The Last Battle will be in Tel'aran'rhiod... read why.

[Thor]

Yeah, that's what people say, but not what the book says.

 

Where does it say that Deathgates are the same as Travelling Gateways?

 

Also, I still feel that Trollocs can enter TAR (during sleep), because not only do they have human genes, they also have wolf genes. So yeah, even more reason for them to have the capacity of entering TAR one way or another.

[RobertAlexWillis]

rd2000 got it for me, but I'll give a more specific reference.

 

After Logain asked him where the Deathgates went to, Rand said:

 

"It doesn't matter where they went," Rand said absently ... "Shadowspawn can't survive passing through a gateway."

 

(Knife of Dreams, chapter 19 Vows)

 

Rand got his knowledge about Deathgates from Lews Therin, and mad as he is, Lews Therin has more experience fighting Shadowspawn than anyone living. Shadowspawn can't survive passing through a gateway.

[Thor]

He didn't specify what gateway.

 

Just the deathgates, or also travelling gateway?

 

There are all sorts of gateways, how can they all be the same?

 

Ofcourse, it's much simpler to say, yeh, deathgates are moving gateways.

 

but that seems really irrisponsible to me, what if someone was walking where the deathgate opened to? That person will get spliced!

 

Not very Light like if you ask me.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Reread the conversation, Thor. Deathgates are the same as Travelling gateways. I'm not going to retype the whole thing for you. I gave you the reference, its not my fault you if you don't have your books.

[Thor]

Nowhere in that reference did Rand say straight out "Deathgates are travelling gateways".

 

Where did he say that? Where? Nowhere.

 

And as I said already, that is not very responsible nor is it Light like for him to do what he did. Passerbies can get seriously hurt/damaged by those Deathgates.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Thats why I said go back and read the WHOLE conversation. The fact that they are the same as regular Travelling gateways is implied by the fact that:

 

1) When Rand makes them, he thinks to himself that they look like the familiar gateways, just with a changing destination.

 

2) Logain asks where they sent the Trollocs. That means he recognized them as Travelling gateways too.

 

Rand had his thought before the name "Deathgates" cam to his mind, and Logain asked the question before Rand told him the name "Deathgates".

 

Read the WHOLE CONVERSATION.

[Thor]

About point one, what Rand thought is not necesarrily true, but then again, he is a channeler, so he should have a good judement of it.

 

But about Logain's comment about where he sent them, that really doesn't prove anything. Anybody can see that the trollocs went somewhere else, doesn't mean that it is a travelling gateway. He could have sent them into the skimming zone for all we know.

 

Hum, actually, I wonder if deathgates are moving skimming gateways, that would make much more sense.

 

But it will also be funny, next time someone skims, maybe a few hundred trollocs falls down on them. :lol:

[Guest Wynne Jessal]

:shock:

 

So, again, how do Shadowspawn randomly show up at certain places in the story? I know many of the attacks originated via Waygate. But, like... in TFoH when Rand and the Aiel are attacked upon entering the Spine of the World. Or, in TSR, the first batch of Trollocs and Myrdds came via grain barges, but what about the second group that appears to fight them?

 

I know that in one place at least Rand idly wondered what stopped one of the Forsaken from just opening up a gateway in the middle of 'the palace' and sending in thousands of Trollocs and Fades.

 

But this is a completely new concept to me. I haven't read KoD yet... but there's one refence that doesn't make sense to me, vs. the rest of the series. Do you have any links to where this has been discussed in greater detail?

[rd2000]

hmmm. If I write that I took a walk today. I saw many beautiful trees and singing birds and children playing. Would you assume that I took my walk outside? Or would you argue that because I didn't specifically say I was outside, that I might have been indoors? And then argue endlessly on that miniscule possibility?

 

Or would it be obvious to you that I went outdoors? That it was so obvious, it went without needing to be said?

 

That is how I feel about this arguement. It is so obvious that "Deathgates" are nothing more than mobile, opening and closing gateways that it goes without having to say so. RJ assumes his readers to have a minimum amount of ability to reason things like this out. There is more than enough description in the passage to reason this out.

 

*Thor, it says in the passage that people all over would find dead shadowspawn without a mark on them. The Deathgates open and close continuously as they move, each opening and closing being a different, random destination. If the deathgates were skimming portals, the bodies would stay in the black limbo space that skimming portals open into.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Do you have any links to where this has been discussed in greater detail?

 

Not really, its only in hints and teases until Rand comes right out and says it in KoD (which you really should read :D ), but one such hint that makes much more sense now is from this pre-KoD interview:

 

Week 14 Question: Military strategy in the War of Power must have been odd, indeed. How do the concepts of capturing and holding territory even make sense in a world where forces can Travel?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: Good question, though not all of the forces involved could use gateways. (Rafo! Rafo!)

 

from : http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152

 

It seems the Forsaken are very good at hiding large numbers of Trollocs. Using methods like the one you mentioned about the grain barges.

[Guest Wynne Jessal]

its only in hints and teases until Rand comes right out and says it in KoD (which you really should read :D )' date=' but one such hint that makes much more sense now is from this pre-KoD interview:

 

Week 14 Question: Military strategy in the War of Power must have been odd, indeed. How do the concepts of capturing and holding territory even make sense in a world where forces can Travel?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: Good question, though not all of the forces involved could use gateways. (Rafo! Rafo!)

 

Thanks... actually, now that I have had time to recover my shock and confusion (and WHY couldn't they survive? I don't get it...) I think it serves to explain why indeed the palace isn't continuously being inundated with shadowspawn attacks.

 

Though maybe RJ just thought to add that in to stave off such questions.

 

re: KOD. I am working on it! I am re-reading the series, as I'm always nattering on about, and I'm getting there. I've read all the books through ACoS many times and know them pretty well, but from APoD on, I can hardly remember anything. I'm on APoD now, so I'm getting closer. 8)

[RobertAlexWillis]

and WHY couldn't they survive? I don't get it

 

I speculate that it has to do with their souls not being firmly "attached" to their bodies, since they are constructs made using the True Power, which is anathema to the Pattern. So, when they exit the Pattern for the infinitesimal instant that it takes to pass through the void bridged by a gateway, their soul doesn't "stay attached".

 

Thats PURE speculation though.