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[Standard] 11/10 Top Tier Vanilla+ Game Thread

Tommyrod

By Tommyrod
in DM Mafia Games

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Cass Master

Cass

Posted
Posted

*hands out chill pills*

 

Happy Weekend Everybody!

 

C'mon team, we have some super wily wilves to catch...

 

Darthe, any reasons besides that last post and early inactivity for voting Pral? I'm not sure I got why that post was so out of character for this point in the game (I thought his last couple of posts showed similar insight?)

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Cass Master

Cass

Posted
Posted

*hands out chill pills*

 

Happy Weekend Everybody!

 

C'mon team, we have some super wily wilves to catch...

 

Darthe, any reasons besides that last post and early inactivity for voting Pral? I'm not sure I got why that post was so out of character for this point in the game (I thought his last couple of posts showed similar insight?)

hazelkrs1 Spam Master

hazelkrs1

Posted
Posted

Okay so just some sorta rambly thoughts from last few pages-

 

So first off AJ and Nyn were by biggest townreads, so sucks seeing them go. Wah wah I know, but really, that seriously hurts my POE. Since they're gone, I'm now going to roll with Pray and Dice as my top townies actually. Pray by a long shot, he's towntelling all over the place, he's LOCK CLEAR. Dice is a recent tone read... but for some reason my gut is telling me strongly to stick with that read. Plus, he DID seem likely to be town because of Yates' spew earlier in the game, so yeah. The crazy thing is I want to add Thane to this group as well, I just feel he seems to be legitimately trying to figure stuff out. He isn't hedging tho when I would expect scum!Thane to at this point either, he's going out on limbs, etc.

 

The crazy thing is the name that's NOT on that list, and I hate it but well, I would have expected with two antitown kills last night, one of them would have gone on the cop clear. Her activity has also not been good at all lately, making me worried she's a GFSK that is going to coast on her cleared name now. Look, it's tinfoil, but well it can't really be avoided imo. Wouldn't lynch her today but I can't quite add her to the POE.

 

Someone I am switching gears on a lot is Cass. She has been dropping some BIG TIME scumtells lately. A lot of whyme fryme (for Cass: whyme fryme is when someone seems to get overly defensive about being focused on - "Why me?" so it's likely because they are more worried about self-preservation than actually helping town, so fry them), her reads kind of split all over the place (I don't mean she's inconsistent per se, she's just making too big a deal about kind of half-suspecting almost EVERYONE), but the biggest thing I saw from her that made me think she might be scum is when she quoted a couple of Wombat posts and asked if they were implying to shoot AJ... not only was that a TERRIBLE conclusion to make off those posts, it also REEKED of opportunism. Could have been PR directing too. Then there's her VT claim, the way she dropped it initially was scummy, the way she kept trying to reinforce how "VT" she was was scummier, and the way she wifom-defended her claim was worst ("would Manbat have let me claim VT like that?"). There's also a small thing but might as well mention it - she told Nyn "good shooting" after Nyn flipped, but town wouldn't necessarily know she shot well... seemed like a potential TMI slip perhaps...

 

As for Tress, meh I've seen more townie-looking posts from her lately, but kinda worried she just bucked up after being down about her team being down so much at first. And again, I STILL didn't like her vote on D1 or her reaction after I called out said vote. But... fwiw Tress is prob only 3rd on my scum list now.

 

Funny thing is who is first on my scum list now: DERFFFFF. I don't think he's mafia, but I DO think he's SK. This is slightly associative (he's pushing against my top two town reads, also pushed heavily against Nyn who was LOCK CLEAR for me) but his pushes also don't make any sense to me whatsoever, and furthermore he keeps pushing those reads somewhat awkwardly even when his targets respond reasonably or town-like. I'm also remembering his early deflection of me, and general defensiveness and odd tone early on in the game. I think he recovered fairly well by starting to scumhunt ITT, and got lucky in pushing on Kivam D2. Now it seems like he's trying to buddy Csarmi and me a bit, and trying to become town leader to remove himself from suspicion further.

 

STRONG scum read on Derf now.

 

[v]##Darthe[/v]

hazelkrs1 Spam Master

hazelkrs1

Posted
Posted

Fwiw I DEF didn't like Pray saying last night's kills were good for town. First of all, he's dead wrong, cause as Salami pointed out losing named townies sucks period. Could have potentially staved off a mislynch. Then there's the fact that there are DEFINITELY two antitown kills still in contention, whereas there is only ONE town lynch per day. So losing another town directed kill is just bad for town period. He used numbers to try and back his argument up, but fact is without that extra town directed kill there is MUCH higher chance of us losing another 2 townies next night phase, and very little chance of any scum dying. So if our lynch misses today, even if we would have gotten some info from that lynch to help direct a Vig shot, we won't be able to use that now, and could enter the next day in even worse shape for town since scum would likely go for towniest townies.

 

Anyways, I'm chalking it up to Pray having very little confidence in other townsided killers, because the way he has shown willingness to readjust reads and display good and comprehensive thread recall lately just looks absurdly town for him.

hazelkrs1 Spam Master

hazelkrs1

Posted
Posted
  On 11/22/2014 at 10:20 AM, Cass said:

Hey Csarm, I guess because it ended up in the best interests of Town? Am I missing something there?

 

He's basically asking why you seemed to KNOW Nyn shot Krak N2, when town wouldn't know such thing.

 

It's what's known as a "TMI slip". As in, you had Too Much Information. As in, if you were mafia and knew who yall shot, you prob would have had a better idea who shot Krak, Nyn or SK.

 

The other side of this is that you might not have even been dropping a TMI thing, but just told Nyn "good shooting" cause you thought that's what a townie would say there.

 

The thing I wanna know is what the heck is going on, why you're all over the place with your reads, why you feel the need to over-defend you and your reads and your voting history so much, and why you tried to suggest that Wombat wanted people to shoot AJ

csarmi Spam Master

csarmi

Posted
Posted
  On 11/22/2014 at 10:20 AM, Cass said:

Hey Csarm, I guess because it ended up in the best interests of Town? Am I missing something there?

Or is it that you shot Verb personally so you KNOW the vig shot wasn't him (it couldn't be Wombat obviously).

csarmi Spam Master

csarmi

Posted
Posted

Thane didnt do anything since D1 but tone says town to me too.

 

Unfortunately i agree on Hally. Sorry love you are becoming a GOAT player.

 

I think Derf is town. Despo has read this thread much more closely so i shall defer to him tho.

 

I think Cass slipped. I gotta admit i skimmed 2/3 of her posts cause wordy. Great tone early. I could buy her being the SK more easily than scum.

Cass Master

Cass

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@ Des - I do feel all over the place right now. TBH I've been completely thrown since Wom and DPR flipped Town. My reads on them were way off, as I honestly didn't understand the 'town' mentality behind the perceived scorn and skipping questions and such. Still don't really, except maybe in Wom's case as Seer trying to keep wolves off his back.

 

The good shooting thing @ Nyn was just a random thought, and something I thought we should say. I just feel we probably owe our vigs a fair bit in this game, and whilst I can't confirm anything, it makes sense to me that it was a vig and not a SK shot that took out Krak (unless the SK didn't think Kiv was wolf, I spose that works too?). 

 

I dunno. The 'quietness' of players (especially Pral, Hallia, Dice, Tress and until he was flipped, Rags) are throwing me off big time too, since I don't know them and have very little to analyse on them in the context of this game. I basically feel like I'm right back at the beginning and that we're shooting in the dark. I genuinely thought that thing from Wom was some convoluted way of asking the vig to shoot AJ, and that, coupled with all the reasons I mentioned before were the strongest thing I had to go on against anybody left. If he hadn't been NK'd I'd still be pushing and voting for him now.

 

I'm actually feeling rather despondent about this all now, I thought we were narrowing it down. Contrary to having TMI, I feel like I have nothing to go on, and I don't know where to go from here. I do feel the need to defend myself and my reads (for one, that's just my personality and two, I realise the perilous position I'm in when I make decisions that flip around to be perfectly silly/untimely mistakes in hindsight. Both of these have only gotten worse since Kiv etc. planted the 'she's probably working with scum' seed.

Cass Master

Cass

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  On 11/11/2014 at 3:58 PM, Songstress said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I want to start off by saying I'm having a pretty serious case of mindmeld with Despo today, which used to be a flashing red light sign.

 

Des, remember back in the good old days when the only way I knew you were town was if you said something outrageously slap-me-in-the-face scummy that made me want to lynch you pronto, and if I found myself nodding and agreeing with you you were almost certainly scum?  I really hope you haven't reverted to your old ways, because i'm liking how you're thinking overall so far.

 

I'm less confident on my reads than this POE, but find myself agreeing with many of them - the blues especially.  On the scum lean end of things, I am most in agreement with Sili, the others I am not sure enough to categorize without a full reread, and a lot more thinking.

 

 

 

Tress, how you feeling about Despo and the way you're reading him now?

hazelkrs1 Spam Master

hazelkrs1

Posted
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Some other things I forgot to mention btw:

 

Didn't like how much Tress was hedging and fencesitting about everyone a few pages back, but Cass is doing that much worse imo.

 

I also feel Cass is playing the "woe is me, I'm just a noobie vanilla town who doesn't know what I'm doing" card WAAAAAY too much of late. Didn't see her flying her indecision around much earlier on in the game.

Cass Master

Cass

Posted
Posted

@ Des, Really? You saw none of this?

 

  On 11/11/2014 at 4:51 PM, Cass said:

*Jumps back in, catches up (to page 24)*

 

It's been mentioned a couple of times now that I might be difficult to read and form opinions of 'cos I'm new and haven't provided much for others to go on yet, so I'm gonna jump in and try and address those issues real soon. I'll leave the complicated analyses/first impressions/gut reads/opinions of certain posts and things for tomorrow, sometime after I've had a decent sleep and can (hopefully) coordinate my hunches and gut feelings into sentences and formats that make sense/get me off your null lists.

 

For now I'll just start with introducing myself and ... stuff... so that y'all at have at least something to go by.

 

Importantly, I am really new to this. I know none of the unstated rules. Apart from a last-minute turbo game that mentorbat threw me into for training two days ago (yes, he really did (!) no, I did not do overly well, yes it was insanely fun  :biggrin: ), this is my first ever mafia game. I'm nervous.

 

Second thing is I thrive on a good mental challenge and I'm a bit of a perfectionist. I think it's going to be an annoying combination. I'm already over-analysing everything. EVERYTHING. I actually have notes :rolleyes:. And notes on my notes. And I get way too wordy, all the time. 

 

Third is I'm generally friendly and good for a laugh and it takes a lot to get me ruffled. If you're coming at me directly I'm fairly confident I'll be able to clear the air (come at me, bro!!). Hopefully my reads will be ok enough to move the game forward in time. But to this point it's been that first step, not knowing how to put myself out there to an unknown audience and manage to avoid possible mislynching due to reasons as 'stupid' as being new that has held me back... (What if I don't post anything and they think that I'm 'wilfing'? What if I post too much too soon and they think I'm trying something that I'm not? Who are these people? - when is too soon? - Are they playing for real yet, or not? Aaaaahhhh!) *g*  

 

My flippant approach yesterday (#126) (and earlier in the signup thread) was a bit of a flop at engaging real interaction with anyone I didn't know, hopefully this one and the (more game-theory-related) stuff tomorrow is enough to get the ball rolling - now that I can see beyond doubt that the game has got to the serious stuff, I'm looking forward to settling in and playing with y'all for real. And yes, I know, it's more about show than tell (Thanks, monstr  :wub:, I'll get to that part tomorrow).

 

In the meantime, Yates, Desp, thanks for voicing that I'm on your null lists and 'forcing' me to write this post.

 

Dice, *hugs*, you big blue cockroach (Aussie interstate rivalry for those who didn't know) - unvote me!!

 

 

You seemed to notice it here:

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  On 11/11/2014 at 6:45 PM, dicetosser1 said:

@csarmi

 

what to say    Cass loves RP, is normally playful and easy going. yes she is very much a perfectionist...shes currently studying a masters in paremedice "for the challenge" i believe she said.

 

i suxed her into this and chatted to her about how it works. I watched the turbo game   most of it live    she came to the right reads but just a little too late. I think she will have good instincts. the biggest problems i can see is nerves and being active. esp compared to how super active games have been. I got her in this cause it was sposed to be basic   well thats gone now.

 

 

that do ya?

 

 

  On 11/12/2014 at 12:18 PM, Cass said:

I'm here!

 

*Dances*

 

SHOW TIME!!

 

OK. I'm gonna post some of my early/'current' reads, along with some questions for Town at this point. I'd like to really encourage everyone who has played with the people I’m wary about – and those I’m not wary enough of - before to weigh in on this for me, because I think your meta on them will be pivotal to my decisions and the way I cast my votes, but I’m wary for what this means down the track if the majority of people who post replies are Wolf.

 

(I don’t think it’s worth dismissing this as me asking for people to baby me, either, since the way I see it, at this point the number of Town vastly outnumber the number of Wolves, and pooling our collective meta on everyone now is the best way to ensure what we’re reading isn’t building bias based on an over-representation of strategic Wolf...).

 

Here goes.

**Disclaimer: These are early reads and I’m not completely caught up yet. This is a work in progress but I thought it would be better to post now, holes and all, than wait and let my ‘non-contributions’ vibe grow.  My reads are not yet in any order and they’re (obviously) based on gut reactions to wording and timing at this point, rather than insights into implications on tells and the theories of how people tend to play the game. I’m hoping game progression and y’all can help me with that. Tips on how to be faster would also be appreciated. (Like, for example, is there a way to find a full list of posts from a single player in the thread? I’ve asked mentorbat but timezones are making that weirdly ineffective now). Anyway. Early thoughts(!) on some not all players  :smile:  

 

 

Yes. I realise that's a three paragraph introduction. I'm wordy. I warned you... :dry:

 

 

 

DICE

  Reveal hidden contents

 

KIVAM

I like the way Kivam posts. For someone with my lack of actual game experience, some of his/her natural reflections on game ‘events’ are very insightful, and, TBH, they make me feel safe, as if I am getting an idea of what is going on. However – I am not sure that I like his/her underlying tone. I understand (or have been told) that Kivam is a bit of a legend in mafia on DM *nods to Kivam* so I understand the frank reflections, but, to me, there’s something kind of dismissive and condescending about the tone. Yes, it’s insightful, but there’s the slightest whiff of sneer and not really much display of team.  Maybe it’s deliberate, I’m not sure. But it concerns me, because I’m assuming that if s/he’s Wolf, s/he’s experienced/smart enough to edit her train of thought in those posts naturally enough to turn suspicions onto the people s/he’d eventually like to see mislynched – and the ‘legend’ status that his/her meta contains could be enough to easily sway unwary town.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

People, help me/us out (all of you – majority rules, remember?). I realise that a player as adept as Kivam will be able to dodge this sort of ‘read’ with incredible ease, no matter where his/her alliances lie, but I thought it was worth a mention specifically to the rest of you, in case I’m on the money.

In response to Kivam’s recap of my participation thus far

  Reveal hidden contents

I have to say ‘fair’, although I’d like to think rather than posting ‘nothing’ what I posted was a possibly important introduction offering insight on how I ‘work’ to people who don’t know me and needed something on which to judge my future tone. That's why I did it. And it seems to have worked just like that for most so *shrugs*, that's also why I'm weighing in now with something more  :wink: . You got me on the saying I’ll disappear again. I’m picking up on that trend with me too. It's annoying and almost as bad as my noobie vibe and the fact that I just referred to you as s/he for an entire read. I’ll work on it. No promises I'll succeed  :tongue:

**Questions for Town**
a) Is this sort of tone - see stuff in spoiler for what I mean - normal for Kivam?
b) Is my malaise on the money? And, for Light’s sake,

c) Am I supposed to be referring to shim (/you) as he or she??????

 

DESPOTHERA

My read on Desp’s initial ‘nothing’ posts was that he came across as possibly too defensive for Town. I had him down as slightly suspicious. But then, I really liked the way he set out his POE post (#455) and a lot of what he said made sense and the way it was written sat well with me. It seemed like a genuine attempt to … well, be genuine. I’m not sure if that, with him, points to wolf or town? Meh.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

**Questions for Town**

Was he? / Has he done anything similar since? 

 

 

 

NYN

I’m not sure what to make of Nyn. Her approach and tone seem to be so opposite to mine it actually takes me aback some. But I think at this point I +1 her for being direct and tending to say things exactly how she ‘thinks’.

 

THANE

Thane seemed very active early on, not so much now (correct me if I’m wrong?). I’m not sure whether this was because he was genuine and got stamped on for being active and attempting to be jovial, or because he was caught out for playing somewhat different from what people would expect. There was possibly something different that I couldn't put my finger on. He’s the only person besides Dice that I know, and I’m not sure if he was coming across a little different to normal for mafia or in general, or not. I don’t think I’ve seen enough of him past the ‘it could just have been banter’ stage to try a real read.

Thane, help me out buddy, what’s going on? Convince me that you’re not a wolf... Pls :smile: 

 

YATES

 It may just have been Seer cover, but I too found Yates’ post #71 (Hard claiming to be Seer, ‘peeking’ Dice as Town) suspicious. I just did. Reasons why outlined in my questions below.

**Questions for Town**

a) Is it usual for Yates to provide such OPEN Seer 'cover'?

b) How plausible is it (especially for those who have caught up and may have examples either way) that Yates may have been a Wolf posting ‘cover’ in the hopes of initiating other ‘peaks’/trying to find the Seer?

 

- - - -

OK. I know this isn’t a full list of players, and that I’m not caught up ( :blink:). If there’s something specific you want my take on, ask. :happy: 

If anyone has a (constructive) strategy for dealing with the frustration of being this behind and where I should go from here I’d be happy to hear it (e.g. Do I have to/is it more helpful for me to go back over everything I’m behind on and comment/give you my reads, or not really?). For now I think I’m going to cut my losses, skip to the present and answer specifics when they arise, K?  

 

Looking forward to moving on and people weighing in.  :biggrin:

 

--->(And to finding out how, for the love of Light, to search for a SINGLE PLAYER’S posts!!!) <--- ANSWER THIS ONE FIRST, please!  :rolleyes: 

 

 

  On 11/12/2014 at 2:57 PM, WWWwombat said:

Also, idk why people like Cass so much.  She seems very self-conscious.

 

 

  On 11/12/2014 at 3:02 PM, Darthe said:

 

  On 11/12/2014 at 2:57 PM, WWWwombat said:

Also, idk why people like Cass so much.  She seems very self-conscious.

I don't think that self-conscious is a bad thing for a newbie but I am not yet willing to town-read her either.  My main reason is that she looks over-coached.  It's kind of ironic that Arsis hasn't called her on it.  

 

 

 

  On 11/12/2014 at 3:06 PM, Cass said:

 

  On 11/12/2014 at 2:57 PM, WWWwombat said:

Also, idk why people like Cass so much.  She seems very self-conscious.

 

I am very self-conscious. One of my biggest problems in life is I that I cannot stand miscommunication/misinterpretation causing problems. It's why I'm such a perfectionist and why here my posts take me so freaking long to write. And here I am in a game where misinterpretation is likely, encouraged by the wolves on the board, and can result in me getting kicked from a game I'm likely to enjoy. I'm definitely self conscious. In the turbo/only other game I've played, not explaining my self-consciousness enough early and up-front is what managed to get me mislynched N1. It's a genuine character flaw *shrugs*. In this game, I would say I've been honest about that upfront.

 

I'm not sure why that makes you question if people like me, but I'm not sure I can explain any better than I have? 

 

Darthe Spam Master

Darthe

Posted
Posted
  On 11/22/2014 at 10:12 AM, Cass said:

*hands out chill pills*

 

Happy Weekend Everybody!

 

C'mon team, we have some super wily wilves to catch...

 

Darthe, any reasons besides that last post and early inactivity for voting Pral? I'm not sure I got why that post was so out of character for this point in the game (I thought his last couple of posts showed similar insight?)

Yes.  Insight is not a word that you would typically use to describe a member of the uninformed majority that has lasted to near endgame as an inactive.  

csarmi Spam Master

csarmi

Posted
Posted

Cause we did like your stuff.

 

Darthe help us out here. Despo sensors are on you and iam not confident enough in my townread of you to oppose that.

Cass Master

Cass

Posted
Posted

Interestingly, Deslarmi.... 

 

These were your views on top lynch when I was being most indecisive (pre last post @ EoD)

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

 

Although I know I've made some silly moves in this game, all of those can be explained in the context of me being Town. I don't feel I've changed my play, other than expressing that I'm finding it harder to pick up clues this stage, and that I'm insecure (hello, have you seen my list of failed gut reads?). 

 

Nevertheless, I find it strange that:

  • You change your view on me so quickly after my EoD post (below); and
  • One of your biggest arguments for that is that I'm being too indecisive (when actually, I've been like that all gameand, on a re-read, my EoD post is pretty darn strong, for me).

Are you OMGUSing me, or did something I said/linked hit to close to home?

 

 

  On 11/21/2014 at 1:59 AM, Cass said:

 

My favourites for SK at this point are Deslarmi or Hallia. I outlined reasons for Deslarmi a couple of times, mostly what caught my eye was the massive hypothesising about who could be SK, whilst at the same time advocating that it’s dubious to hunt SK (Link) and then the fact that for all their Towny FoS’ing, their vote patterns don’t make much sense (link)  . Potentially this is just them as a Hydra Town. Potentially this is me with no idea what’s going on. Potentially they are SK and playing really well.

 

 

Not sure if these points are mentioned in the stuff above, but they’re what’s left of notes so, also weird: Csarmi asked people why they aren’t picking up on his meta and when I asked what meta he was referring to he said he was waiting to see if others pointed it out (p. 121). It sounded like he was baiting/waiting for people to slip. Page 71 Des approved of my vote against Sili, confirming my mal-read link with DPR after I really randomly let the argument against Yates slip. But that was just a page after he mentioned that he wouldn’t like really like to lynch Sili himself (P. 70). I also have something about ‘Grills Kivam’ p. 49, ‘asks Kiv why Sili still at top’ (p. 49) and ‘gets emo, changes opinions on Sili, votes DPR’ p. 70. Sorry don’t have time to link.

 

 

Most Sus

 

AJ

 

Tress

 

 

Next highest Sus of the ‘actives’ / Favourites for SK

 

Deslarmi

 

 

What meta were you hoping people were going to pick up on, btw?

hazelkrs1 Spam Master

hazelkrs1

Posted
Posted

Cass, that is the very definition of a whyme fryme response. You're way too self- obsessed lately.

 

Early on you acknowledged that it was your first game and everything, but although you expressed uncertainty at times you still SEEMED much more proactive and trying to genuinely scumhunt.

 

Lately you're more reserved, more reactionary, and you make a bigger deal out of your nubness to excuse having extremely half hearted reads.

hazelkrs1 Spam Master

hazelkrs1

Posted
Posted

In a nutshell, you started off the game more decisive. And your rambling stream of consciousness type posting made me think you were town.

 

Now you're playing much more cautious, and obsessively quote your own posts and others posts about you in an attempt to prove your innocence. That strikes me as scummy.

Cass Master

Cass

Posted
Posted
  On 11/22/2014 at 1:12 PM, Despothera said:

Lately you're more reserved, more reactionary, and you make a bigger deal out of your nubness to excuse having extremely half hearted reads.

 

Those last reads were not at all half-hearted. Like I said, if AJ were still here, I would be pushing him like there was no tomorrow.

 

If I seem 'self conscious' it's only in reply to the posts where I'm being directly accused of being scum. Not sure I can defend against my silly mistakes in the context of being Town without bringing up the fact that I'm a noob. Because I legit have no other reason. Doesn't mean I'm scum.

hazelkrs1 Spam Master

hazelkrs1

Posted
Posted
  On 11/22/2014 at 1:12 PM, Cass said:

Both of you said you had Tress and Dice on higher scum than I, until that post. What changed?

My reads are always fluid and in the moment. Tress is still on my radar, but you've risen MUCH higher recently. I also think I've quite clearly lined out what behavior of yours seems off to me, and imo a townie response to some of that would be a semi shrug and attempt to explain yourself, but also to try and get out your thoughts on others too. Instead, you're putting FAR too much work in pulling 10000 quotes to defend yourself. You've done this a lot lately.

 

You be got WIM, I'll give you that, bit it looks more like scrambling scum atm. And your insecurity and fretting COULD be because you've been nervous about hiding your alignment this whole time.

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