed out - particularly with Andrej, given the rhetoric/suspicion:voting ratio (i.e. lots of talk about how scummy he found Andrej, but no actual vote) and I'd really like to know if he actually is scum, because if so, it could lead to a roll-up of one or two others.  And if he's town, it turns down the temperature a bit for me on Andrej, since that "clumsy distancing" vibe is a big part of my qualms there.

 

This is also patently false. I think Sili maybe mentioned me in a handful of posts in the beginning and did actually vote me at one point before spamming onto other wagons. So the ratio is more like 3-4:1

[Sili Quirrels]

In my opinion, a tactic that catches short-sighted wolves in the first couple days isn't something you should be counting on.

 

/shrug.

[Andrej]

  On 11/12/2014 at 10:07 PM, Cass said:

@AJ – Hi :) your post 1069 and the comment that I’m susceptible for buddying, see above *g* Do you have any favourites for scum at this point (and why – with whatever it is you’re using for proof?). I’m not sure where I stand on you. Also, for whatever it’s worth on Dice and his content being low – I agree, although I’m leaning towards not making an issue of it yet because for all my recent activity I’m finding the timezone thing pretty hard so far (everything picks up somewhere around our midnight), and he’s an hour ahead of me. I’m not pushing it because as long as I’ve known him, he religiously goes to bed at 10pm.

 

I don't have any particularly strong favorites for wolves, no. I have a few that I'm suspect of and would be happy to support lynching, but for the most part a lot of my D1 consists of 1) finding/acknowledging other townies to help narrow my list of suspects to as small a list as possible and 2) mostly musing about things that I find odd/suspicious until I have more solid information in the way of coroners to solidify links/voting patterns, etc. I have aggressive tendencies at times but I've come back from that a bit and generally have been busier this past week so I haven't exactly been present in thread that much and my grasp on the game isn't incredibly firm yet. As far as my suspects I think any of Sili/Pral/Kivam would be good lynches. Dice is still an outlier but certainly inside of his wolf range at this point in the game.

 

The point I was making on Dice isn't just that his content is low, I can understand a busy life and I'm aware of the time zone difference. I have a fair amount of experience with him and we both are generally good at reading each other. I haven't really seen any posts from him yet this game (his last one was a bit better) that I think he couldn't make as a wolf. He also tends to be less active and hide more as scum, but that might be slightly outdated meta because I haven't seen him as a wolf in quite a while.

[Andrej]

Sili I'll chuckle to myself if I nailed you for your OP.

 

How are your reads shaping up? Spit some truth ITT if you're a villager

[Sili Quirrels]

ugh. haven't seen him as one in a while huh.

 

...

 

ya okay just going to ignore that.

[Andrej]

Are you making a point Sili?

 

Perhaps directness should be something you start to work on to express yourself better. Your statements come across ambiguous and guarded when you speak like that.

 

Yes - I haven't seen Dice as a wolf in a while. iirc the last time was Salami's Hitchhikers game and that was several months ago. Since then we have been villagers together quite a lot and have successfully read each other in those games. I'm not getting that vibe here.

[Thane Vakarian]

the entire DPR/Des thing is annoying to read over and over again. But, i have seen Des focus on specific players from early D1 on in other games. 

 

I'm hesitating a bit. I'm still waiting (like everybody is) on Pral's catch up post. Lack of posts, doesn't look good. On the other hand, i still think that Sili would make a good lynch. I'm not convinced that he actually is town. Should he fliptown, yes, it would give info, but yeah, one less townie... (i don't like mislynching)

[Andrej]

@Kivam - Do you actually ever plan on responding to the posts I made regarding your scum read on me? I dislike how you continue listing me as one of your top suspects but have failed to interact with me directly this game.

[Sili Quirrels]

  On 11/13/2014 at 7:28 AM, Andrej said:

Sili I'll chuckle to myself if I nailed you for your OP.

 

How are your reads shaping up? Spit some truth ITT if you're a villager

Unfortunately not.

 

If it helps town, always. I think cass, desp, wombat, and various others like darthe and thane are town mostly. i need thane to be more active to settle on him however.

 

your recent gameplay has been methodical and straight laced. i would be a little surprised if you flipped wolfpack.

 

ragnarok seems cautious. seems like the way he nudged my wagon with omgus vibes is a set up for town cred when i flip.

 

barm is rusty, perhaps. i'll leave it at that since i have't gotten a feel for him yet.

 

pirate is edgy. if he's town i imagine the wolfpack will start testing the water for a mislynch come day 3 or 4.

 

i don't know what's up with arsis, so i'd feel guilty if we lynch pral day 1.

[Andrej]

  On 11/12/2014 at 12:53 AM, Andrej said:

 

  On 11/11/2014 at 3:50 PM, Kivam said:

...

 

Andrej tries to shift the discussion of Supgate back to Leelou (-1,000,000!  Super ping-y to me).

 

...

 

Andrej votes Sili out of nowhere.  ANDREJ - What was up with that? Ah. Next post (that whole thoughts as we go thing kills me again) - says the random (joke?) vote on Thane rubs him the wrong way.  Do not like this post at all. 

 

First bit - I think you're misunderstanding the intent of my question there. It was framed in a certain way, yeah, but the purpose was to make those who were questioning/discussing with (Darthe/Barm) Leelou of her neutral post statement that it was kind of a silly thing to focus on. I reiterate this several times in later posts that I thought her reaction was more of a villager tell than anything else which was kind of the point to my question.

 

Here's the progression:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

  On 11/10/2014 at 2:23 PM, Andrej said:

Do you guys think as a wolf Leelou would be more likely to call a post neutral or accept the villagery praise for it?

 

The 'redirection' that you are taking so much offense to. The question was intended to be pointed, yes, but not in a manner to make Leelou look bad. If anything, you could say I was defending her here so the basis of your scum read is already wrong.

 

  On 11/10/2014 at 2:30 PM, Andrej said:

Barm's question to Leelou was odd if you apply it to the second post I made.

 

Second post is quoted above ^

 

  On 11/10/2014 at 3:38 PM, Andrej said:

 

  On 11/10/2014 at 2:35 PM, Yates. said:

 

  On 11/10/2014 at 2:23 PM, Andrej said:

Do you guys think as a wolf Leelou would be more likely to call a post neutral or accept the villagery praise for it?

She would call it like she sees it. You can learn a lot from a hydra.

Cool, I'll take that into consideration. In a vacuum I think that sort of thing is more villagery than anything though.

 

Further explanation from me describing how I found Leelou saying the post wasn't alignment indicative to be more of a positive than negative sign.

 

  On 11/10/2014 at 8:26 PM, Andrej said:

@Darthe - I just found his line of questioning odd for a behavior I think would be more heavily associated with a villager mindset. I don't really see wolves discrediting easy townie brownies

 

My response to Darthe regarding Barm, which you mentioned in another one of your posts.

 

 

 

 

Also - as far as you not liking my post there isn't much else I can say to you about that besides 'too bad', I guess. Do you think the logic behind my vote was bad? Did you misunderstand or misinterpret somehow? At the moment I don't really like the commentary you're making towards me because I don't think it's very factual or accurate to how events actually unfolded. 

 

QFE.