Will Rand kill the DO?

[Yosarian]

Why is it "the prophesies must be fulfilled," shouldn't it be "the prophesies will be fulfilled?"

 

I think there's a big difference between "what will happen in the last book" and "prophecies are an unstoppable force of nature and nothing can prevent their happening."

 

One is a statement about how the books actually happen to turn out, the other is a statement about the nature of reality in the Wheel of Time universe.

 

I mean, in any book, you can flip to the last page of any book and see what happens; that doesn't mean that, from an in-universe point of view, that that ending was inevitable.

 

Edit: Here, let me give you an example.

 

We KNOW, for a fact, that in the scene when Rand and Moraine confronted Lanfear, there were three different ways it could have gone. Either Rand dies, or Rand becomes Lanfear's lover, or Moraine sacrifices herself to take out Lanfear. Those were all possible futures. Out of those 3 possible futures, in 2 of them, the rest of the prophecies would have gone unfilled. (Rand never would have worn the crown of swords if he had died at that point.)

 

So we KNOW that there are key points when the Prophecies of the Dragon could have been prevented from fully coming to fruition.

[herid]

@FSM, why do you think the Wheel has turned an infinite number of times already? I don't think that's true. I think it's very large but finite. I recall Nyn seeing dinosaur bones in the museum in Tanchico in TSR.

[Knivy]

I agree with what you say.. But I think my question was poorly put. I am talking in an in-book, in world thing. Why are those like Moir so concerned about attempts to control Rand affecting the prophesies? I understand why she'd be concerned about the control, but the prophesies will be fulfilled no matter what (barring the destruction of the wheel)

[FarShainMael]

@FSM, why do you think the Wheel has turned an infinite number of times already? I don't think that's true. I think it's very large but finite. I recall Nyn seeing dinosaur bones in the museum in Tanchico in TSR.

 

In VoG, Rand "remembered lives, hundreds of them, thousands of them, stretching to infinity".

 

The dinosaur bones may simply have originated from an earlier Age. We have to consider what it is that distinguishes one Turning from the next. Recall that RJ knew some physics, and would have known about things like the Big Bang. It might be that a complete Turning goes from Big Bang to Big Crunch, resetting the whole universe, and restarting evolution (including dinosaurs and ourselves) from the beginning.

[herid]

stretching to infinity doesn't mean actually infinite. It's just a description. The cosmology of WOT is explained fairly clearly in the books and in the BWB. There was a definite moment of creation in the beginning and things got rolling from there on. mathematically, this precludes the possibility of an infinite number of turnings of the wheel at any given moment.

[FarShainMael]

I've commented elsewhere that the 'moment of creation' may have been in the timeframe of the Creator, not the timeframe of the Wheel; the relationship being analogous to the relationship between a computer programmer and a simulation program.

[Yosarian]

@FSM, why do you think the Wheel has turned an infinite number of times already? I don't think that's true. I think it's very large but finite. I recall Nyn seeing dinosaur bones in the museum in Tanchico in TSR.

 

Well, it can't have, right? If there's a Creator, then that means that at some point the Wheel must have been Created, and it didn't exist before that point, right?

[FarShainMael]

@FSM, why do you think the Wheel has turned an infinite number of times already? I don't think that's true. I think it's very large but finite. I recall Nyn seeing dinosaur bones in the museum in Tanchico in TSR.

 

Well, it can't have, right? If there's a Creator, then that means that at some point the Wheel must have been Created, and it didn't exist before that point, right?

 

See my previous post.

[realspkr]

Let me try again, with context since my last post. Just because the people in randland believe there is a creator doesn't mean there actually is one. It means that for them to understand what might be called magic they need a creator mythos, and to understand why that creator allows evil is to create an evil counterpart. If you stop taking what the characters in the book to believe is canon, and instead think of it as a religion that some components are believed as absolute -- but aren't you can begin to apply real external logic to the information provided. "The flawed hand of man wrote the words, thus they cannot be perfect." Allow some of what is believed to be false and take the essence.

 

Look at the times when one character or another goes over what information they have heard and discount some as truth and other as fiction or fancy. But they get it wrong, every time. Some of the extraordinary is truth and some of the mundane is fiction. They then wrap what they believe to be true to explain events around them, and repeat it as truth. And so on...

 

So, what's really going on? It doesn't matter if there is really a creator or DO, In the bore could be mole that's very charismatic, or some very powerful human that called himself the DO and was manipulating the chosen.

 

If Callendor cannot be drawn more than once, then the dragon *must* be defined by that event. Except the creator certainly didn't stick the sword there, so who did? Could it be put back to be drawn again? What if This cycle the dragon is really all 3, Mat, Rand, and Perrin? Any of them could have drawn the sword, Rand just got there 1st, and is the manifestation that can wield the OP. (Think the logic behind the holy trinity, one but 3 but one.)

 

I still contend that the real battle against the DO has already been fought on dragonmount when Rand decides not to commit suicide. Instead he chooses good, and now it's just a matter of cleanup. He will be wounded trying to win, and thus blood will be spilled, but him being dragon, already decided. Everything else was just to make the non-believers believe.

[Suttree]

Let me try again, with context since my last post. Just because the people in randland believe there is a creator doesn't mean there actually is one. It means that for them to understand what might be called magic they need a creator mythos, and to understand why that creator allows evil is to create an evil counterpart. If you stop taking what the characters in the book to believe is canon, and instead think of it as a religion that some components are believed as absolute -- but aren't you can begin to apply real external logic to the information provided. "The flawed hand of man wrote the words, thus they cannot be perfect." Allow some of what is believed to be false and take the essence.

 

Look at the times when one character or another goes over what information they have heard and discount some as truth and other as fiction or fancy. But they get it wrong, every time. Some of the extraordinary is truth and some of the mundane is fiction. They then wrap what they believe to be true to explain events around them, and repeat it as truth. And so on...

 

So, what's really going on? It doesn't matter if there is really a creator or DO, In the bore could be mole that's very charismatic, or some very powerful human that called himself the DO and was manipulating the chosen.

 

If Callendor cannot be drawn more than once, then the dragon *must* be defined by that event. Except the creator certainly didn't stick the sword there, so who did? Could it be put back to be drawn again? What if This cycle the dragon is really all 3, Mat, Rand, and Perrin? Any of them could have drawn the sword, Rand just got there 1st, and is the manifestation that can wield the OP. (Think the logic behind the holy trinity, one but 3 but one.)

 

I still contend that the real battle against the DO has already been fought on dragonmount when Rand decides not to commit suicide. Instead he chooses good, and now it's just a matter of cleanup. He will be wounded trying to win, and thus blood will be spilled, but him being dragon, already decided. Everything else was just to make the non-believers believe.

 

Felix is that you?

[TristanWebb]

@FSM, why do you think the Wheel has turned an infinite number of times already? I don't think that's true. I think it's very large but finite. I recall Nyn seeing dinosaur bones in the museum in Tanchico in TSR.

 

Well, it can't have, right? If there's a Creator, then that means that at some point the Wheel must have been Created, and it didn't exist before that point, right?

Think of it this way. EotW was released in 1990. Prior to that there was no WoT, but in universe, the characters had lives before Rand went Emond's Field the day before Bel Tine. The moment of creation externally could involve the creation of an infinite history internally.

[yoniy0]

Ahm, not to ruin a perfectly good discussion, but does anyone care to return to the original topic?

[Yosarian]

If Callendor cannot be drawn more than once, then the dragon *must* be defined by that event. Except the creator certainly didn't stick the sword there, so who did? Could it be put back to be drawn again?

 

Well, we know Callendor was made during the Age of Legands. Maybe it was stuck in the Stone of Tear during the breaking to keep it out of the hands of any other man who can channel and who was going insane.

[Whizbang]

During Rand's trip through the pillar ter'angreal in Rhuidean, we see through the eyes of an Aiel just after LTT and the 100 Companions assault Shayol Ghul. Someshta is there, and a few female Aes Sedai. On the table is the Dragon Banner and Callandor. They (the female Aes Sedai) are the ones who created the Eye of the World and placed Callandor in the Stone. There was never any indication that Callandor was created or placed in the Stone by the Creator (except, I suppose, indirectly through the Aes Sedai). Also, there was specifc prophecy that says it will be drawn more than once. One of the prophesies says that "He who draws it out will follow after" (or something like that). When Rand drives the sword into the ground in the Heart of the Stone, he knows that someone else will draw it out, and that that person will somehow "follow after". That is why he is so careful in who he chooses to send after the sword before his campaign against the Seanchan. He knows that whoever he choses will somehow be very important "after" (the LB, assumedly).

 

As for if Rand will kill the DO... I believe not. The best he can hope for is seal the bore (perfectly this time, not just a patch). Maybe Fain will be key to this, but I think not. Fain will certainly not take the DO's place. He is too weak for that. He is mortal, for one. For another, even though he has some awesome powers, he hasn't shown anywhere near the power level that would be needed to warp the pattern and possibly destroy it. That bit is important if you are going to be the DO. An I think Fain won't be key to sealing the bore because RJ has said Fain is a wild card. So... if this is age is just a repeat (with a few changes and one wild card), then how was the Bore Sealed in previous rotations of the Wheel? There was no Fain, therefore it is possible to do it some other way.

[herid]

Let me try again, with context since my last post. Just because the people in randland believe there is a creator doesn't mean there actually is one. It means that for them to understand what might be called magic they need a creator mythos, and to understand why that creator allows evil is to create an evil counterpart. If you stop taking what the characters in the book to believe is canon, and instead think of it as a religion that some components are believed as absolute -- but aren't you can begin to apply real external logic to the information provided. "The flawed hand of man wrote the words, thus they cannot be perfect." Allow some of what is believed to be false and take the essence.

 

Look at the times when one character or another goes over what information they have heard and discount some as truth and other as fiction or fancy. But they get it wrong, every time. Some of the extraordinary is truth and some of the mundane is fiction. They then wrap what they believe to be true to explain events around them, and repeat it as truth. And so on...

 

So, what's really going on? It doesn't matter if there is really a creator or DO, In the bore could be mole that's very charismatic, or some very powerful human that called himself the DO and was manipulating the chosen.

 

If Callendor cannot be drawn more than once, then the dragon *must* be defined by that event. Except the creator certainly didn't stick the sword there, so who did? Could it be put back to be drawn again? What if This cycle the dragon is really all 3, Mat, Rand, and Perrin? Any of them could have drawn the sword, Rand just got there 1st, and is the manifestation that can wield the OP. (Think the logic behind the holy trinity, one but 3 but one.)

 

I still contend that the real battle against the DO has already been fought on dragonmount when Rand decides not to commit suicide. Instead he chooses good, and now it's just a matter of cleanup. He will be wounded trying to win, and thus blood will be spilled, but him being dragon, already decided. Everything else was just to make the non-believers believe.

There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.

 

There is another theory which states that this has already happened.

[Yosarian]

Yeah, I don't think Rand is going to kill the Dark One.

 

I do think that it's possible that he will manage to do more then just patch the bore and actually re-create his prison to the pristine condition it was in before the Age of Legends. At the very least, that has to happen at some point before the wheel gets all the way back around to the AoL, although there's no reason to think that it's Rand in this age that manages it.

[Knivy]

Let me try again, with context since my last post. Just because the people in randland believe there is a creator doesn't mean there actually is one. It means that for them to understand what might be called magic they need a creator mythos, and to understand why that creator allows evil is to create an evil counterpart. If you stop taking what the characters in the book to believe is canon, and instead think of it as a religion that some components are believed as absolute -- but aren't you can begin to apply real external logic to the information provided. "The flawed hand of man wrote the words, thus they cannot be perfect." Allow some of what is believed to be false and take the essence.

 

Look at the times when one character or another goes over what information they have heard and discount some as truth and other as fiction or fancy. But they get it wrong, every time. Some of the extraordinary is truth and some of the mundane is fiction. They then wrap what they believe to be true to explain events around them, and repeat it as truth. And so on...

 

So, what's really going on? It doesn't matter if there is really a creator or DO, In the bore could be mole that's very charismatic, or some very powerful human that called himself the DO and was manipulating the chosen.

 

If Callendor cannot be drawn more than once, then the dragon *must* be defined by that event. Except the creator certainly didn't stick the sword there, so who did? Could it be put back to be drawn again? What if This cycle the dragon is really all 3, Mat, Rand, and Perrin? Any of them could have drawn the sword, Rand just got there 1st, and is the manifestation that can wield the OP. (Think the logic behind the holy trinity, one but 3 but one.)

 

I still contend that the real battle against the DO has already been fought on dragonmount when Rand decides not to commit suicide. Instead he chooses good, and now it's just a matter of cleanup. He will be wounded trying to win, and thus blood will be spilled, but him being dragon, already decided. Everything else was just to make the non-believers believe.

There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.

 

There is another theory which states that this has already happened.

 

Hitchhiker's Guide, anyone?

[Whizbang]

I do think that it's possible that he will manage to do more then just patch the bore and actually re-create his prison to the pristine condition it was in before the Age of Legends. At the very least, that has to happen at some point before the wheel gets all the way back around to the AoL, although there's no reason to think that it's Rand in this age that manages it.

 

 

I do believe he will perfectly seal the bore. He would be the only one who could do it, in this age or another. It makes sense, in light of everything that has happened in this series, that it will occur in this age. Herid Fel, of course, (like a good philosopher) did not discount the possibility that it might occur in another age, but it seems to me as a reader that it is an all or nothing scenario for the DR in regards to the re-seal.

 

So, my two cents:

Rand will not kill the DO.

Rand will kill Fain (although I do play with the possibility that Fain will escape justice and cause strife in the 4th age, which is why Gaidal Cain is born)

Rand will perfectly seal the Bore, more than likely by restoring the EotW and using that, or at least remembering what the power in the Eye was like.

[Yosarian]

It's possible.

 

On the other hand, it wouldn't surprise me if they patch it again, hopefully without letting the One Power get tainted this time. I think it's suggestive that Egwene has just re-discovered how to make Cuendillar, which is what was used to make the seals for the patch in the first place. With that, and with men and women channeling together (all the Aes Sedi that have bonded Asha'men and the Asha'men that have bonded Aes Sedi, not to mention Rand and Nyv) they might be able to redo what Lewis Therrin did, but better.

[Whizbang]

I don't have any Quote-fu to quote a specific interview question, but RJ has said that if both sides of the OP were used to patch the bore, then both sides would have been tainted. So, it was actually fortunate that only males were used to seal the bore.

 

Something special needs to be used to seal the bore perfectly.

[Whizbang]

Found the quote.

 

Interview: Apr, 2003

 

Budapest Q&A (Verbatim)

Question

 

Why saidin, why not saidar, was tainted?

Robert Jordan

 

 

Because there were only men in the party that made up the party that made up the Strike at Shayol Ghul, that were setting the seals. In the act of setting the seals, there was a backblast that affected the people doing this. As I pointed out in something...I wrote a piece called The Strike at Shayol Ghul...there was a great division at the time—I don’t know if all of you have read it...or have none of you read it?

QUESTION

 

Yes, yes.

ROBERT JORDAN

 

Okay, then you know about the political struggles that were going on, and the different plans to try and end the War of the Shadow, and seal up the...and why various groups thought that one plan or the other was the best way to go. And in the end, what resulted was the so-called “Fatal Covenant” [it was actually the “Fateful Concord”], which had the female Aes Sedai swearing not to go along with Lews Therin’s plan, that they would not support it. The result of this was that Lews Therin carried out his plan with only male Aes Sedai, so there were only male Aes Sedai channeling there, which was a lucky thing, because if there’d been women as well, then both saidin and saidar would have been tainted. And his plan worked, except for that one side effect of the backblast which tainted saidin and caused him and the men there with him to go mad there and then, and other male Aes Sedai to go mad slowly as they touched the Source and began to absorb bits of the taint. But that’s why saidar was not tainted, because there were only men there channeling during this act of sealing up the Dark One’s prison.

[Suttree]

It's possible.

 

On the other hand, it wouldn't surprise me if they patch it again, hopefully without letting the One Power get tainted this time. I think it's suggestive that Egwene has just re-discovered how to make Cuendillar, which is what was used to make the seals for the patch in the first place. With that, and with men and women channeling together (all the Aes Sedi that have bonded Asha'men and the Asha'men that have bonded Aes Sedi, not to mention Rand and Nyv) they might be able to redo what Lewis Therrin did, but better.

 

LTT's plan was flawed, the only difference had the women be involved would have been saidar tainted as well.

[herid]

Let me try again, with context since my last post. Just because the people in randland believe there is a creator doesn't mean there actually is one. It means that for them to understand what might be called magic they need a creator mythos, and to understand why that creator allows evil is to create an evil counterpart. If you stop taking what the characters in the book to believe is canon, and instead think of it as a religion that some components are believed as absolute -- but aren't you can begin to apply real external logic to the information provided. "The flawed hand of man wrote the words, thus they cannot be perfect." Allow some of what is believed to be false and take the essence.

 

Look at the times when one character or another goes over what information they have heard and discount some as truth and other as fiction or fancy. But they get it wrong, every time. Some of the extraordinary is truth and some of the mundane is fiction. They then wrap what they believe to be true to explain events around them, and repeat it as truth. And so on...

 

So, what's really going on? It doesn't matter if there is really a creator or DO, In the bore could be mole that's very charismatic, or some very powerful human that called himself the DO and was manipulating the chosen.

 

If Callendor cannot be drawn more than once, then the dragon *must* be defined by that event. Except the creator certainly didn't stick the sword there, so who did? Could it be put back to be drawn again? What if This cycle the dragon is really all 3, Mat, Rand, and Perrin? Any of them could have drawn the sword, Rand just got there 1st, and is the manifestation that can wield the OP. (Think the logic behind the holy trinity, one but 3 but one.)

 

I still contend that the real battle against the DO has already been fought on dragonmount when Rand decides not to commit suicide. Instead he chooses good, and now it's just a matter of cleanup. He will be wounded trying to win, and thus blood will be spilled, but him being dragon, already decided. Everything else was just to make the non-believers believe.

There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.

 

There is another theory which states that this has already happened.

 

Hitchhiker's Guide, anyone?

One of my favorite books. I thought it was a fitting quote here given the situation.

[Yosarian]

It's possible.

 

On the other hand, it wouldn't surprise me if they patch it again, hopefully without letting the One Power get tainted this time. I think it's suggestive that Egwene has just re-discovered how to make Cuendillar, which is what was used to make the seals for the patch in the first place. With that, and with men and women channeling together (all the Aes Sedi that have bonded Asha'men and the Asha'men that have bonded Aes Sedi, not to mention Rand and Nyv) they might be able to redo what Lewis Therrin did, but better.

 

LTT's plan was flawed, the only difference had the women be involved would have been saidar tainted as well.

 

Possibly; I remember Rand wondering about that exact question at several points in the series.

[Suttree]

It's possible.

 

On the other hand, it wouldn't surprise me if they patch it again, hopefully without letting the One Power get tainted this time. I think it's suggestive that Egwene has just re-discovered how to make Cuendillar, which is what was used to make the seals for the patch in the first place. With that, and with men and women channeling together (all the Aes Sedi that have bonded Asha'men and the Asha'men that have bonded Aes Sedi, not to mention Rand and Nyv) they might be able to redo what Lewis Therrin did, but better.

 

LTT's plan was flawed, the only difference had the women be involved would have been saidar tainted as well.

 

Possibly; I remember Rand wondering about that exact question at several points in the series.

 

RJ said it was so flat out and Rand says he can't do it the same way what is possibly about that?

 

RJ

The result of this was that Lews Therin carried out his plan with only male Aes Sedai, so there were only male Aes Sedai channeling there, which was a lucky thing, because if there’d been women as well, then both saidin and saidar would have been tainted.