Origins of the gholam

[Veracohr]

In my current re-read I just finished the scene in aCoS where Mat first encounters the gholam. Something in the description triggered an idle thought on how exactly Aginor created the gholam.

 

It seems obvious in the case of the Trollocs that they were mere human/animal hybrid experiments, although the abilities of the Myrdraal that sprang from them don't follow logically.

 

The thing that triggered the thought was the description of the gholam as tall, slender and moving like a snake. This made me think of the Aelfinn. And there's the matter of the gholam being made to kill channelers, and how much it relishes doing so. Wasn't there something about how the Aelfinn/Eelfinn got a certain sensation around channelers? I don't remember enough details to know where to look it up. And of course there's there's the fact of OP weaves not touching the gholam, the same as with Mat's ter'angreal, although that was given to him by the Eelfinn, not the Aelfinn.

 

Regardless, it made me idly consider if Aginor had created the gholam by incorporating aspects of the Aelfinn, and using knowledge of the Eelfinn's ability to make/provide OP-negating devices.

[nolirion]

The Foxhead medallion is not a creation of the Aelfin nor the Eelfinn , it is an ancient Aes'Sedai ter'Angreal , the Eelfinn probably got it in a trade with Aes'Sedai from the age of legend . The Aelfin or Eelfinn are not able to channel but know how to use channelers .

It is interesting to think Aginor studied the Aelfin or Eelfinn , but the ability of the gholam is much more similar to that of a Myrdraal then to an Aelfinn or Eelfinn .

The gholam "liking" killing channelers is a byproduct of it purpose , the Aelfinn and Eelfinn enjoy the sensation and as the Saïdin or Saïdar enhance perception of the channelers their might be a link there .

[Luckers]

The Foxhead medallion is not a creation of the Aelfin nor the Eelfinn , it is an ancient Aes'Sedai ter'Angreal , the Eelfinn probably got it in a trade with Aes'Sedai from the age of legend . The Aelfin or Eelfinn are not able to channel but know how to use channelers .

 

That the Foxhead was made by Aes Sedai is accurate, the one point I would make is that given ter'angreal of that style were unknown in the Age of Legends, it's likely that like Nynaeve and Cadsuane's, the Foxhead was made during the Breaking of the World. There was more than enough travel through the Tower of Ghenjei between the Breaking and the War of the Hundred Years to get it into Finn hands.

[Ferdawoon]

The Foxhead medallion is not a creation of the Aelfin nor the Eelfinn , it is an ancient Aes'Sedai ter'Angreal , the Eelfinn probably got it in a trade with Aes'Sedai from the age of legend . The Aelfin or Eelfinn are not able to channel but know how to use channelers .

 

That the Foxhead was made by Aes Sedai is accurate, the one point I would make is that given ter'angreal of that style were unknown in the Age of Legends, it's likely that like Nynaeve and Cadsuane's, the Foxhead was made during the Breaking of the World. There was more than enough travel through the Tower of Ghenjei between the Breaking and the War of the Hundred Years to get it into Finn hands.

Or in a previous turning of the wheel. Dont have to be in this turning =)

[Veracohr]

The Foxhead medallion is not a creation of the Aelfin nor the Eelfinn , it is an ancient Aes'Sedai ter'Angreal , the Eelfinn probably got it in a trade with Aes'Sedai from the age of legend .

That the Foxhead was made by Aes Sedai is accurate, the one point I would make is that given ter'angreal of that style were unknown in the Age of Legends...There was more than enough travel through the Tower of Ghenjei between the Breaking and the War of the Hundred Years to get it into Finn hands.

 

Just curious: where do you get such information?

[Luckers]

The Foxhead medallion is not a creation of the Aelfin nor the Eelfinn , it is an ancient Aes'Sedai ter'Angreal , the Eelfinn probably got it in a trade with Aes'Sedai from the age of legend . The Aelfin or Eelfinn are not able to channel but know how to use channelers .

 

That the Foxhead was made by Aes Sedai is accurate, the one point I would make is that given ter'angreal of that style were unknown in the Age of Legends, it's likely that like Nynaeve and Cadsuane's, the Foxhead was made during the Breaking of the World. There was more than enough travel through the Tower of Ghenjei between the Breaking and the War of the Hundred Years to get it into Finn hands.

Or in a previous turning of the wheel. Dont have to be in this turning =)

 

Possibly, though if so it is a whole new type of rare. For instance we've found no cuendillar in our own Age from previous turnings, and they are far more durable than ter'angreal. Though of course the Finns may have different cycles than the human world, perhaps with more sustainability between cycles--they do refer to their greatest members as 'the Near Ancient', so that's possible.

 

Still, odds are more likely that it comes from the much less temporally problematic point in history we know to have produced such artifacts.

 

The Foxhead medallion is not a creation of the Aelfin nor the Eelfinn , it is an ancient Aes'Sedai ter'Angreal , the Eelfinn probably got it in a trade with Aes'Sedai from the age of legend .

That the Foxhead was made by Aes Sedai is accurate, the one point I would make is that given ter'angreal of that style were unknown in the Age of Legends...There was more than enough travel through the Tower of Ghenjei between the Breaking and the War of the Hundred Years to get it into Finn hands.

 

Just curious: where do you get such information?

 

The bit about weave disrupting ter'angreal not being known in the Age of Legends we learned from Cyndane in Winter's Heart when she faced Alivia using Nynaeve's ter'angreal. The bit about travel through the Tower of Ghenjei is hinted at through the series, from the origins of Mat's memories, which is explained in KoD to come from men who had travelled through to Finnland, to Birgitte's references. The true clarification of it all, though, came from RJ...

 

Interview: Apr 20th, 2004

 

TOR Questions of the Week Part I (Verbatim)

Week 12 Question

 

You stated in another interview that Mat's memories came from adventurers who traveled through the ter'angreal. However several of Mat's memories end with the adventurer dying. Since adventurers probably didn't go through the ter'angreal after they died, how could the 'Finns have obtained these memories?

Robert Jordan

 

A good question. I was wondering when someone would ask that. I expected it as soon as Mat started revealing those old memories. At least a partial answer will be coming up in the next main sequence book, so I guess you could say this is a RAFO. But I will say that if I said those adventurers all entered through the two ter'angreal, I misspoke. A good many entered through the Tower of Ghenjei, which was more widely known in earlier years, if never exactly a household name.

 

Or did you mean where did I get that sort of information in general? The answer is, I'm Luckers, super geek. :P (More to the point, for resources to find knowledge... Theoryland's Interview Database is a good place, or the WoTFAQ, which I had a hand in updating following tGS. Linda's Thirteenth Depository is another good resource, as is the Encyclopaedia WoT. You can google any of those, but they are linked in a thread at the top of the board under Online Resources)

[jsbrads]

of course gholam are not tall, they are average height

[Veracohr]

Not overly tall, but it said he was of a height with Mat, which is tall in some lands.

[Veracohr]

Or did you mean where did I get that sort of information in general?

 

I just meant that I've read the series plenty of times, although the latest few not as many, and I just don't remember reading some of the things you seem confident in saying. Some comments I see people make here kind of seems like they're inventing their own details when the books only provide limited details on a given subject, but then again I haven't read any of the RJ interviews and such stuff.

[bsmnt23]

 

It seems obvious in the case of the Trollocs that they were mere human/animal hybrid experiments, although the abilities of the Myrdraal that sprang from them don't follow logically.

 

 

The abilities of the Myrdraal are sort of plot-driven, but I read (golly, I dont even know offhand) that the percentage of Myrdraal births are about 3% in the trolloc population. (Though I'm not sure if the other, more animal mutation births affect that stat). It's interesting that the 3% mirrors the birth rate of people who are born with the ability to channel.

 

This could be nothing, of course, but it is interesting. I feel we just dont know enough about the process by wich Aginor created his abominations. We do know that he made the good Doctors Mengle and Moreau look like Dr Seuse and we know that literaly hundreds of millions of people were subjected to his experiments.

 

The series has mentioned several items and other lifeforms that have been created by the One Power and some that were created by the True Power. The game board that was described as a being made from another human was one. I like to think that maybe Aginor used specificaly those who could channel in his experiments. There was a word I encountered in David Drake's Honor Harrington series: Meyerdahl beta. I get nothing when I google it, and I certainly dont have enough knowlege in genetics to know if this is a real thing in genetics. But the similarity between the genetic process in the Honorverse and the genetic accident/abomination/accidental unacounted anomaly in the WoT are pretty interesting.

[Luckers]

Or did you mean where did I get that sort of information in general?

 

I just meant that I've read the series plenty of times, although the latest few not as many, and I just don't remember reading some of the things you seem confident in saying. Some comments I see people make here kind of seems like they're inventing their own details when the books only provide limited details on a given subject, but then again I haven't read any of the RJ interviews and such stuff.

 

Sometimes people do invent stuff, though usually through misremembering an actual element of the books as opposed to simply making things up. It's rare though, and more often than not someone will point it out--it's always fine to ask where a persons claim comes from, provided you do it nicely.

 

That being said, between the Guide, the Glossaries and the Interviews there is ALOT of extra information out there. RJ was a cinematic writer, and usually had detailed explanations for everything, which are all well documented and recorded (there are over four million words of notes for the series). For that matter, whilst he never beat a person over the head with an answer, the information often WAS layered into the series, and there are fans with very detailed knowledge of the series.