Teaching male weaves

[Guest Hanyo]

Reading some books simultaneously (KoD & FoH), I am wondering about the way male channelers are taught.

 

In FoH Ch. 3, Asmodean said to Rand "Do you think Lanfear really intended me to teach you everything? If she had wanted, she would have contrived to stay close so she could link us."

If I remember correct, Male AS cannot see weaves of other male channelers (I think I read it more than once).

So I guess, the best way is to link with a female AS to learn the weaves in some other way.

 

In KoD Ch. 19, Rand is destroying the trolloc raid with weaves made by LTT (..my hands, i can't see my hands...) and some Asha'man are copying the weaves just by seeing them.

 

Am I the only one thinking this a caveat?

Or is there already an explanation I missed due to my poor searching skills?

 

(Sorry for grammar & spelling, I am no native english speaker)

[herid]

You are just remembering incorrectly. It's never mentioned anywhere that male channelers can't see each other's weaves. Quite the opposite. The example you mentioned from KoD is just one of many. Say, when Rand was watching Ashaman learn to channel in the Black Tower:

 

“Now,” Taim said, and Rand felt Damer seize saidin, saw him inexpertly weave Fire and Earth.

--LoC, Ch 11

There are many many more. Rand showing Taim how to make gateways, Ashaman fighting with him in tPoD and so on.

You might be remembering something else, like the fact that male channelers can't feel the ability and the potential of other male channelers the way Aes Sedai do.

 

But Asmodean had a good point. Lanfear could have linked with Rand and him and passed the control to Asmodean. This would allow Asmodean to channel with sufficient strength (through Rand) despite his shield and show Rand anything he wanted. Egwene did just that in tGS when she could hardly channel herself because of forkroot. Of course, Lanfear likely didn't trust either of them enough to do that.

[Whizbang]

Asmo didn't have the strength to do more than very simple weaves, so he could not, say, weave a gateway (and evidently he didn't have the skill to weave one that fails, like Soriela did to show Cadsuane). He could not weave more than the simplest, weakest weaves/webs. So, he was limited much the same way that Mogi was when in the A'dam. He had to describe them, describe the theory, maybe say something like "Take a thread of fire and wrap it around a thread of Air, then do a kind of double cross-over with some water, then bundle that all into a tight spiral, lace it all with spirit that kinda makes a star pattern, then collapse the whole thing into a single point and release quickly while pumping spirit into the point."

 

Then Rand says, "... Uh... So I take fire, right, and do what?"

[Amandera]

I can't remember where I read this, and I remember pretty vaguely so this could be completely false so someone correct me if you remember something like this. I'll look for it myself. But I think being in circles speeds up a channeler controlled by others to reach his or her potential.

 

Of course, a circle of Asmodean, Rand and Lanfear with Asmodean controlling the flows means both Lanfear and Rand would be helpless as babies. I can't see how either would be willing to do that.

 

 

Somewhat related, when linked with Nynaeve in WH, Rand seems to see the flows of saidar he weaves, at least he describes the weave. They don't form like he wants, but that's probably Rand's inexperience. Also, when Semirhage puts the Domination Band on Rand's neck, she knows how to weave saidin. When you put the two together, I don't understand why a woman can't teach a man or vice versa. They use cross-gender circles extensively in AoL, so Aes Sedai of both genders should know something of handling saidin and saidar. Can't they just show the weaves to each other?

[MasterAblar]

I can't remember where I read this, and I remember pretty vaguely so this could be completely false so someone correct me if you remember something like this. I'll look for it myself. But I think being in circles speeds up a channeler controlled by others to reach his or her potential.

 

Of course, a circle of Asmodean, Rand and Lanfear with Asmodean controlling the flows means both Lanfear and Rand would be helpless as babies. I can't see how either would be willing to do that.

 

 

Somewhat related, when linked with Nynaeve in WH, Rand seems to see the flows of saidar he weaves, at least he describes the weave. They don't form like he wants, but that's probably Rand's inexperience. Also, when Semirhage puts the Domination Band on Rand's neck, she knows how to weave saidin. When you put the two together, I don't understand why a woman can't teach a man or vice versa. They use cross-gender circles extensively in AoL, so Aes Sedai of both genders should know something of handling saidin and saidar. Can't they just show the weaves to each other?

 

In theory they can, but it's pretty clear that it's somewhat against their instincts. Like you said Rand was suprised by how the weaves of saidar came together, and even Semirhage thought the way saidin was weaved was strange. Ideally it's better to have a man teach a man and a woman teach woman, if possible in a circle, simply because they know how to do it better.

[Whizbang]

They probably could show the weaves to each other, if they are linked, which is the point. Yes, maybe a woman could teach a man in the AoL, but not in Randland today, I mean back then, or at least when it will happen (in the past-future, anyway {Damn this time wheel screwing up references to events}). Although, I do not think a woman could help teach a man to sieze Saidin. Also, placing yourself in a circle means you trust the leader of the circle not to turn around and blast you with your own power.

 

Also, I bet the way Rand wove Saidar, even though it looked different than how he would have done it with Saidin, would be different than how a woman would do the same thing. The mentalities are just so different. Saidar may force a more flowery weave, but that doesn't mean a man will weave the same flowery weaves a woman would. Also, I get the impression that Rand was still channeling mostly instinctually/subconciously up until Veins of Gold. LTT knew how to weave Saidar, Rand did not. I bet it was LTT doing the weaving.

[herid]

I can't remember where I read this, and I remember pretty vaguely so this could be completely false so someone correct me if you remember something like this. I'll look for it myself. But I think being in circles speeds up a channeler controlled by others to reach his or her potential.

I don't remember seeing this. Could you please look it up? It's certainly not forcing. The Aes Sedai in Salidar had no qualms about teaching novices to link and then using them in circles during a bubble of evil (LoC, ch 14).

[Amandera]

I can't remember where I read this, and I remember pretty vaguely so this could be completely false so someone correct me if you remember something like this. I'll look for it myself. But I think being in circles speeds up a channeler controlled by others to reach his or her potential.

 

Of course, a circle of Asmodean, Rand and Lanfear with Asmodean controlling the flows means both Lanfear and Rand would be helpless as babies. I can't see how either would be willing to do that.

 

 

Somewhat related, when linked with Nynaeve in WH, Rand seems to see the flows of saidar he weaves, at least he describes the weave. They don't form like he wants, but that's probably Rand's inexperience. Also, when Semirhage puts the Domination Band on Rand's neck, she knows how to weave saidin. When you put the two together, I don't understand why a woman can't teach a man or vice versa. They use cross-gender circles extensively in AoL, so Aes Sedai of both genders should know something of handling saidin and saidar. Can't they just show the weaves to each other?

 

In theory they can, but it's pretty clear that it's somewhat against their instincts. Like you said Rand was suprised by how the weaves of saidar came together, and even Semirhage thought the way saidin was weaved was strange. Ideally it's better to have a man teach a man and a woman teach woman, if possible in a circle, simply because they know how to do it better.

They probably could show the weaves to each other, if they are linked, which is the point. Yes, maybe a woman could teach a man in the AoL, but not in Randland today, I mean back then, or at least when it will happen (in the past-future, anyway {Damn this time wheel screwing up references to events}). Although, I do not think a woman could help teach a man to sieze Saidin. Also, placing yourself in a circle means you trust the leader of the circle not to turn around and blast you with your own power.

 

Also, I bet the way Rand wove Saidar, even though it looked different than how he would have done it with Saidin, would be different than how a woman would do the same thing. The mentalities are just so different. Saidar may force a more flowery weave, but that doesn't mean a man will weave the same flowery weaves a woman would. Also, I get the impression that Rand was still channeling mostly instinctually/subconciously up until Veins of Gold. LTT knew how to weave Saidar, Rand did not. I bet it was LTT doing the weaving.

Thanks. So, post-VoG Rand could probably show a few things to female channelers. Though it would be weird after all the talk of birds being unable to teach fish.

 

I can't remember where I read this, and I remember pretty vaguely so this could be completely false so someone correct me if you remember something like this. I'll look for it myself. But I think being in circles speeds up a channeler controlled by others to reach his or her potential.

I don't remember seeing this. Could you please look it up? It's certainly not forcing. The Aes Sedai in Salidar had no qualms about teaching novices to link and then using them in circles during a bubble of evil (LoC, ch 14).

I have been, frantically, since I posted that. I can't find anything in the books and BWB. But I think I remember something about it now. I may have read it here on Theoryland. I think it was a theory by someone to explain the rapid growth of Taim's lackeys in strength and the nature of his special classes. Asmodean's circle thing was mentioned but besides that I don't remember any evidence or objections to it. There may have been none for all I know. This is the best I can do unless I somehow manage to find that post but I don't remember keywords to search either. Actually, I can't even say for certain whether that post exists or my memory is playing tricks on me.

[Knivy]

Well, forcing in a circle isn't dangerous. Where forcing is dangerous is when it burns out/kills the forcee, which is prevented in a circle.

[herid]

forcing doesn't mean making someone channel more power than it's safe to do. from the glossary:

 

forcing; forced: When someone with the ability to channel handles as much of the One Power as they can over long periods of time and channels continually, they learn faster and gain strength more rapidly. This is called forcing, or being forced, by Aes Sedai, who abjure the practice with novices and Accepted because of the danger of death or being burned out.

[Knivy]

The negative effects are from overdrawing, which is more likely when forcing.

[herid]

sorry, you are quite right and you are right about being in a circle then. It might technically qualify as forcing per the glossary definition but since it's not dangerous it should not matter.

[Knivy]

It is the same reason the Seanchan dont worry about it.