Rand's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[Luckers]

Discuss. NOW!!!!!! :)

[MarkDiLillo]

The only problem I have with it is was his god powers in ToM.  I also would probably have him die at the end, but the ending was still awesome as written.

[Christina Gleason]

Still don't think that a world with an absence of evil is as bad as any of the Dark One's options. Not buying it. Kill the Dark One, Rand. Just KILL HIM!

[MarkDiLillo]

Still don't think that a world with an absence of evil is as bad as any of the Dark One's options. Not buying it. Kill the Dark One, Rand. Just KILL HIM!

 

You're missing the point then.  The point isn't that there is no evil.  The point is that people have lost their free will because they don't have the option to choose anymore.

[Christina Gleason]

 

Still don't think that a world with an absence of evil is as bad as any of the Dark One's options. Not buying it. Kill the Dark One, Rand. Just KILL HIM!

 

You're missing the point then.  The point isn't that there is no evil.  The point is that people have lost their free will because they don't have the option to choose anymore.

No, I don't think that killing the Dark One would have taken away the right for anyone to choose anything. Not having an outside entity actively pushing evil on the world isn't the same as removing people's capacity to do bad things. I think Rand had it wrong.

[MarkDiLillo]

Eh, I see what you're saying.  I honestly chalk that up to sloppy writing leaving it unclear and filled with some logic holes.  I dont want to get into the whole quality issue in this thread, but I feel like we have to take it at face value and instead of trying to pick apart the logic in the scenes just accept the message that the author wanted us to.

[Jon Paul]

I need to agree with Karistina.

 

I didn't really understand this part. The Dark One exists outside of the Pattern. But the Pattern is not inherently good is it? It's neither good nor evil. It just is. Without the Dark One why would everyone become these lifeless "Light-bots"? The Dark One is locked away now and cannot touch the pattern.

 

Evil still exists in their world.

 

Rand blew it. He should be destroyed him utterly.

[MarkDiLillo]

The overall message is that if Rand kills the Dark One he kills all evil in the world.  Thereby removing the option to choose evil from everyones lives.  This means that they lose their free will and are nothing but puppets.

[Torome]

I think Rand made the right choice.  Is the DO being dead better than the other DO options, yes, but the way things were actually set is the best option.  Despite the fact that he brought out the worst in people, he inadvertently brought out the best too.  That is why the good people from the Third Age are stronger than the people of the AoL, that is why Rand was able to win and LTT lost.

[Jon Paul]

The overall message is that if Rand kills the Dark One he kills all evil in the world. Thereby removing the option to choose evil from everyones lives. This means that they lose their free will and are nothing but puppets.

But the Dark One is no longer touching the Pattern. The Wheel still spins, the Pattern still weaves.

 

There is both good and evil in their world. Free will and choice remain.

 

Yet the Dark One does not.

 

Rand's just doomed the world to another cycle and another battle.

[Random_Person13]

I think that it would have broke the wheel. I mean every age is supposed to be the same with small diffrences if the was no dark one it would have epicly changed the ages.

 

and the dark one helps people see their options more. If there is no evil you can know no good. it goes to opposites show what things really are

[Random_Person13]

double post sorry

[Christina Gleason]

 

The overall message is that if Rand kills the Dark One he kills all evil in the world. Thereby removing the option to choose evil from everyones lives. This means that they lose their free will and are nothing but puppets.

But the Dark One is no longer touching the Pattern. The Wheel still spins, the Pattern still weaves.

 

There is both good and evil in their world. Free will and choice remain.

 

Yet the Dark One does not.

 

Rand's just doomed the world to another cycle and another battle.

Yep.

 

I win again, Lews Therin.

[MarkDiLillo]

Guys, the point is that the Dark One represents evil.  Just like saidin and saidar work together to turn the wheel of time, the dark one and the creator oppose each other and work together to enable free will and choice.  I know it isnt explicitly explained in the series, and I feel like thats where the writing needed some clarification, but it is clear thats the overall scheme of things once you see Rand's last sentences coming out the Pit of Doom in the epilogue.

[helis4life]

 

The overall message is that if Rand kills the Dark One he kills all evil in the world. Thereby removing the option to choose evil from everyones lives. This means that they lose their free will and are nothing but puppets.

But the Dark One is no longer touching the Pattern. The Wheel still spins, the Pattern still weaves.

 

There is both good and evil in their world. Free will and choice remain.

 

Yet the Dark One does not.

 

Rand's just doomed the world to another cycle and another battle.

I think that's the whole point, the inevitability of the situation.

 

Kill the dark one? I was slight incredulous when I was reading that. To me, that's like trying to kill Fear.

 

I thought the imagined world without the Dark One was appropriate, It was a completely new world, not the one after the Last Battle, So these people would have never known the negative emotions associated with the Dark One, ie Fear, Hate, Jealousy, Anger. I find the decision to not "Kill" the Dark One appropriate.

 

It seems apparent to me that although the Dark One is said to exist outside of the Pattern, It is also still very much apart of the Pattern. That the True Power co exists with Saidar and Saidin as making up the pattern. Which to me fits with the notion that the Bore was drilled by channellers trying to find a new source of power. If the True Power had not been part of the Pattern or at least connected then how could anyone possibly have known to go looking for it.

 

 

I have a question regarding the final scene with Rand, He reaches for the One Power and find he has no ability anymore, But then wills his pipe to ignite? What exactly is going on there? Is this alluding to the fact he no longer requires the One Power and weaving it to still have abilities to create and destroy? Or is he something else now?

[Suttree]

It shouldn't need clarification really. The DO is the dark counterpart to the Creator. It fits with the single biggest theme in the series.

[Christina Gleason]

In any case, I'm glad that I was right with my interpretation of "his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul." He didn't need to actually die. He just needed to be there and bleed a bit.

[MarkDiLillo]

OK, one question I have....

 

Brandon specifically said that the black slab or rocks and whatnot at the Black Tower are from Shayol Ghul.

 

Why the hell did he say that?  I mean seriously...why did he tell us that?

[Viperswhip]

The only problem I have with it is was his god powers in ToM.  I also would probably have him die at the end, but the ending was still awesome as written.

God powers in ToM? You hadn't seen nothing yet lol

 

How about the fact he can either alter reality with his mind now, or he is a pyrokinetic.

[mykal71]

I think one of the overall themes of the entire series is "balance". Female channelers, male channelers, men & women in general, good & evil. One cannot exist with out its opposite. I think that was the porpose of the differing scenes of the possible worlds, with the absence of one or the other, good & evil. That without the Dark One, without "evil", people would become apathetic and give up free will. Same thing happens (albeit in opposite) when the DO displays his worlds without "good" in it. Rand had to come to that realization before he could complete his task. In the end, he knew that the cycles would continue and that eventually, the DO would reemerge and the Dragon would have to fight him again. It has to be that way for mankind to progress. Perhaps, in the next "Last" battle, mankind will be left even better off than they were this time.

[mykal71]

Double post. Sorry!

[Suttree]

Yeah it was weird that Rand's seeming extra powers in ToM were then apparently reconned(using an item of power at Maradon, heartbeat trick to find DF's, Brandon quote about Rand powering up as of KoD) Its like they all of a sudden decided they didn't want the power up post TGS epiphany but wanted to save it for the end in AMoL.

[Entreri]

I am surprised how easily he handled Shai'tan, no more than an annoying "mite".  Rand should have destroyed it, Shai'tan serves no purpose.  The human race without Shai'tan affecting the Pattern = AoL. 

[Ashaman Valen]

Perhaps the whole issue with the DO was a trick. Who presented the vision with no evil = no free will? It was the DO. Maybe the DO wanted rand to think that so as to save his own butt. The DO is known as the father of lies after all.

[titan]

Okay, help me out here.  I just finished reading and it's a blur:

 

1) How did he light the pipe? Huhwhat?

2) How did he swap bodies?  Yeah, I know Alivia helped, but did I miss a page or something?  Balefire link, merging personalities, etc, but how did it finally finalize?