Why the wheel of time is Almost epic ( IMO)

[Suttree]

Ahh so when he left Emonds Field he had a "rage fit to burn the world" and was almost as hard as Logain and Taim?

 

If you want to see what a man is made of, push him from a direction he doesn't expect. There's good metal in that boy, I think, but he's going to be difficult." Steepling her fingers, she peered across them at the wall, musing to herself. "He has a rage in him fit to burn the world, and he holds it by a hair. Push him too far off balance .... Phaw! Al'Thor's not so hard yet as Logain Ablar or Mazrim Taim, but a hundred times as difficult, I fear."

- A Crown of Swords, Diamonds and Stars
 

 There is a clear character development in addition to the growing madness.  Saying he is the same boy internally ignores the what is written in the actual text. Even up until ACoS...

[EmperorAllspice]

but then there's the problem of characters becoming unrecognizable as that character. Like Egwene. She honestly doesn't even feel like Egwene anymore, and I'm aware that's the point, but for some reason I bought that a lot more with someone like Rand than her.

[Norseman]

Ahh so when he left Emonds Field he had a "rage fit to burn the world" and was almost as hard as Logain and Taim?

 

If you want to see what a man is made of, push him from a direction he doesn't expect. There's good metal in that boy, I think, but he's going to be difficult." Steepling her fingers, she peered across them at the wall, musing to herself. "He has a rage in him fit to burn the world, and he holds it by a hair. Push him too far off balance .... Phaw! Al'Thor's not so hard yet as Logain Ablar or Mazrim Taim, but a hundred times as difficult, I fear."

 

- A Crown of Swords, Diamonds and Stars

 

 There is a clear character development in addition to the growing madness.  Saying he is the same boy internally ignores the what is written in the actual text. Even up until ACoS...

 

Actually it is nothing of the sort: it's just one character saying another character has developed.  I have seen none of that development for myself, or so little as to be functionally none.  Also I have no idea how "hard" either Mazrim Taim or Logain are, so as a means of measurement they are both equally useless.

 

In any case it would make no difference to me if every other character in the books suddenly stated that Rand had changed immensely - if I haven't seen him change myself, then it hasn't happened.  So show me, don't tell me.

[Suttree]

 In any case it would make no difference to me if every other character in the books suddenly stated that Rand had changed immensely - if I haven't seen him change myself, then it hasn't happened.   

 

If you haven't seen him change you either aren't reading carefully or are ignoring the changes we see them have throughout the story.

 

As for Cadsuane, we see her constantly adapt her tactics and treat people based on their actions. She is as good a read of character as we have. Her insight is used in this instance to underline the changes we see Rand undergoing throughout the series. Again if it isn't readily apparent how he has grown and how "hard" he is becoming(no to mention the insanity) as the books progress I'm not sure I can help you.

 

Just to summarize a few things things that should be clear even after the first four books.

 

13th Depository

Character-wise, he is indeed wiser and a lot less naïve, but understandably a lot less trusting, and perhaps less kind, as well. The psychological assault on Rand: sleep derivation, threats and assassination attempts have taken their toll. Of necessity he has started to harden himself, but it is nothing compared to what he will be like at the end of book 6 or book 11.

 

[Rhienne]

I really don't understand how you can say that.  Rand starts out as a naive boy, terrified by the idea that one of him and his three friends can channel.  He begins to try to take responsibility for his role in book 3 when he strikes out on his own to fulfill the prophecy of the Stone of Tear, showing that he has come to accept who he is.  He tries to learn from Lan and Rhuarc about duty and leadership.  His changing response to Moiraine is evidence of a shift in her personality.  He moves from awe and unthinking obedience to her wishes to putting up a brick wall and refusing to listen even when she is telling him things which are important.  He develops an almost obsessive complex about protecting women from danger from what was initially just a desire to look after Egwene.  By ACoS he is well into the process of trying to make himself stronger, but actually he is just losing his humanity.  If you are expecting an explicit moment of internal realisation you will have to wait till book 12 though.

[Tarvalantarverann]

He moves from awe and unthinking obedience to her wishes to putting up a brick wall and refusing to listen even when she is telling him things which are important.

Ok this is a great character trait to develop? Ignore stuff that might be helpful just because you don't like someone, sounds like nynaeve and moiraines relationship.

 

Btw just read the part in book 4 where Elaine and nynaeve set off from tear, and Tom and the theif catcher come along to lend a hand, now I don't know for sure but am I wrong in guessing that at some point the two guys save the girls? Maybe by disobeying an order from them? I just witnessed the most disgusting dialogue where nynaeve demands an oath that the men do exactly what they say when they say it, as if they are now the universal intelligence and know all, how naive, then she again treats them like dogs and tells them to run along and talk to the sail mistress to find a little hole for the men that is out of the way. And they are there to help! My god Tom knows the city at the very least they should be happy to have a guide. Insolent little brat. I have now decided to skip any and all chapters with nynaeve as this was the last straw

[EmperorAllspice]

Yeah, I still don't know how people defend the way women act in this series. Maybe a few, but the fact that EVERY woman acts this way without exception is skin peelingly annoying at times. Here's a rough chart of how 80% of conversations between the genders go in this series

 

Male/Male: Actually intelligent or funny conversations where both sides respect the other.

 

Male/Female (Male POV): Why are these women being such mysterious bitches? I'm only trying to help and protect them but they give me no respect.

 

Male/Female (Female POV): Light! This man is so stupid, whyy can't he just sit in the corner and do as I say?! It's for his own good.

 

Female/Female: This woman stands higher than me because of how many earings she has on and slighted me by bowing slightly differently! Simmer simmer simmer simmer!

[Suttree]

 

He moves from awe and unthinking obedience to her wishes to putting up a brick wall and refusing to listen even when she is telling him things which are important.

Ok this is a great character trait to develop? Ignore stuff that might be helpful just because you don't like someone, sounds like nynaeve and moiraines relationship. 

 

That isn't entirely correct. He does listen at times, but as he grows Moir was forced to change her tactics in how she dealt with him. It is the start of the progression of him not trusting AS which culminates in LoC. He doesn't just "ignore her" always because he doesn't like her.

[Tarvalantarverann]

Yeah, I still don't know how people defend the way women act in this series. Maybe a few, but the fact that EVERY woman acts this way without exception is skin peelingly annoying at times. Here's a rough chart of how 80% of conversations between the genders go in this series

 

Male/Male: Actually intelligent or funny conversations where both sides respect the other.

 

Male/Female (Male POV): Why are these women being such mysterious bitches? I'm only trying to help and protect them but they give me no respect.

 

Male/Female (Female POV): Light! This man is so stupid, whyy can't he just sit in the corner and do as I say?! It's for his own good.

 

Female/Female: This woman stands higher than me because of how many earings she has on and slighted me by bowing slightly differently! Simmer simmer simmer simmer!

Thank you!

Man I was starting to think I was one of the only ones to see the man hate in this series, I think the writer was a bit of a mangina.

 

Look at some of the great fantasy epics, LoTR, The Empire Trilogy by Feist, Icewind Dale Trilogy by Salvatore and all his forgotten realms books, all of these authors manage to have strong, influential female characters that are main players or stars in the stories and they are beautiful personalities that are enjoyable to read completely different to these immature brats.

[Suttree]

Look at some of the great fantasy epics, LoTR, The Empire Trilogy by Feist, Icewind Dale Trilogy by Salvatore and all his forgotten realms books,

Please tell me that is a joke. Holding Feist and Forgotten Realms up as examples of great fantasy epics with strong characterization?!

[Rhienne]

 

Look at some of the great fantasy epics, LoTR, The Empire Trilogy by Feist, Icewind Dale Trilogy by Salvatore and all his forgotten realms books,

Please tell me that is a joke. Holding Feist and Forgotten Realms up as examples of great fantasy epics with strong characterization?!

 

Additionally, the role of the women in LoTR - rightly or wrongly - has been the subject of literary criticism.  Nynaeve, Elayne, and Egwene are pretty much on a level with the three ta'veren in terms of number of POVs, the things they do and achieve etc.  Galadriel, Arwyn, and Eowyn are a big step down from the main characters.  Additionally, these are pretty much the only female characters, while the WoT has a much more balanced character list.

[Tarvalantarverann]

Please tell me that is a joke. Holding Feist and Forgotten Realms up as examples of great fantasy epics with strong characterization?!

Ok so you don't like Mara or think her character isn't developed very well or something? All three books are about her, whether you delve deeply into her personality or not it would be obvious if she was a man hating bitch, which she isn't, and that's my point. I never said these were examples of "strong characterisation" just that they all featured important female players that weren't hoe's. do you argue that all books with strong female characterisation inevitably ends up with nasty women, or do you think there may be other examples out there that would fit with my views?

 

Do you think if Galadriel had of been written into every chapter she would turn into a towering mass of contradiction and teeth gnashing?

 

How about Game of Thrones? Do you deing to call that an epic fantasy or is it too mainstream? Maybe the chapters and chapters devoted to female characters is not enough development for you?

 

You aren't arguing the point, just trying to argue with me about specifics. If you disagree that they are good books, frankly my dear I don't give a damn, and the point still stand, Robert Jordan created vile creatures in women's skin.

[Suttree]

 

Please tell me that is a joke. Holding Feist and Forgotten Realms up as examples of great fantasy epics with strong characterization?!

 I never said these were examples of "strong characterisation" just that they all featured important female players that weren't hoe's. do you argue that all books with strong female characterisation inevitably ends up with nasty women, or do you think there may be other examples out there that would fit with my views?

 

 

Well with an argument as clear and persuasive as the bolded, not sure how I missed where you were going the first time around. As for the second part why on earth would strong female characterization have to = nasty. That is a rather odd thing to say.

 

Further characters in Feist or Salvatore's work are on the whole not well developed. They are cliched, cardboard cutouts with little to no depth.

 

How about Game of Thrones? Do you deing to call that an epic fantasy or is it too mainstream? Maybe the chapters and chapters devoted to female characters is not enough development for you?

 

Yes Game of Thrones is an excellent example of epic fantasy with very good development and characterization for many of the female characters.

 

If you disagree that they are good books, frankly my dear I don't give a damn, and the point still stand, Robert Jordan created vile creatures in women's skin.

 

Let's take a look at some of Salvatore's writing shall we.

 

The second pie Jarlaxle threw came in harder, and was not meant to be caught—except by the man’s surprised expression.

“What?” the woman yelled as the pie splattered across her lover’s face, and he gave a yell, as well, but one of pain.

“Jarlaxle, what are you about?” Piter demanded.

 

“I am killed!” the surprised man cried. He slapped at his face, sending cream flying and eventually revealing a small dart that had been concealed within the pie, protruding from his cheek. He reached for it, hands trembling, but he couldn’t quite seem to grasp it.

–Road of the Patriarch, R. A. Salvatore

I AM KILLED

I MEAN WHO THE HELL SAYS THIS

HE IS KILLED BY A DART. HIDDEN IN A PIE.

 

Your words do not match your expression,” she said. “Tell me. Can you not trust me? What is it that so upsets the humors of Artemis Entreri? What is it about you? What happened to you, to ignite this inner fire?”

“You speak in foolish riddles of your own imagination.” He bent down again to pull his pants on, but Calihye gripped him more tightly, forcing him to look back at her.

“What is it?” she pressed. “How is a warrior of such perfection as Artemis Entreri created? What history did this to you?”

 

Very natural interaction there. It reads like a bad translation, does Salvatore understand how people form sentences? Heh. "great fantasy epics" indeed.

 

As for your point it most certainly doesn't stand. You seem to be subjectively arguing that one woman seems like a good person while RJ's don't. RJ has well developed characters that have actual depth. You have to get past a surface level reading and understand motivations and what drives them. To be clear I'm not saying that some of their behavior isn't questionable. For you to come to the conclusion you do however ignores who they actually are. 

[EmperorAllspice]

for the record

 

Understanding a character =/= enjoying a character. I understand perfectly WHY Dany does what she does in ASOIAF. She still made me quit the series in disgust because I couldn't stand her chapters anymore. I know WHY Egwene acts the way she does. That doesn't mean it's not insufferable to sit through. There may be a fully justified psychological reason for why a man is punching you in the face, that doesn't mean it's enjoyable to sit through.

 

Some are going to find Egwene and the girls obnoxious regardless of whether or not they're nuanced characters.

[Suttree]

 

Some are going to find Egwene and the girls obnoxious regardless of whether or not they're nuanced characters.

 

Of course but that didn't seem to be where the poster was going. They seemed to imply not only did they not like them but that they were terrible people. That totally ignores examples like Nyn's reasons for setting out after the Emonds Fielders, Egwene being the only one of Rand's friends to stand by his side when it's found out he can channel, and Cadsuane's drive to better those around her or empathy for male channelers. Maybe I misunderstood, apologies if that is the case. Dunno but "man hating bitch" seemed to be a give away.

[EmperorAllspice]

I do honestly think though that Cadsuane is an author's pet character and should've been changed slightly. She's TOO good and has no weaknesses that I can discern. To the point where I've stopped being impressed by her and just want to see her lose because she never does. MAybe that's just me personally. I dunno.

 

It's just annoying to me as a villain fan to see that while there's this whole arc about  how the Forsaken aren't as good as the hype surrounding them, Cadsuane totally lives up to her hype. Near enough anyway. Just feels like RJ really didn't like his villains.

[Suttree]

She certainly isn't a pet of BS. Things can change drastically. RAFO.

[EmperorAllspice]

also my last real criticism of WOT's writing. I don't think RJ does small talk all that well. The big decisions and the speeches and the politicking, he does that great, but when characters (especially the women) are just chilling it feels weird and a bit unnatural.

[Suttree]

Disagree. Take Mat for instance, or the interplay betwen LTT/Rand. Just brilliant suff.

[EmperorAllspice]

That's why I said mostly the women. As I said in the gender charts. Men always have the best interactions with other men.

[Tarvalantarverann]

So I have to look for the reasons that they are crappy people? I never said Nynaeve shouldn't have followed the crew, in fact it was noble, but where I do have issue is her ongoing hate of Moiraine, which to any reasonable person is unwarranted, unless of course you are a 12 year old girl.

 

Lets look at Elayne and Egwene and almyra all ganging up on Rand because he didn't try to convince Elayne not to leave, and she took this as a sign he didn't love her, firstly what a childish thing to do to write two contradicting letters, very highschool, not daughter queen stuff. It is basically an attack on him because he didn't show the appropriate female emotions that Elayne wanted, lets not forget he's got a bit of stress around him atm and she's playing stupid mind games with him. Again this is realistic I suppose, and I can see a silly girl doing exactly this, in fact I do see it whenever my uncles wife says she is going for a girls night and he says he hopes she enjoys it and he might hang with the guys, suddenly turns into a fight about he doesn't want her around. Because the behaviour may be justified from the woman's perspective does not make it any less terrible to read

[EmperorAllspice]

Yeah, the females beign really pushy about this stuff always creeped me out to no end.

 

Like Egwene basically going "Gawyn WILL be bonded to me. One way or another." Um, isn't bonding against a person's will tantamount to rape?  Egwene is fantasizing about raping Gawyn?

[Suttree]

Like Egwene basically going "Gawyn WILL be bonded to me. One way or another." Um, isn't bonding against a person's will tantamount to rape?  Egwene is fantasizing about raping Gawyn?

 

[Tarvalantarverann]

 

 

Like Egwene basically going "Gawyn WILL be bonded to me. One way or another." Um, isn't bonding against a person's will tantamount to rape? Egwene is fantasizing about raping Gawyn?

Come on mate think about it seriously, if the roles were reversed and Gawyn said the same of Egwene would it be ok?

[EmperorAllspice]

that and the infamous Mat and the queen of Ebou Dar incident.