The Big Speculation

[RobertAlexWillis]

Please give some examples.

 

My pleasure.

 

"Twice and twice shall he be marked,

twice to live and twice to die.

Once the heron, to set his path.

Twice the heron, to name him true.

Once the Dragon, for remembrance lost.

Twice the Dragon, for the price he must pay."

 

Two herons on his palms, one, from the battle at the Eye, set his path, the second, from the battle at Falme, in which he was named publicly by the Pattern as the true Dragon. Two Dragons on his arms, the first for remembrance lost (which all the chiefs get) and the second for the price he must pay (as Car'a'carn).

 

"On the slopes of Dragonmount shall he be born, born of a maiden wedded to no man."

 

Rand al'Thor was literally born on those slopes, to a Maiden who was, at the time, unwedded to any man.

 

"Five ride forth, four return. Above the watchers shall he proclaim himself, bannered cross the sky in fire."

 

Five rode forth, and only four returned. Rand was literally seen in the sky, above Falme, the home of Do'miere Avron, the Watchers over the Waves.

 

"Power of the Shadow made human flesh,

wakened to turmoil, strife, and ruin.

The Reborn One, marked and bleeding,

dances the sword in dreams and mist,

chains the Shadowsworn to his will,

from the city, lost and forsaken,

leads the spears to war once more,

breaks the spears and makes them see,

truth long hidden in the ancient dream."

 

Asmodean, one of the Forsaken, who literally have the Power of the Shadow bonded to their human flesh, awakened to cause turmoil, strife, and ruin. Rand al'Thor, with all four marks in place and bleeding from his side, fought battles both in his dreams, and in the mist of Rhuidean, and chained Asmodean to his will. From Rhuidean, the city lost and forsaken, Rand lead the spears of the Aiel forth to war, and broke them by showing them the truth that was hidden for a long time in what was both an ancient dream of their people, and seen in dreams anciently.

 

"Into the heart he thrusts his sword,

into the heart, to hold their hearts.

Who draws it out shall follow after,

What hand can grasp that fearful blade?"

 

Rand literally thrust Callandor into the Heart of the Stone to hold the hearts of the Tairens. Narishma, who drew it out, has always followed Rand faithfully, including using Callandor safely at the Cleansing.

 

"The unstained tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign."

 

The White Tower split, and members of both factions literally knelt before the Banner of Light at Dumai's Wells and swore fealty to the Dragon.

 

Those are just the examples from direct quotes from the Kraethon Cycle. There are more from Min's viewings, including one that references the "red on black" directly, like this (From The Eye of the World, chapter 15, Strangers and Friends)

 

A sword that isn't a sword, a golden crown of laurel leaves, a beggar's staff, you pouring water on sand, a bloody hand and white-hot iron, three women standing over a funeral bier with you on it, black rock wet with blood, lightning around you, some striking at you, some coming out of you. You and I will meet again.

 

Thats the very first reading we have of Rand by Min. Notice the bold (which I added) specifically stated the black is rock, and that it is wet with blood.

 

Not every prophecy is completely literal, but a whole lot of them are.

[Leopoled Boothe]

RobertAlexWillis, thanks for all the examples. It seems that the Kraethon Cycle is indeed more litteral than the average prophecy. However, I am still not convinced that the term "dawns" litteraly refers to sunrise, just as in the verse,

 

Into the heart he thrusts his sword

Into the heart to hold their hearts

 

the world "heart" does not literally refer the the biological blood pumping organ. However, to someone who didn't know better it might seem as though he was actully going to stab someone in the heart.

 

Similarly the verse,

 

On the slopes of Dragonmount shall he be born, born to a maiden wed to no man.

 

could easly be interpreted to mean that the DR would be born out of wedlock to a young woman. However, we know that there is much more to it than that as the term "Maiden" referse specifically to a Maiden of the Spear and "Wed to no man" refers to the fact that she is wed to the spear. I guess in this case the verse is much more literal than one would initally expect, however, the point is that certain words in the K-Cycle do no mean what one might think they mean. Therefore, I still think that "dawn" could refer to something other than sunrise, though what that might be I have no idea.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[/i]

[RobertAlexWillis]

the world "heart" does not literally refer the the biological blood pumping organ.

 

But it does refer to a place literally called "the Heart". The passing of a cloud or an eclipse is not ever called "the dawn".

 

On the slopes of Dragonmount shall he be born, born to a maiden wed to no man.

 

Some words do have multiple meanings. However, events did occur exactly as predicted.

 

the point is that certain words in the K-Cycle do no mean what one might think they mean.

 

While that is quite true, unless you can point to a phenomenon normally referred to as "dawn" other than the beginning of a new day, I'm still holding out for some kind of time-slip. Eclipses and cloud cover don't cut it.

 

That said, I agree with Iceman that balefire couldn't cause that effect. Balefire burns individual threads back in time, it doesn't cause time to move backwards. I think it will have to do with what Rand does inside the Dark One's Prison (which is outside of time), not balefire. We have no precendent for how things that happen in the Prison affect the Wheel, and RJ has hinted that we might get to see it.

[Mat is the Boss]

The fact that the Dragon also is called Prince of Dawn, and He Who Comes With The Dawn, suggest to me that it will be after Rand defeat the DO, and removes an unatural shadow over the land, like dawn after the darkest of nights. For all I know, the time of the day when Rand defeats the DO could be dawn. The shadow could have hung over the world for days, I don`t know how long the Last Battle is going to last.

[Aleksandar]

Could it be as simple as its not the same day?

[Leopoled Boothe]

While that is quite true, unless you can point to a phenomenon normally referred to as "dawn" other than the beginning of a new day, I'm still holding out for some kind of time-slip. Eclipses and cloud cover don't cut it.

 

In the english lauange there are several. When anthropologists refer to the "Dawn of Man" they do not mean the begining of a new day. I find if very unlikly that the first human evolved right at first light one day LOL. Morover, the realization of a new idea is also refered to as dawn as in "Thanks to Robs examples it suddenly dawned on me that the K-cycle is more litteral than the average prophecy." Then of couse anyone who lived through the 60's is well aware of the "Dawning of the age of Aquarius."

 

But on a more serious note I must point out that dawn and sunrise are not one and the same. According to Websters dawn is defined as "to begin to be day, to grow light." From personal experience I know that it usually begins to grow light well before the sun actually rises. So if "to grow light" is the only qualification then cloud cover or an eclipse would fit the bill in their own way, though I hope RJ has something more clever than that up his sleeve.

 

 

That said, I agree with Iceman that balefire couldn't cause that effect. Balefire burns individual threads back in time, it doesn't cause time to move backwards.

 

I couldn't agree more. Nothing good could possibly come from balefiring the entire pattern.

 

 

I think it will have to do with what Rand does inside the Dark One's Prison (which is outside of time), not balefire. We have no precendent for how things that happen in the Prison affect the Wheel, and RJ has hinted that we might get to see it.

 

I think that is very plausable, and very cool to boot. Still I hope the double dawn is just a side effect of Rand and Shai'tan's battle outside of time. I will be very disapointed if Rand uses being outside of time as a way of entering the Pattern at an earlier point in history and preventing something from happening. As I said it always feels like a cop-out when this sort of plot device is used.

[RobertAlexWillis]

In the english lauange there are several. When anthropologists refer to the "Dawn of Man" they do not mean the begining of a new day. I find if very unlikly that the first human evolved right at first light one day LOL. Morover, the realization of a new idea is also refered to as dawn as in "Thanks to Robs examples it suddenly dawned on me that the K-cycle is more litteral than the average prophecy." Then of couse anyone who lived through the 60's is well aware of the "Dawning of the age of Aquarius."

 

But on a more serious note I must point out that dawn and sunrise are not one and the same. According to Websters dawn is defined as "to begin to be day, to grow light." From personal experience I know that it usually begins to grow light well before the sun actually rises. So if "to grow light" is the only qualification then cloud cover or an eclipse would fit the bill in their own way, though I hope RJ has something more clever than that up his sleeve.

 

That's not too bad. I still don't buy the cloud bank thing, or even an eclipse ... but that was a good response.

[Leopoled Boothe]

That's not too bad. I still don't buy the cloud bank thing, or even an eclipse ... but that was a good response.

 

Thanks. I don't buy the cloud bank or the eclipse either. Of course I'm not sold on the literal interpretation of the word, dawn, either (but you already knew that). Honestly, I think RJ has something really clever up his sleeve. What that could be, well I think we'll just have to RAFO.

[ASHAMAN1282083201]

a wast the prophecy twice dawns the day whe his blood was shed or something

 

it could be two diffrent days

[Myyrth]

I really think Rand just ends up dying. boo hoo, but this book is starting to feel enough like an ancient hero epic that I would be okay with Rand kicking the bucket in a suitably heroic fashion.

 

Either that or RJ better come up with a damn good and clever reason he lives.

[Guest Barmacral]

Can Rand handle that much of the power on his own? I get the impression that The only reason he survived using the Choedan Kal in Rhuidean is because he was only using half of it, and the only reason for surviving the end of book 9 was because he was linked to Nyneave.

 

Part of the reason for this impression is because Verin (or was it Selene) in TGH comments on how Logain would have trouble just controlling that amount of the power, let alone using it, and Logain isn't all that much weaker than Rand.

[Myyrth]

*shudder* what of LTT took the power from Rand when he tried to take hold of Saidin through the Choeden Kal.

 

Imaginge LTT killing himself with the power by overdrawing through the most powerful male Sa'angreal in existance!

 

He created a mountain the last time... how bout now *shiver*.

[DocBean]

Actually' date=' this is one of the biggest problems I have with the whole body switch thing. I feel pretty sure that Min's viewings would not see Moridin dying in Rand's body as Rand dying. But thats just my opinion. I'm a fan of the "Rand dies, time goes backwards for a bit, Rand is not dead" theory. After all, "twice dawns the day when his blood is shed". Best way I can think for that to happen is for Rand to take a trip into the Prison, duke it out with Shai'tan on his own turf, then make it back into the Pattern at a different "point" in space-time. There are problems with that, too, though. I'm actually hoping Jordan will surprise the crap out of me.[/quote']

 

I've always thought the "twice dawns the day when his blood is shed", and "moon by day, sun by night" indicates that there will be an eclipse during the last battle.

[Guest cwestervelt]

*shudder* what of LTT took the power from Rand when he tried to take hold of Saidin through the Choeden Kal.

 

Imaginge LTT killing himself with the power by overdrawing through the most powerful male Sa'angreal in existance!

 

He created a mountain the last time... how bout now *shiver*.

 

You can't overdose when using an Angreal or Sa'angreal because they are buffered to prevent that from happening. Callandor is the exception to the rule as it wasn't made right.

[DocBean]

Would anyone else be ticked off if the original theory on this forum comes true????

 

Luc and Isam merged to create Slayer

Fain and the Shadar Logath guy merged

the DO has put Forsaken souls into countless other bodies.

 

now we're saying Morridin, LTT, and Rand will Merge or swap?

 

I don't know.

maybe, but I hope not. why can't people just live in their own bodies?

 

I'm still hoping that to live you must die, and the puppet Rand body, means Rand will fake his Death with the help of Alivia, but the more I read these forums the more I think my theory is too simple, and probably wrong.

[DocBean]

*shudder* what of LTT took the power from Rand when he tried to take hold of Saidin through the Choeden Kal.

 

Imaginge LTT killing himself with the power by overdrawing through the most powerful male Sa'angreal in existance!

 

He created a mountain the last time... how bout now *shiver*.

 

You can't overdose when using an Angreal or Sa'angreal because they are buffered to prevent that from happening. Callandor is the exception to the rule as it wasn't made right.

 

I don't know about overdosing, but you can stretch them too far. We saw that with the Bowl of the Winds, it was never made to be used with so much power, or by Windfinders who have an unheard of talent for messing with the weather. The result messed up the One Power for quite a distance, and for quite a while around Ebu Dar. We also saw the chodan Kal break when it was overused, but I'm not sure what happened afterwards. Maybe that's what the shimmering in KoD was. So what could happen if the other key is stretched too far?

[Myyrth]

I thought the buffer just prevented you from unintentionally drawing to much, what if u really wanted to die and overdrew just like one would without an angreal.