[Advanced] Revenge of the Marlfox

Andrej · November 3, 2014

Despot I'm not trying to belittle you bro. I'm just trying to make you realize that I don't think the conclusions you are drawing are necessarily correct. You started with one conclusion and have since started to compile information that supports that theory while disregarding other things that are contrary to that belief. I'm trying to help you see things from outside of that dark place you dwell in lol

hazelkrs1 · November 3, 2014

AJ. Here's the thing.

I'm talking about the SINGULAR instance in which Alanna was trying to cover all the possibilities.

And yet she left out the one where Tom might be scum.

I have said why I think that was a slip.

You can flail your arms as much as you want to, and say I'm going overboard all you want, but that does nothing to dissuade me from my opinion that she slipped.

Andrej · November 3, 2014

Okay.

Well I still disagree and if you can't be dissuaded then you can't be dissuaded.

I'll just kinda shrug it off when/if she gets lynched over this and flips villager, which is the likely outcome imo.

hazelkrs1 · November 3, 2014

Despot I'm not trying to belittle you bro. I'm just trying to make you realize that I don't think the conclusions you are drawing are necessarily correct. You started with one conclusion and have since started to compile information that supports that theory while disregarding other things that are contrary to that belief. I'm trying to help you see things from outside of that dark place you dwell in lol

If you just said you disagreed with the theory I was presenting, fine. But you were spending a good bit of time trying to show stuff that you thought proved me wrong, yet i dont think anything you said actually made my theory any less plausible in any way.

And I don't think I'm being thick headed here- I responded to the things you raised and said why I think they are invalid. You have basically responded by saying I'm crazy over and over.

Kinda weird how I'd think you were belittling me, huh?

Andrej · November 3, 2014

Let's be real here dude, you ARE crazy lol

If you disagree with my opinion and input then fine. I was trying to be constructive and show you reasons why I think the way I do over just simply telling you that I disagreed and moved on.

hazelkrs1 · November 3, 2014

I AM crazy.

CRAZY LIKE A FOX!!!!!

:tongue:

Sili Quirrels · November 3, 2014

irt Alanna. You shouldn't take things out of context just to push someone. You also shouldn't put them in a vacuum without a personality.

Besides who's to say you weren't lying. You think everyone believes you automatically?

Pretty sure she accounted for tommy being wily. I know I did, and I still believed him over you.

She didn't tho. According to her, she was looking at it from the angle that he was town. I don't think Alanna would do that as town, knowing how Tommy can be.

And I didn't take anything out of context. Show me where you think I did.

Oh wait you basically never back this sort of thing up with quotes or anything

I'm a bit weak where it comes to arguing impressions with block quotes, admittedly. They seem unnecessary sometimes, especially when the thread is as long as it is. It should be enough to say the entire member list at the time was making conclusions like alanna's, and her thoughts made sense in context. It wasn't weird for her to intermittently assume Tommy was telling the truth, to fix a read of the situation, because you're untrustworthy.

And you act like one short post represents the totality of her thoughts on the situation.

Anyway, if my wim was higher I might do more. Maybe I will post quotes detailing the various exchanges if it's necessary. /shrug.

I know my inclination to skimp is my weakness, but it's not one I care to truly fix when the thread is this long and the interactions so intricate. Ftr rereading the thread looking for evidence to further your case is a lot harder than an iso.

Andrej · November 3, 2014

A Marlfox imo

hazelkrs1 · November 3, 2014

Seriosuly tho- the thing I keep coming back to in my head is you've SEEN my gambits work beautifully in the past. And not like one or two times either, but multiple times. Heck, I've read scumchats after games had ended where you both cautioned your team against my gambits, and cursed me afterwards if I caught one of your teammates or you in one.

Do I have 100% success rate with my gambits? Obviously not.

But you of all people should KNOW how effective they can normally be, yet you're trying to join the "Scold Despot for the dumb gambit" crowd.

I just don't get why.

:blink:

Andrej · November 3, 2014

I don't really remember that tbh

I remember saying in a dead chat once that I had no idea what you were trying to pull. Or in my Mistborn game when you faked a guilty result on Red who was a Town Masonizer.

I'm not trying to shame you or anything, I just don't think it's as effective as you think. I would much prefer you just be straightforward with your thoughts with less of the fancy play syndrome

hazelkrs1 · November 3, 2014

irt Alanna. You shouldn't take things out of context just to push someone. You also shouldn't put them in a vacuum without a personality.

Besides who's to say you weren't lying. You think everyone believes you automatically?

Pretty sure she accounted for tommy being wily. I know I did, and I still believed him over you.

She didn't tho. According to her, she was looking at it from the angle that he was town. I don't think Alanna would do that as town, knowing how Tommy can be.

And I didn't take anything out of context. Show me where you think I did.

Oh wait you basically never back this sort of thing up with quotes or anything

I'm a bit weak where it comes to arguing impressions with block quotes, admittedly. They seem unnecessary sometimes, especially when the thread is as long as it is. It should be enough to say the entire member list at the time was making conclusions like alanna's, and her thoughts made sense in context. It wasn't weird for her to intermittently assume Tommy was telling the truth, to fix a read of the situation, because you're untrustworthy.

And you act like one short post represents the totality of her thoughts on the situation.

Anyway, if my wim was higher I might do more. Maybe I will post quotes detailing the various exchanges if it's necessary. /shrug.

I know my inclination to skimp is my weakness, but it's not one I care to truly fix when the thread is this long and the interactions so intricate. Ftr rereading the thread looking for evidence to further your case is a lot harder than an iso.

I don't think it makes sense for town!Alanna to intermittently assume Tommy was telling the truth, no. The town Alanna I know would have been considering the situation from ALL angles, and would also know to be wary of wolves that can look towny (and I assume she believes this about Tommy). Whether she found me trustworthy or not is irrelevant- she was trying to summarize ALL possibilities.

And, to yet again turn into a broken record, she left out the one possibility that scum would be likely to leave out by accident, because they would have known they didn't RB me.

And yeah dude, not trying to be harsh or meanyhead jerkface, but I got ZERO sympathy in regards to you complaining about the thread being so long. You have absolutely an enormous part in that being the case, so you remarking upon it like you are here frankly kinda irritates me.

I think you and Tommy spamming the thread like yall have has been EXTREMELY antitown, as basically no one in their right mind is going to do a reread now. Rereads are often invaluable to finding things everyone else forgot about a long time ago or something, often little things. Additionally yall have made it very difficult for players to even follow along.

Things have slowed down somewhat, but still, whether town or scum, please do me a favor- don't send in hundreds of little posts when less posts with a few more thoughts would do just as well. It's good to stay present and engaged with the thread, but my God man you don't have to take it so far.

hazelkrs1 · November 3, 2014

I don't really remember that tbh

I remember saying in a dead chat once that I had no idea what you were trying to pull. Or in my Mistborn game when you faked a guilty result on Red who was a Town Masonizer.

I'm not trying to shame you or anything, I just don't think it's as effective as you think. I would much prefer you just be straightforward with your thoughts with less of the fancy play syndrome

I'm not good at remembering which games things happened in (prob as a result of often being in multiple games at once) but the one I distinctly remember, I was going after Rags for something, and you were scum with some relative newbies, and you warned them not to let me goad them into following my lead in case it was a trap, and another game where I was going after Turin in false pretenses and I caught you extremely early on when you hedged on the situation (and you said in scumchat how I could read you well and you were trying to figure out how to play the situation)

At least one of them was in the BT, I think the other one was on this board

Regardless, when I pull stunts like this, it's not like I'm completely unwilling to listen to different perspectives or consider new info. Quite the opposite in fact. Earlier this game even, I thought some posts from Monstr were posturing. But after gathering them again, looking at them from a fresh perspective, and considering input from other people, I decided that I was probably wrong there.

I have tried considering this situation from different perspectives, and each time I end up coming to the same conclusion. My suspicions on Alanna and BFKey just make too much sense when I compile all the evidence.

Sili Quirrels · November 3, 2014

My meaning of the word intermittently was lost in translation, apparently. No one contemplates a situation from ALL angles, immediately or always. They don't need to say everything in one post to not be scum.

I'm not appealing to sympathy. I know I had a hand in it, thought not as much of one as you think. It's just strict quid pro quo and what I'm willing to do for my town.

You always spam the thread. You've been doing it far worse than either me or tom ever since you became active, in my opinion.

And I'm a new player. This is probably my most I've spammed.I've made a note to do it less next time. End?

Pralaya · November 3, 2014

Alright, back from the weekend. So, yeah, I have given out my reads and said that there will be more explanation when the day starts. So, here it is.

Also, I have no idea what has happened in the last 50 or so pages except that nobody died last night. I am kinda guessing doc targetted Tom and the scum did too - because I don't see anyone else who would be a viable target to both scum and town. The no-kill kind of confirms my read that Tommy is town.

Back to my reads.

Alanna:

The main reason I am suspecting Alanna is that she is trying to look out as super townie and is kinda hedging in a lot of places. Posts like the below. "I am finding what he did weird but I don't think it as that scummy" kind of posts. Frankly I haven't seen a scum Alanna but I find the hedging play to be really suspicious.

Thane thinking Krak had intentionally roled a female player as a female character was definitely super weird, but I'm not sure I find it scummy. If it had come out of nowhere, but he seemed to be responding to Krak pointing out there could be clues or hints in the scenes he writes.

##Berf

i want some more. His post was 'hey guys, i'm here and will post something'. Really, something more would be nice. Or not, then we can lynch and get on with it.

I'm going to have to look back at berf's post. I'm thinking it was not as bad as some people think it was. There are others who haven't posted much - Pral and Rags come to mind - so I don't know why this is so scummy from berf. I haven't played with him in a while and don't really remember what his activity is usually like, but just because he's not a prolific poster so far warrants 4 votes?

Yeah, so, berf's post. I looked over it and, really he didn't say much. He focused first on some of the Thane/Verb stuff from the start of the game, and gave some sparse thoughts about a few other players. I don't find it an abnormal post for just getting into the game. I especially saw where he was coming from on Despo (who he thought had an off entry into the game but proved much more townie-like later) and manbat (who he noted was handing out a lot of town reads without much reason behind them).

He felt that Cory seemed scummy because he seemed defensive, I think? (If I read that right.) But agrees that Hallia looks good. And seemed to find Yates and Thane scummy. Yates I think either because he was ignoring Tommy and/or because of his "cheering" of Hally. And Thane because of his thoughts about Krak roling a player based on gender.

I feel like berf could definitely use a little pressure, but I don't find that one post lynchworthy, atm. Not getting a scum vibe from his post.

More examples are here, here, here and many more.

Anyway, the interesting part that stood out was that she originally didn't find either Thane or Berf scummy, as quoted above. Yet, by the end of the game her top 2 scum were Berf and Thane.

This looked a lot opportunistic, especially given that Berf was the leading wagon and the focus was also shifting towards THane during the end of the day with Tommy and Leelou hinting that they would be willing to vote THane.

Sili
Despo
Pral
Verb
Thane
Alanna
Rags
Arsis
Lates
Cuddles
Tommy
BFKey
Monstr
dice
berf

That's where I'm at. Two-colored means I'm back-and-forth. Frankly, I tend to vote late in the day on Day 1 and I like to park my vote and see what kind of scrambling happens ITT. But since it's not hybrid hammer, I am open to changing my vote. I would pretty much vote any of my orange or yellow reads, though obviously I'd prefer the orange.

This whole lot of hedging and opportunistically voting Berf and Thane is definitely scummy. Also, looking at the wagonomics that happened at the end of D1, her vote definitely stands out

Sili Quirrels · November 3, 2014

Any other reads besides an Alanna iso that you're taking out of context?

Sili Quirrels · November 3, 2014

:biggrin: I suppose you kind of have to iso huh. Still, I want to clear up your slot if possible, so reads on others would be nice, and it would be even nicer if they weren't pulled out of context (re. berf, thane votes). And it would be best if you stuck around.

hazelkrs1 · November 3, 2014

Any other reads besides an Alanna iso that you're taking out of context?

Lol

"Taking out of context" has become your new "He has an agenda"

:laugh:

hazelkrs1 · November 3, 2014

I suppose you kind of have to iso huh. Still, I want to clear up your slot if possible, so reads on others would be nice, and it would be even nicer if they weren't pulled out of context (re. berf, thane votes). And it would be best if you stuck around.

There it is again! LAWLZ

And fyi I don't think the stuff he raised was "out of context" at all. He supplied the context, which was the same thing I saw when pulling Alanna quotes

Sili Quirrels · November 3, 2014

Being overly peculiar? Fudging the truth? Removing vital content that gives insight into the quoted passages? Detailing only the text you think is important? Being biased and destructive to the scum hunt?

Sili Quirrels · November 3, 2014

I mean I can say it in a lot of ways, but saying 'out of context' is the nicest.

hazelkrs1 · November 3, 2014

And all the ways you just said it still don't apply to this situation

Also you have almost 3 times as many posts as me. I'm not spamming like you have this game.

Pralaya · November 3, 2014

Key:

regarding Key, as I said previously, one of the scumtell of her is her nudging and pushing the opinion of others during the initial part of the game.

I highlighted these posts as the example where she tried to slightly nudge against Tommy and Cory at the start.

Tommy, why a(n incorrectly formatted) vote on Yates if you think Verb's post where he pulled your quotes is the wolfiest thing so far?

I wouldn't expect much from me

My popularity has waned here so expect me to say something when I have something to say and little else

Even jokes grate people now apparently so I'll stop that as well

If it makes you feel better I'm actually a villager this time

I've seen Cory as emo town, someone who has played with him more, does he do this as scum as well?

And that's also the other thing about tommy. He always bloody clears me when he's scum. >.>

Unless he doesn't when he's town, does this matter?

Arsis, could you please provide examples, like Hally was asking for? I don't see where she's nervous.

And, then she starts calling out Berf when he was starting to get heat from Tommy and manbat. Both Tommy and Manbat had voted Berf by this point and this post at the time stood out for me.

@Tommy – I’m not mad. Y U copy AJ’s thoughts?

@Lee – you won’t be seeing just a ton of BFG for D1, I’m afraid. She’s uberbusy at work. I’ve asked her on our QT about sharing her thoughts though, since she can open the QT at work, but generally not DM due to cloudflare. I’ll post her insights if she’s okay with it.

Thoughts atm:
Manbat looks very townie after reading through his posts here and his beginning posts in Cory’s and my game. His comfort level seems better, and I remember him saying how much he hated being scum in the QT during mine and Cory’s game. I also liked his response to me regarding his reaction o des’s question. Might seem silly, but I wanted to see how he answered regarding rolling scum or not since I remembered about his complaints on the QT.

I don’t know that I will ever feel comfortable putting Tommy firmly in a town pile, unless maybe a cop view with an already dead GF or sane cop flip, as someone else before me said, but as Cory and Manbat are both reading him as town, and my partner says she can read him given time, I’m willing to give it a bit of time.

Dice looks very townie, for putting his reads ITT and having some of them be against the grain, but for logical reasons. He doesn’t do this as well as scum, imo.

Alanna’s catch up post looks okay.

Not a fan of Berf’s catch up post. He comments on a post of Thane’s that has already been discussed, but doesn’t discuss the implications of TMI, which seems odd. Says Cory’s post regarding laying low pinged. Seems an odd thing to say as ScumCory, as it would surely draw attention. Also, if he’d caught up, he should have seen Cory’s post about posting less to encourage more from quieter players. Says Hally’s hydra with Cory makes him wonderful, but then he doesn’t like Yates’s friendly cheering of Hally. His scum reads are, imo, the easy people in the thread to call scum. He plus ones a few of Arsis’s posts, but doesn’t mention him at all in his assessment at the bottom.

I agree with Tommy that a lot of Arsis’s pop-ins seem to be encouraging a fight without adding much of his own to it. “Don’t forget he also did this,” kind of add-ins. Being an instigator, though, I’m not sure that’s a tell for Arsis.

Ceratinly didn't like BFG at the end of D1 saying that she will be there to consolidate but not voting anyone till the last minute. Here is where she says she will consildate (she had her vote on Berf at this point)

Here, not here.

Beyond brain dead, will move vote to consolidate if necessary.

Yet hesitates to vote Sili (which combined with my scum read on Sili makes sense why) and looks like actively trying to look for an alternate

VOTE COUNT

Berf (4): BFKEY, Alanna, AJ, Thane

BFKEY(1): Pral
Sili (6): Des, Rags, Lates, Cuddles, Arsis, Dice
Arsis (1): Verbal
Rags (2): Monstr, Sili
Thane (1): Tommy

Not Voting (1): Berf

Deadline Set:

http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20141030T21&p0=2133&msg=Deadline+Day+1&csz=1

Manbat, Sili, Tommy, Dice, me, Arsis are around. Anyone else?

And, she votes Thane minutes before the deadline in order to consolidate. If her intention was to consolidate, I don't see why she would hesitate to vote Sili with just around 30 mins to go before the deadline.

Definitely scummy.

Sili Quirrels · November 3, 2014

You've been active only for the last 40 pages and you have a third of my posts? :rolleyes:

We've talked about your isos. In the end you want me to reread the thread to provide evidence of your malfeasance, and I think that's disgustingly tedious.

Sili Quirrels · November 3, 2014

This is where I am now. Especially looking at the wagonomics last day. More details she D2 starts but for now these are my reads.

Town:

Arsis

Tommy

Dice

Berf

Null/?:

Des

Rags

Manbat

AJ

Slightly scummy:

Verbal

Lates

Cory/Halley

Scum:

Key

Alanna

Sili

For the record. I should be next? Can't wait.

Pralaya · November 3, 2014

Any other reads besides an Alanna iso that you're taking out of context?

Have patience, there is one on you too.

And, out of context? Hah. I basically listed her whole progression of reads.

[Advanced] Revenge of the Marlfox

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