The Ultimate Betrayal: Demandred

[Black Waltz]

Just a thought on this topic, that's probably been completely debunked already, but I've always seen Demandred as an Age of Legends equivalent to a False Dragon. Particularly when you take into account the BWB text about him being "almost" LTT, that is reminiscent of Logain, Taim and the Tairen prior to the events of Falme where Moiraine is convinced that it is effectively the pattern demanding the Dragon. In the AoL case, Demandred never needs to actively fulfill this role, but is reduced to being Taim, the second, and as Rand thinks in AMoL Ch. 1 that he put him in his place wouldn't help this.

 

However this quote from LoC Ch. 2 could ultimately make it possible:

"Do you know any other way to deal with [the Forsaken]?" Rand asked, "They die, or the world does. Unless you think they can be talked into abandoning the Shadow the way they abandoned the Light."

It's not much in light of his views about the Forsaken in the rest of the chapter, but does at least open the door for this being a possibility.

[Kiriath Til Asdod]

We know that the the dragon is key to the DO final victory i.e. breaking the wheel etc. If Demo kills Rand however, the DO can break free and even win like he has in the past, but at some point will be resealed. No Rand means no ultimate victory for the DO.

[herid]

The DO doesn't need Rand to break the Wheel. All he needs to do this is to break free from his prison. With Rand dead this will happen very soon. The only reason he wants Rand is because Rand is the champion of the Light and it would please the DO greatly to have him turned.

[athrian]

The DO doesn't need Rand to break the Wheel. All he needs to do this is to break free from his prison. With Rand dead this will happen very soon. The only reason he wants Rand is because Rand is the champion of the Light and it would please the DO greatly to have him turned.

 

Ishy has stated though that in the past, the champion of the Light has been killed or even served the Shadow, and the DO hasn't broken free yet. It seems as though the Bore allows him to touch the world, but even if nothing was done, he wouldn't be able to break free through it. The Dragon has to do something very specific to free the DO (or destroy the wheel himself as Darth Rand almost did). If the DO could break free through just the Bore, he would have tried to have Rand killed and someone just break the remaining seals. Instead, he (eventually) put a do-not-kill order on Rand. Even with Rand going full-Light after VoG, there's no indication that they're trying to kill him again.

 

This I think is what Rand is contemplating as something that hasn't been tried before. He doesn't want to re-seal the Bore or even remake the prison, he wants to stop the cycle by killing the DO and to do that, he would have to open the prison completely somehow. This is also the one way the DO can achieve his ultimate victory; the Dragon frees him and then the DO wins the fight.

[Shaidar]

Why would killing Rand save the Pattern? The last remaining seals are crumbling and the DO will soon get free anyway. With Rand dead there will be nothing to stop him.

 

The world will be overrun by Trollocs, and might even disintegrate under the DO's influence, but there will be an infinity of Mirror Worlds to carry on.

 

The DO breaking free in one world results in him breaking free in all worlds, but for that he needs a Dark Dragon.

 

I.e., without the Dragon, Randland will die, but the Pattern will continue. That is why the Borderland rulers were prepared to strike Rand down if he reacted to their provocations with anger. Better that the storm consume one world, than that the Wheel of Time itself be broken.

[herid]

Where are you guys getting this stuff?! There is nothing in the books to suggests this. In the past when the Dragon was turned we don't know what the condition of the bore and the plug on it was. What we do know is that if the bore is open and remains unpatched the DO will break free and destroy the pattern. The WOT cosmology is very clear on that. There is nothing extra to hold the DO in his prison once the bore in open. the DO doesn't need Rand for anything once that happens. All the characters agree with this, that includes Rand with his LTT memories and Moridin. The only ones who don't are the other Forsaken and the DFs who have a different idea about what the DO will do when he really gets free. But we as readers know they are wrong. Both RJ and BS were quite explicit about it in interviews. If the DO gets free the Pattern is toast. LTT and the other Aes Sedai in the AoL realized this which is why they were desperate to plug the bore. and the same thing is happening now. If Rand dies for good the remaining seals crumble, the bore is fully open and the DO gets out soon, if not right away. The Borderlander prophecy fully supports this too.

"If he cannot answer," Paitar said, "then you will be lost. You will bring his end swiftly, so that the final days may have their storm. So that Light may not be consumed by he who was to have preserved it. I see him. And I weep."

It tells them to kill Rand because they wouldn't want him, who was supposed to be the savior, to be the one to destroy the world. But it would be destroyed quite soon anyway and when "the final days have their storm".

[athrian]

What we do know is that if the bore is open and remains unpatched the DO will break free and destroy the pattern. The WOT cosmology is very clear on that. There is nothing extra to hold the DO in his prison once the bore in open. the DO doesn't need Rand for anything once that happens. All the characters agree with this, that includes Rand with his LTT memories and Moridin.

 

I'm not sure where you are getting this from, though I'll admit I haven't done a full re-read in awhile and could have forgotten something. The DO can touch and influence the world through the Bore, but there's nothing to suggest he can free himself through it. Remember that during the War of Power, the Bore had been open for a hundred years and the DO was still imprisoned. The only person I believe who has suggested that breaking the seals (and thus re-opening the Bore) would allow the DO to break free is Egwene, and she went back a bit on that stance in the prologue to aMoL.

 

But we as readers know they are wrong. Both RJ and BS were quite explicit about it in interviews. If the DO gets free the Pattern is toast. LTT and the other Aes Sedai in the AoL realized this which is why they were desperate to plug the bore. and the same thing is happening now.

 

LTT and the AoL AS were desperate to plug the hole because the Shadow was winning. Sammael's armies had taken over the place where the CK access keys were being made. The Shadow was outnumbering their armies due to the use of Shadowspawn and constructs. Some of the best military minds and most powerful channelers had crossed over to the Shadow. They had to act fast and do something risky not because the DO was about to break free, but because they were just a few months away from complete military defeat.

 

The female AS in fact thought LT's plan of sealing the Bore carried a risk of ripping the prison open, and did not want to help him with it. That's why they ended up using only men and wound up with a faulty seal and tainted Saidin.

 

If Rand dies for good the remaining seals crumble, the bore is fully open and the DO gets out soon, if not right away.

 

If that were the case though, Rand wouldn't have a do-not-kill order put on him, nor would the Shadow have spent so much effort trying to turn him. Even after VoG, there is nothing to suggest he has become "kill on sight", suggesting that the Shadow needs him to do something else.

 

The Borderlander prophecy fully supports this too.

"If he cannot answer," Paitar said, "then you will be lost. You will bring his end swiftly, so that the final days may have their storm. So that Light may not be consumed by he who was to have preserved it. I see him. And I weep."

It tells them to kill Rand because they wouldn't want him, who was supposed to be the savior, to be the one to destroy the world. But it would be destroyed quite soon anyway and when "the final days have their storm".

 

I believe the Borderlander prophecy was more about Rand's state of mind and willingness to destroy the world before his revelation in VoG. He even says it himself in his meeting with them, that if that meeting had taken place just a few days ago, things would have been very different. The instructions in the prophecy to kill Rand are to prevent a full destruction of the world and thus the "ultimate" victory for the DO. The DO would still more than likely have *a* victory militarily, but he would still be imprisoned and the world would still exist, it wouldn't be *the* victory.

 

If the last seals are broken, the Bore opens to the level it was at during the War of Power and the DO gets more influence on the world. But as far as I know, there's nothing to suggest he can escape through just the Bore.

[herid]

If the last seals are broken, the Bore opens to the level it was at during the War of Power and the DO gets more influence on the world. But as far as I know, there's nothing to suggest he can escape through just the Bore.

There can't be a definitive in-book reference to something like this because the destruction of the Pattern can only happen once. There were no explicit comments by RJ or BS on the subject AFAIK so if that's the only proof you'll consider then there is not much left to discuss here.

But there is a lot of in-book evidence very clearly pointing in this direction. Firstly, Egwene is not the only one who thinks that the DO will eventually get free if the bore is open. All the Aes Sedai think so as does Rand/LTT and he would be pretty well informed on the matter. He told Egwene and later Nynaeve as much in ToM.

 

"You can't break the seals," Egwene said. "That would risk letting the Dark One free."

"A risk we must take. Clear away the rubble. The Bore must be opened fully again before it can be sealed."

--ToM, ch 3

Nynaeve frowned. "But Rand, if you let him free, won't that make it even worse?"

"Perhaps for a short burst," Rand said. "Opening the Bore will not free him immediately, though it will give him more strength. It must be done regardless.

--ch 15

In fact, as far as the readers know, there isn't a single person in the story who thinks that will not happen. The Forsaken think so as well, all of them. e.g. Demandred here:

 

Oh, the Bore was still blocked, though more tenuously than when he had wakened from his long sleep and broken free of his own prison in it. Blocked, but larger than when he woke. Still not so large as when he had been cast into it with his fellows at the end of the War of Power, but at each visit since waking, a little wider. Soon the blockage would be gone, and the Great Lord would reach out across the earth again. Soon would come the Day of Return. And he would rule the world for all time. Under the Great Lord, of course. And with those of the other Chosen who survived, also of course.

--LoC, prologue.

He believes the DO will get free once the Bore is open. He just doesn't think that the DO will destroy the Pattern after that but this is a different story.

This also tells us that the bore is increasing btw. Once the last seals go it will be as big or bigger as it was before it was sealed in the AoL. And it was increasing after it was open in the AoL which is why the DO couldn't get free right after the bore was drilled.

Detractors pointed out that the Bore had enlarged since it was first drilled.

--The strike at Shayol Ghul

If it wasn't sealed by LTTand the 100 companions then the DO would have gotten free eventually.

Things are clearly on the way to the same outcome now unless the bore is resealed. The bore is increasing as Demandred observed and that with 3 seals still remaining but crumbling. The world is falling apart and can not continue in its present state for much longer. There is absolutely no way it can last for years (likely not even months) if Rand dies and the Bore is not resealed.

 

As for the reason why the DO had a do not kill order on Rand, as I said this was because he really wants to turn him. That order was not always in place and is definitely lifted again now as evidenced by the Isam scene and the Forsaken gathering scene in the AMOL prologue.

 

Lastly, your interpretation of the borderlander prophecy doesn't make sense. It says that all will be lost and "the last days will come" if they kill Rand because without Rand the DO will get free soon and that will be that for the world. According to you the DO will still remain imprisoned indefinitely and moreover in some distant future the bore will be resealed again. So the coming days won't really be the last and not everything will be completely lost either.

[athrian]

There can't be a definitive in-book reference to something like this because the destruction of the Pattern can only happen once. There were no explicit comments by RJ or BS on the subject AFAIK so if that's the only proof you'll consider then there is not much left to discuss here.

But there is a lot of in-book evidence very clearly pointing in this direction.

 

There really isn't though. We have what some of the characters think will happen, but they're simply stating their opinions, as opposed to any evidence as presented in the WoT world. In fact, Egwene even changes her stance in aMoL Chapter 1:

 

Egwene rubbed her temples. “There is a difference between touching the world and being free. During the War of Power, the Dark One was never truly released into the world. The Bore let him touch it, but that was resealed before he could escape. If the Dark One had entered the world, the Wheel itself would have been broken.

 

Note also that any perspectives by the Forsaken except for Ishmael about the DO's motives or capabilities will be suspect, since the DO obviously lies to them about ruling vs destroying the world.

 

This is something I asked about in another thread, which I just found here:

http://www.dragonmou...bout-the-seals/

 

One poster was kind enough to find this for me, which debunks the "the Bore has gotten larger" theory:

 

INTERVIEW: Nov 2nd, 2010

TOM Signing Report - Matt Hatch (Paraphrased)

 

MATT HATCH

Is the Bore larger or smaller than it was at the time of the Sealing?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

The same size (95% sure).

MATT HATCH

So, are the seals, even in their weakened state, the reason the Bore has not grown any larger?

BRANDON SANDERSON

As far as I know, yes.

 

You are correct that there isn't anything definitively stating the DO would stay sealed, but there isn't anything as definitive as you seem to think that the DO could get out through the bore either. All I'm going by is a logical interpretation of what is known:

 

1) The DO was not free during the 100 years the Bore was fully open, nor was he close to breaking free at the time the sealing occured during the War of Power.

2) If the DO could simply escape when the seals are broken, there would be no need for the Shadow to spend so long trying to turn Rand. The logical thing would have been to simply put their resources into trying to kill him, and locating the seals and breaking them immediately as they are found (since they are so brittle anyone can do this at this point).

3) Since the Bore has not increased in size, breaking the seals gives the DO the same level of influence and risk of escape as he had at the end of the War of Power, and again, he wasn't perilously close to escaping at that point.

 

Lastly, your interpretation of the borderlander prophecy doesn't make sense. It says that all will be lost and "the last days will come" if they kill Rand because without Rand the DO will get free soon and that will be that for the world. According to you the DO will still remain imprisoned indefinitely and moreover in some distant future the bore will be resealed again. So the coming days won't really be the last and not everything will be completely lost either.

 

'Last days' don't necessarily have to mean the end of the world, The Last Battle is the end of the Third Age. It can simply be referring to the last days of the current age. I read the borderland prophecy instructions to kill Rand as to prevent him from doing what he almost did in VoG because of his despair.

[herid]

the quote you give doesn't debunk the theory that the bore is getting larger. This is just BS not being completely familiar with material. He is hedging his answer slightly too but that does not really matter.

The quotes I gave are by RJ and they are from the books. One is from LoC and the other is from the Strike on Shayol Ghul.

 

BS is also answering a slightly different question there which does not really contradict what I was saying.

He is actually confirming there that once the seals are gone (which will happen soon no matter what) the Bore will keep growing bigger from the size it was at the Sealing.

 

Sorry for the multiple edits BTW. That's not cool of me after saying that I'm done with the subject. we can discuss this particular point further if you want.

[athrian]

Suit yourself, I thought it was an interesting discussion.

[herid]

sorry, see my edits above please.

[Suttree]

The female AS in fact thought LT's plan of sealing the Bore carried a risk of ripping the prison open, and did not want to help him with it. That's why they ended up using only men and wound up with a faulty seal and tainted Saidin.

 

This is incorrect. The plan was flawed and the only difference had the women been involved would have been Saidar tainted as well. Per RJ it was a "lucky thing" LPD and the women withheld their support.

[athrian]

This is incorrect. The plan was flawed and the only difference had the women been involved would have been Saidar tainted as well. Per RJ it was a "lucky thing" LPD and the women withheld their support.

 

I worded that poorly. You are correct, the plan itself was flawed. At one point when Lews Therin was rambling in Rand's head, Rand theorized that the seals were flawed because saidin only was used. The main point I had been trying to communicate was that the DO was not about to immediately escape and that particular fear was not why LTT tried to seal the bore, as the person I was replying to claimed. There was the fear though that an attempt at sealing would rip the prison open and free the DO, and that is one of the reasons the women refused to help:

 

The World of The Wheel of Time, p44:

The plan was risky for a number of reasons. All knew that the Dark One had a certain direct effect on the area close around Shayol Ghul- his touch had already transformed it from an idyllic island in a cool sea to a desolate waste- and it was quite likely that any attempt to channel there would be instantly detected and the raiding party destroyed. Worse, several experts claimed that if the seals were not placed with exact precision, the resultant strain, instead of sealing the Bore, would rip it open, freeing the Dark one entirely.

 

Support in the Hall of the Servants for the second plan, and opposition to the first, centered around a woman named Latra Posae Decume. Apparently a speaker of considerable force and persuasion, she gathered many adherents around her, but what assured her victory was an agreement she reached with every female Aes Sedai of the Light. (In the manuscript, this agreement is called "the Fateful Concord," but it is doubtful that this was the name by which it was generally known.) Lews Therin's plan was too rash, too dangerous, and no woman would take part in it.