AMOL worries

[Suttree]

Umm... no, she wasn't. They all took action. The other characters all snapped into action.

 

UMMMMMMMMM.... first of all - if you actually read what I wrote I said the first 30-50 pages. If she did something books later. Great.

 

As I've said, her running into her -

I'll be back. Have to close computer at work.

 

Perhaps you need to reread the chapter. Cads quite clearly took control and the lead. Not sure why you would even try to argue different regardless of whether you like the character...

 

ACoS

The only others still there were Cadsuane and her two companions, faces calm but hands running nervously over their shawls. Cadsuane herself might have been setting out for a stroll. "I should think north," she said. "The slope lies closer that way, and climbing may take us above this. Stop that caterwauling, Toram! Either your man’s dead, or he can’t hear." Toram glared at her, but he did stop shouting. Cadsuane did not appear to notice or care, so long as he was silent. "North, then. We three will take care of anything your steel can’t handle." She looked straight at Rand when she said that, and he gave a whisker of a nod before buckling his sword belt and drawing his blade. Trying not to goggle, Min exchanged glances with Caraline; the other woman’s eyes looked as large as teacups. The Aes Sedai knew who he was, and she was going to keep anyone else from knowing.

 

"I wish we had not left our Warders back in the city," the slim Yellow sister said. Tiny silver bells in her dark hair chimed as she tossed her head. She had almost as commanding an air as Cadsuane, enough that you did not realize how pretty she was at first, except that that toss of her head seemed... well... a touch petulant. "I wish I had Roshan here."

 

"A circle, Cadsuane?" the Gray asked. Head turning this way and that to peer at the fog, she looked like a plump, pale-haired sparrow with her sharp nose and inquisitive eyes. Not a frightened sparrow, but one definitely ready to take wing. "Should we link?"

 

"No, Niande," Cadsuane sighed. "If you see something, you must be able to strike at it without waiting to point it out for me. Samitsu, stop worrying about Roshan. We have three fine swords here, two of them heron-mark, I see. They will do."

 

Toram showed his teeth on seeing the heron engraved on the blade Rand had unsheathed. If it was a smile, it held no mirth. His own bared blade bore a heron, too. Darlin’s did not, but he gave Rand and his sword a weighing look, then a respectful nod that was considerably deeper than he had offered plain Tomas Trakand, of a minor branch of the House.

 

The gray-haired Green had taken charge, clearly, and she kept it despite attempted protests from Darlin, who like many Tairens seemed not to relish Aes Sedai a great deal, and Toram, who just seemed to dislike anyone giving orders but himself. For that matter, so did Caraline, but Cadsuane ignored her frowns as completely as she did the men’s voiced complaints. Unlike them, Caraline appeared to realize complaints would do no good. Wonder of wonders, Rand meekly let himself be placed to Cadsuane’s right as she quickly arranged everyone.... They moved into the thick mist in a formation like a six-pointed star, Cadsuane herself in the lead, an Aes Sedai at each of two other points, a man with a sword at three. Toram, of course, protested loudly at bringing up the rear until Cadsuane mentioned the honor of the rear guard or some such. That quieted him down.

[thisguy]

First off, very well put and I do agree with your description of her reasons for behaving like that. My problem with her method is that there is a discrepancy between her objectives and her method. Her methods were used in order to earn Rands respect but not his trust which doesn’t resonate well with what she wanted to teach him.

 

Here is how I see Cadsuanes roll in the series. She saw that the way Rand were handling his feelings would not only be unhealthy to him but dangerous for the outcome of the last battle. There is really only one way of helping with a problem like that and that is by earning his trust. For all Cadsuanes plans (which you proved were well thought out and well executed) she did earn his respect but not his trust. He listened to her logic but not to her wisdom if that makes any sense.

 

In order to give myself a little credibility I use exhibit A; Tam. Rand completely trust his dad and do listen to his wisdom. It only took one scene until Tam had successfully countered all Rands fears and doubts about the outcome of the last battle and Rand started to feel a glimpse of hope (something Cadsuane never could inspire him to feel). It was only until Tam mentioned Cadsuanes name that the reunion went from ‘yaaaay-my-dad-is-here’ to ‘I’m-gonna-balefire-you-out-off- the-pattern-dad’. Rands reaction clearly showed how little he trusted Cadsuane and if she’s involved in any way he can’t trust it. It wouldn’t matter one bit how well Cadsuane would lay out her arguments to Rand he still wouldn’t take it into his heart like he did with Tam. Their whole relationship is completely off balance.

Oh I don't think Cadsuane would disagree with you here. Ask, and I'm sure she'd love to have been able to appraoch him and just talk in a normal way. But she couldn't, due to past events. Which is why she is so monumentally pissed at people like Elaida and Moiraine. They mishandled Rand, making it certain that he would mistrust and disrespect all Aes Sedai on sight. Heck, he got to the point of thinking Egwene would unleash Semirhage on him to spite him!

My whole point is if Cadsuane wanted to be an advisor to Rand, her method really worked well. However if she wanted to give Rand hope, make him connect with his feelings etc. etc., then no, she used wrong tools. By behaving like she did Rand respected her and would listen to logically, well-reasoned advice but he wouldn’t let her guide him.

I don't think Cadsuane ever intended herself to be the source of wisdom, though she did try now and then. She was well aware Rand didn't trust her, and if you read her PoV in CoT, she seems clear that she needs other inroads to change that aspect of Rand.

 

I'm on my way to work and can't go through this yet all the way, but from the bottom up: no, she did not make it clear to Rand until sometime after the fog incident. She just came storming into his rooms while he was talking with Berelain without permission; which I find funny as she's a stickler for manners.

 

She is not. Cadsuane doesn't give a damn about manners. She constantly pricks people's bubbles and pushes into their comfort zone with no care for personal space or the sensibilities of others. Cadsuane has a near Talent for rudeness and no real skill at diplomacy, as she herself acknowledges. That you think her rules for Rand's behavior has anything to do with her own preferences shows how little you understand the character.

 

Rand was not a tyrant when Cads came through. In fact, a great argument could be made that he ruled people better than their rulers. He made all the nobles have to follow the same laws with the same repercussions as the commoners. He made sure people were fed and safer than their own nobles could make them. In fact, the council in Illian give him the crown they say because he sent grain from Tear so their people didn't starve. If he became tyrannical, it wasn't until AFTER Cadsuane came into his life. Just to be clear, I'm not blaming her for that, I'm putting the timeline in correct order.

What you're saying is that Rand was a good tyrant. He used the terror his position and power caused in the nobles to force them to his view, which was that nobles can't kill normal people. The point is not what he forced people to do, its how he did it. He threatened to hang them. He didn't work to convince them. He didn't even manipulate them.

 

If you think the Rand of tGS came about suddenly, you're wrong. There was a gradual change in him till he got there, and by aCoS the signs were there for all to see, most certainly for someone like Cadsuane.

No, her kind did nothing of the sort. They came in reasonable from the Tower but not honest.

You're restating exactly what I said, but seem to think you're disagreeing with me...

As I've mentioned in the post above, Cadsuane did not tell Rand her intentions when she first came into his rooms. In fact, she was rude (She likes to shove his manners in his face) and didn't even know about the AS from the Tower sticking him in a box.

Yes. I beleive the reason she came in seeking to provoke him was made clear by Suttree's quote.

 

Cadsuane shook her head in pitying style. "If you want to see what a man is made of, push him from a direction he doesn't expect. There's good metal in that boy, I think, but he's going to be difficult." Steepling her fingers, she peered across them at the wall, musing to herself. "He has a rage in him fit to burn the world, and he holds it by a hair. Push him too far off balance .... Phaw! Al'Thor's not so hard yet as Logain Ablar or Mazrim Taim, but a hundred times as difficult, I fear." Hearing those three names together clove Merana's tongue to the

roof of her mouth.

 

Moreover, she didn't even try to find out until after the fog incident. She went in their with limited intel and didn't even try to get any - like a bull in a china shop. If any of the battle commanders did so before battle (unless they had no choice), we'd think they'd have done a bad job.

Yes... unfortunately for you, the first thing she did after meeting Rand was gather intel. Would you now concede she did a good job?

 

Before very long, Merana was glad to be sitting; before very long, she knew what laundry felt going

through the laundress's mangle. Cadsuane did all the questioning, dodging from topic to topic so you never

knew what was coming next. Corele held her peace except for chuckling now and then or shaking her head, and

Daigian did not even do that, of course. Merana caught the worst, her and Bera and Kiruna, yet Annoura was

certainly not spared.

Every time Berelain's advisor relaxed, thinking she was in the clear, Cadsuane skewered her anew.

The woman wanted to know everything, from the al'Thor boy's authority with the Aiel to why a Sea

Folk Wavemistress was anchored in the river, from whether Moiraine truly was dead to whether the boy really

had rediscovered Traveling and whether Berelain had bedded him or had any intention of it. What Cadsuane

thought of the answers was impossible to say, except once, when she learned that Alanna had bonded al'Thor,

and how. Her mouth compressed to a thin line and she frowned a hole though the wall, but while everyone else

expressed disgust, Merana thought of Cadsuane saying she had considered taking another Warder herself.

The answer was ignorance entirely too often to suit, but saying you did not know failed to quench

Cadsuane's appetite; she required every last shred and particle you did know, even if you did not know you

knew it. They managed to keep a little back, most of what had to be kept back, yet a few surprising things came

out that way, some very surprising, even from Annoura, who, it turned out, had been receiving detailed letters

from Berelain almost from the day the girl rode north. Cadsuane demanded answers, but gave none, and that

worried Merana. She watched faces grow dogged and defensive and apologetic, and wondered whether her own

looked the same.

"Cadsuane." She had to make one more effort. "Cadsuane, why have you decided to take an interest in

him now?" An unblinking gaze met hers for a moment, then Cadsuane turned her attention to Bera and Kiruna.

"So they actually managed to kidnap him right out of the palace," the gray-haired woman said, holding

out her empty cup for Daigian to refill. No one else had been offered tea. Cadsuane's expression and tone were

so neutral that Merana wanted to tear her own hair. Al'Thor would not be pleased if he learned Kiruna had

revealed the kidnapping, however inadvertently; Cadsuane used any slip of your tongue to pry out more than

you meant to say. At least the details of bis treatment had not come out. He had made plain how displeased he

would be if that happened. Merana thanked the Light that the woman was not staying with any one subject for

long.

 

All Cadsuane found out after the fog incident was that Rand was put in a box. Important, but hardly game changing, compared to the kidnapping itself.

 

What's more, Rand was in no way unreasonable at this point. In fact, during the fog incident, Cadsuane tells him and the Lords with the swords that they'll basically use magic and they should use their swords. This was done in a way asking Rand not to use saidan. He nodded yes with no argument, quicker than I've seen most AS respond to a request or order. Rand goes overboard in the books to come but when Cads came around, he had a bad temper but treated people well. He took every death caused by him, whether his fault or not, onto his own shoulders. THAT was his biggest problem. Much of the anger stems from that, too.

This is plain fanboyism. Rand agreed not to reveal he was a male channeler to a bunch of people he was secretly trying to win over to his side? This is what passes for reasonable?

 

 

I guess that is why I have such a big problem understanding her course of action in her first scene. Oh, I do understand her reasons why (they are even spelled out in the book) but I definitely don’t agree with them. A first impression is very important (not only to the reader) and I don’t see why she wastes the opportunity by putting up a scene like that. She finds out what he’s made of, okay, but at the same time cement the relationship they can have. Either she should have made some of the other Aes Sedais do her dirty work (I know, not very noble but still) or she just have to find out the regular way; wait and see. She would very quickly see what kind of person Rand is due to the extreme situations he always ends up in. It’s as she expects that after the first meeting is over they start over on a new slate. No, they don’t. That first impression is now forever gone and Rand will have a very hard time changing his first impression of her. To me, that tactic only limits her set of tools and she doesn’t gain anything from it that she won’t be able to deduct later on.

 

The theory of Rand never going to trust an Aes Sedai so I can plot and scheme behind his back anyway is flawed in the way of self-fulfilling prophecies always are.

I completely agree.

[thisguy]

Umm... no, she wasn't. They all took action. The other characters all snapped into action.

 

UMMMMMMMMM.... first of all - if you actually read what I wrote I said the first 30-50 pages. If she did something books later. Great.

 

As I've said, her running into her -

I'll be back. Have to close computer at work.

 

Perhaps you need to reread the chapter. Cads quite clearly took control and the lead. Not sure why you would even try to argue different regardless of whether you like the character...

 

ACoS

The only others still there were Cadsuane and her two companions, faces calm but hands running nervously over their shawls. Cadsuane herself might have been setting out for a stroll. "I should think north," she said. "The slope lies closer that way, and climbing may take us above this. Stop that caterwauling, Toram! Either your man’s dead, or he can’t hear." Toram glared at her, but he did stop shouting. Cadsuane did not appear to notice or care, so long as he was silent. "North, then. We three will take care of anything your steel can’t handle." She looked straight at Rand when she said that, and he gave a whisker of a nod before buckling his sword belt and drawing his blade. Trying not to goggle, Min exchanged glances with Caraline; the other woman’s eyes looked as large as teacups. The Aes Sedai knew who he was, and she was going to keep anyone else from knowing.

 

"I wish we had not left our Warders back in the city," the slim Yellow sister said. Tiny silver bells in her dark hair chimed as she tossed her head. She had almost as commanding an air as Cadsuane, enough that you did not realize how pretty she was at first, except that that toss of her head seemed... well... a touch petulant. "I wish I had Roshan here."

 

"A circle, Cadsuane?" the Gray asked. Head turning this way and that to peer at the fog, she looked like a plump, pale-haired sparrow with her sharp nose and inquisitive eyes. Not a frightened sparrow, but one definitely ready to take wing. "Should we link?"

 

"No, Niande," Cadsuane sighed. "If you see something, you must be able to strike at it without waiting to point it out for me. Samitsu, stop worrying about Roshan. We have three fine swords here, two of them heron-mark, I see. They will do."

 

Toram showed his teeth on seeing the heron engraved on the blade Rand had unsheathed. If it was a smile, it held no mirth. His own bared blade bore a heron, too. Darlin’s did not, but he gave Rand and his sword a weighing look, then a respectful nod that was considerably deeper than he had offered plain Tomas Trakand, of a minor branch of the House.

 

The gray-haired Green had taken charge, clearly, and she kept it despite attempted protests from Darlin, who like many Tairens seemed not to relish Aes Sedai a great deal, and Toram, who just seemed to dislike anyone giving orders but himself. For that matter, so did Caraline, but Cadsuane ignored her frowns as completely as she did the men’s voiced complaints. Unlike them, Caraline appeared to realize complaints would do no good. Wonder of wonders, Rand meekly let himself be placed to Cadsuane’s right as she quickly arranged everyone.... They moved into the thick mist in a formation like a six-pointed star, Cadsuane herself in the lead, an Aes Sedai at each of two other points, a man with a sword at three. Toram, of course, protested loudly at bringing up the rear until Cadsuane mentioned the honor of the rear guard or some such. That quieted him down.

So, are you arguing that Rand was unable to do something or wouldn't have. It says nothing there to suggest that. In fact, what it says it what I originally said here: Rand took her advice without question. If you go up, that's exactly what I said. And, that's to prove the point that he isn't so headstrong that he won't follow good advice. Which goes to what I said up top - her storming in and acting the way she did accomplished nothing. Obviously, Rand can be lead when he sees that it is right or can be beneficial.

 

Cadsuane comes in and thinks she needs to teach the boy something when she doesn't even know him. Mange (I originally wrote superfade here but meant mange. although, I agree with superfade's point as well) makes an excellent point.

 

On this thread, I asked the question if she could have come off differently on their first encounter. I think she could have. I think the way she acted benefited no one! I don't find her actions to be wise.

 

Edit to add- you're correct, the other AS didn't take action but it says nothing of Rand not taking action.

[Suttree]

So, are you arguing that Rand was unable to do something or wouldn't have.

 

What you said was...

 

What he shows me about her doesn't seem to be much different than any other AS who is, at least, trying to do the right thing. She throws fireballs in the fog at the monsters. Cool. So, do the rest. There's nothing there showing us what a great leader she is or how she's any more powerful. Nothing. It's like if he said Mat has a head for war but never showed the reader anything more to prove the truth of that statement than he did with Rand or Perrin.

 

This is quite clearly not true. There are multiple paragraphs dedicated to showing her leadership skills here(and more once they escape). She was the one who took the lead and pulled together disparate personalities and quickly shaped them into a cohesive group. No idea why you keep presenting hypotheticals on what could have happened while we are dscussing what did happen. Again she was the one who took control and lead the group(not an easy job considering the different members), we see her manage each one and get them to follow without question. That is the sign of a great leader and directly contradicts your statement above.

[thisguy]

What I am saying is that RJ 'tells' us how amazing she is and how she's held in awe by the AS. BUT, I am not amazed by her actions. What he shows me about her doesn't seem to be much different than any other AS who is, at least, trying to do the right thing. She throws fireballs in the fog at the monsters. Cool. So, do the rest. There's nothing there showing us what a great leader she is or how she's any more powerful. Nothing. It's like if he said Mat has a head for war but never showed the reader anything more to prove the truth of that statement than he did with Rand or Perrin.

 

Which totally ignores the points I made about the cleansing and Far Madding...as for the fog she is the one that takes control and organizes the group to get them out. She saves Rand's life(as he aknowledges). Are you arguing any other AS could have taken control but didnt'?

Sure am. I'm arguing Rand could have gotten out of there on his own. He's gotten out of stickier situations. In fact, if she didn't smack him and take his attention away from the trouble around him, it's entirely possible that Fain wouldn't have been able to stab him.

 

What was your point about the cleansing again, if you don't mind? And, did she know about his mood being tied to the land - his mental health? Also, if you wouldn't mind, can you tell me why people can dislike other characters but not her?

 

Facts are facts. She was the only one to take action and save them. Rand quite obviously doesn't blame her for Fain(in fact the opposite he credits her with saving him) so not sure why yould attempt to question the facts in the story.

 

As for the cleansing she planned and orchestrated the entire defense which routed all of the forsaken. It's perhaps the most impressive channeling battle plan we have seen. Something that Rand didn't even give a moments thought to and wouldn't have been able to finish the cleansing with out. Same goes for Far Madding, he was back in a box with his sanity on the brink and about to be in Elaida's hands. Once again it is yet another scene in which we are "shown" how impressive she is which runs totally counter to your baseless claim that we are only "told"

 

As for his mood I'm not sure if we are ever told either way. She knows the prophecies well enough so it's possible. Don't think if we ever have gotten confirmation though.

 

Not sure what you mean by the last sentence? When have any of us argued that people aren't allowed to dislike her? As Mr Ares has said if your reasoning for that dislike is not sound prepare to have holes poked in it. It is something commonly done regardless of topic by the old guard on these boards.

Because, one bad word said about Cads gets some funny responses. And, the reasoning has not had huge holes poked in it. She knew nothing about Rand except that he is the DR. She comes in like she owns the place and pushes him, not knowing his history with AS and not even knowing what he's discussing with the other people in the room. I'm sure we'd all be a little rude with her. Her coming in there the way she did accomplishes nothing of any worth. It certainly doesn't cast her as a wise character.

[thisguy]

So, are you arguing that Rand was unable to do something or wouldn't have.

 

What you said was...

 

What he shows me about her doesn't seem to be much different than any other AS who is, at least, trying to do the right thing. She throws fireballs in the fog at the monsters. Cool. So, do the rest. There's nothing there showing us what a great leader she is or how she's any more powerful. Nothing. It's like if he said Mat has a head for war but never showed the reader anything more to prove the truth of that statement than he did with Rand or Perrin.

 

This is quite clearly not true. There are multiple paragraphs dedicated to showing her leadership skills here(and mnore once they escape). She was the one who took the lead and pulled together disparate personalities and quickly shaped them into a cohesive group. No idea why you keep presenting hypotheticals on what could have happened while we are dscussing what did happen. Again she was the one who took control and lead the group(not an easy job considering the different members), we see her manage each one and get them to follow without question. That is the sign of a great leader and directly contradicts your statement above.

Yes, the fireball part is correct. And, she takes control of the AS who she usually controls. It's not impressive. Again, if you look at my original point about that whole scene it was to, in fact, point out that Rand took orders from her. No place in the scene does it say Rand was flustered or didn't know what to do. You're correct, the AS were flustered. Doesn't Toram take off after they begin?

 

Edit: Just wiki-ed he runs away through the fog after discovering Rand's the DR.

[Suttree]

Yes, the fireball part is correct. And, she takes control of the AS who she usually controls. It's not impressive. Again, if you look at my original point about that whole scene it was to, in fact, point out that Rand took orders from her. No place in the scene does it say Rand was flustered or didn't know what to do. You're correct, the AS were flustered. Doesn't Toram take off after they begin?

 

Mate stop ignoring the point. You claimed she did nothing different than anyone else and there is nothing to show she is a great leader. Meanwhile the text is clear that she got the AS, Toram, Darlin and Rand all to snap to and organize. Her leadership skills are on display and she even gets Rand to follow "meekly". Stop tossing about what ifs and read what actually happened. The text quite clearly shows her managing all their personalities. This is precisely what the other posters meant when they talked of your character bias getting in the way.

 

I mean you are all well "what if" Rand being slapped caused him to get stabbed(despite Rand saying she saved his life), what if Rand took control...he wasn't flustered!(well he didn't). She only controlled the AS(No actually it shows her managing Darlin and Toram's personalities as well).

 

Once again since you seemed to have missed it the first time...

 

ACoS

The gray-haired Green had taken charge, clearly, and she kept it despite attempted protests from Darlin, who like many Tairens seemed not to relish Aes Sedai a great deal, and Toram, who just seemed to dislike anyone giving orders but himself. For that matter, so did Caraline, but Cadsuane ignored her frowns as completely as she did the men’s voiced complaints. Unlike them, Caraline appeared to realize complaints would do no good. Wonder of wonders, Rand meekly let himself be placed to Cadsuane’s right as she quickly arranged everyone....

[thisguy]

No, I don't have to reread, mate. I said you're correct, the other AS did nothing. I don't agree that Rand couldn't do anything on his own. I believe I asked you if that's what you thought and you didn't answer.

[Suttree]

No, I don't have to reread, mate. I said you're correct, the other AS did nothing. I don't agree that Rand couldn't do anything on his own. I believe I asked you if that's what you thought and you didn't answer.

 

I did, I said it is beside the point, we aren't dealing in hypotheticals or splitting hairs on meaning. We are discussing the facts from the text. Those facts directly dispute your claim that...

 

thisguy, on 04 September 2012 - 10:00 AM, said:

 

There's nothing there showing us what a great leader she is or how she's any more powerful. Nothing

 

Bottom line you say this scene is not impressive and that she did nothing to show leadership skills. That is directly disputed by what happens in the text. If you can't admit that and continue to present what you think Rand "could have" done instead of what he did "follow meekly" there is little reason to continue.

[thisguy]

 

 

?

 

http://en.wikipedia....non_(literature)

 

I totally missed this. Yes, I know what canon means. Thanks.

[Suttree]

?

 

http://en.wikipedia....non_(literature)

 

I totally missed this. Yes, I know what canon means. Thanks.

 

The talk of religious text didn't make that clear as others could see if you included the whole quote. Guess I was just confused by the remark? What was your point then...

[thisguy]

No, I don't have to reread, mate. I said you're correct, the other AS did nothing. I don't agree that Rand couldn't do anything on his own. I believe I asked you if that's what you thought and you didn't answer.

 

I did, I said it is beside the point, we aren't dealing in hypotheticals or splitting hairs on meaning. We are discussing the facts from the text. Those facts directly dispute your claim that...

 

thisguy, on 04 September 2012 - 10:00 AM, said:

 

There's nothing there showing us what a great leader she is or how she's any more powerful. Nothing

 

Bottom line you say this scene is not impressive and that she did nothing to show leadership skills. That is directly disputed by what happens in the text. If you can't admit that and continue to present what you think Rand "could have" done isnstead of what he did "follow meekly" there is little reason to continue.

 

Wow. Maybe you need to reread, mate. As I said the first time and many more times thereafter, I originally brought up that scene saying that Rand did, indeed, follow her orders.

 

And, considering that you misquoted me up above in regards to the 30-50 pages, I'm not sure what your point is.

 

If we're going to go strictly by the book and not have any thoughts about it, we've already seen that Cadsuane helps him by accident. She wants the right thing but only pulls it off accidentally. Cool. Now, that we've got that under control, why can't we discuss how she could have possibly done it better. You think that shows off her excellent leadership abilities? Fine.

[thisguy]

?

 

http://en.wikipedia....non_(literature)

 

I totally missed this. Yes, I know what canon means. Thanks.

 

The talk of religious text didn't make that clear as others could see if you included the whole quote. Guess I was just confused by the remark? What was your point then...

Cads, before you even meet her, is written as larger than life. Amazing. Etc. I don't think she is from what I read.

 

YES! She does do some amazing things. So, do most of the main characters, though. I don't see what makes her so great. You say Rand would have died without her. Yes. I agree. Rand would have died without Perrin, too. The way she's acts doesn't live up to the way shes is originally presented for me. And, I found the mention of going against canon funny because that means that we can't dislike a presentation of a character in the book.

 

The books constantly talk about the Forsaken as super evil beings who are to be feared and have so much knowledge, etc. Yet, most of them come off as incompetent in the big picture. Moridin doesn't. Demandred does a good job. The rest aren't all that impressive in what they pull off.

[Suttree]

No, I don't have to reread, mate. I said you're correct, the other AS did nothing. I don't agree that Rand couldn't do anything on his own. I believe I asked you if that's what you thought and you didn't answer.

 

I did, I said it is beside the point, we aren't dealing in hypotheticals or splitting hairs on meaning. We are discussing the facts from the text. Those facts directly dispute your claim that...

 

thisguy, on 04 September 2012 - 10:00 AM, said:

 

There's nothing there showing us what a great leader she is or how she's any more powerful. Nothing

 

Bottom line you say this scene is not impressive and that she did nothing to show leadership skills. That is directly disputed by what happens in the text. If you can't admit that and continue to present what you think Rand "could have" done isnstead of what he did "follow meekly" there is little reason to continue.

 

Wow. Maybe you need to reread, mate. As I said the first time and many more times thereafter, I originally brought up that scene saying that Rand did, indeed, follow her orders.

 

Ok no worries, I hope you can see how it would be confusing for us that you start by saying Rand followed her orders and follow by saying the scene shows "nothing" of her leadership abilities and that she does nothing different than anyone else(despite the text touching on each person in the group and showing us how she leads them). In addition you seemed to state that she only lead the AS. If that's not what you meant then my apologies.

[Treemaster]

As usual with these type of spats, it seems like a middle ground is in order.

 

A Crown of Swords was the last book I was able to read without waiting for the next book to be published. If my memory is accurate (questionable), I read it in 1998. I was in between my sophomore and junior years in college. My first reaction to her appearance was "come on" -- do we really need another character like this? I was reading the series for the first time, and for some reason thought that Moiraine had actually died at the end of Book 5. It seemed to me at the time that Cadsuane was coming in to be another Moiraine. I thought her character completely unnecessary and thought Robert Jordan had added her as an after-the-fact character. I had a very negative first impression of her, for largely the reasons stated by thisguy.

 

14 years later, I actually like Cadsuane. If we trust Jordan, and there is no reason not to, her character did not appear after the fact, and was planned from the beginning. And she does play a necessary role in the series, such as by organizing the defense at the cleansing.

 

Do I think Cadsuane is generally a bully? Sure. Does bullying generally work better than attempting to carefully reason with people with logic? Sure. Do I think she approached Rand in the wrong way? Once again, yes, I do. One could ask: Do Cadsuane's ends justify her means? Do the ends in general justify the means? These are philosophical questions with no clear answers. Cadsuane a character in a story and has plenty of strengths and weaknesses, and I don’t think it is necessary to probe further.

 

Those praising Cadsuane go a little too far, I think. Did she really carefully think through the entire situation before she first saw Rand? I doubt it. I don’t think she approaches Rand correctly; but then, it would have been hard to know how to approach him the right way. A possible answer – communication (sitting down with Rand and actually expressing her concerns) – is not generally followed either in the story or in real life.

 

As for the actual question of whether Cadsuane acted out of character in The Gathering Storm scene with Tam? Possibly, but I could go either way with it. That scene didn't shout out to me as one that Brandon particularly bungled. It didn't read to me that Sanderson was belittling Cadsuane simply to make Tam awesome -- and, if he was, that's been a problem with the entire series, and not just that scene. Cadsuane in general seemed fine to me in The Gathering Storm.

 

With regards to Egwene, her entire arc in the series starting around Book 6 is implausible. I don't think there was much difference between her behavior in Salidar and her behavior in Tar Valon. The Aes Sedai in general were far too dumbed down, in my opinion, by Book 6. The Aes Sedai began to recover around the time of the Black Ajah hunters, but they were still implausibly silly by the time Egwene came into picture. In addition, we know that Jordan is responsible for more of Egwene in The Gathering Storm and Towers of Midnight than he was for Rand in the same two books. If there is a problem with Egwene (and I believe there is) I blame Jordan, not Brandon.

I do think we all have to accept that Brandon is not and never will be Jordan, and that while he is doing the best he can-- and in some ways, he is better than Jordan (he is generally better with female characters, in my opinion) -- the books will never be the same, and will never be as good, as if Jordan had written them. There are bound to be many moments like this one where a character seems off, and that the difference is probably attributable to Brandon, but 100% certainty is impossible without access to Jordan's notes.

 

My own biggest complaint with Brandon is not his characterizations but his prose. The prose needed a lot more polishing in the last two books. Some of that is likely because they were rushed, and some of it may be that Brandon simply isn't as good at prose as Jordan.

 

Those are my meandering thoughts on the topics in this thread.

[thisguy]

No, I don't have to reread, mate. I said you're correct, the other AS did nothing. I don't agree that Rand couldn't do anything on his own. I believe I asked you if that's what you thought and you didn't answer.

 

I did, I said it is beside the point, we aren't dealing in hypotheticals or splitting hairs on meaning. We are discussing the facts from the text. Those facts directly dispute your claim that...

 

thisguy, on 04 September 2012 - 10:00 AM, said:

 

There's nothing there showing us what a great leader she is or how she's any more powerful. Nothing

 

Bottom line you say this scene is not impressive and that she did nothing to show leadership skills. That is directly disputed by what happens in the text. If you can't admit that and continue to present what you think Rand "could have" done isnstead of what he did "follow meekly" there is little reason to continue.

 

Wow. Maybe you need to reread, mate. As I said the first time and many more times thereafter, I originally brought up that scene saying that Rand did, indeed, follow her orders.

 

Ok no worries, I hope you can see how it would be confusing for us that you start by saying Rand followed her orders and follow by saying the scene shows "nothing" of her leadership abilities and that she does nothing different than anyone else(despite the text touching on each person in the group and showing us how she leads them). In addition you seemed to state that she only lead the AS. If that's not what you meant then my apologies.

Sure. I can admit to being incorrect.

As for that, you're right, the AS are shown to be scared. But, did the writing show anything amazing on Cads part? You think so, so I'll leave it at that.

No, I said several times that Rand follows her lead right off the bat. I believe I originally actually pointed that out because someone said something about him being stubborn or something like that.

 

If you think I'm picking on Cads, I'm sorry. Her character (that I've read so far on my reread) is not the only character or scene or plot line that comes up lacking for me on my reread. Example - Min's viewing that Rand will die if Perrin isn't there for him twice. I'm pretty sure Dumai's Wells was one of those times. But, the wolves coming down ends up being kind of lackluster. They're mentioned twice in the actual battle (actually, three times but one of those times is really lame). They hit the Shaido from the side and once from Sevanna's point of view and she stabs one that takes down a wise one. Perrin does gather the group who goes after Rand. But, Rhuarc makes out most of the battle plan and the description of Perrin's fights is him stoically hacking into shaido.

 

I suppose you could argue that he was able to get all the groups together but there's nothing really mentioned - that I remember - making it so necessary for him to be there.

 

As for Cads - whether you want to argue that that scene shows her as a great leader or not - SHOOT! I'll even say she was a fantastic just to get to another point:

 

1. she comes into Rand's rooms with no intel and acts an ass to see how he'll react. she finds out nothing mind blowing from doing that. She could have found out that he had good metal in him and had anger issues if she hung out for a couple of days, tops.

2. after the fog scene, she wants to go to Damored's apartments (or somebody's - I could be wrong about Damodred). Min says it's a bad idea and explains why. Cads agrees. To me that is a good example of showing that Cads can be made to see reason if a good reason is given. However, as soon as I read that I thought - "see, you don't know everything. Maybe you shouldn't have gone bumbling into his apartment' - as she got no useful info out of that and just put his back up. The way I see Rand at that point is that he wishes he had people he could trust without any issues. That's part of the reason he not only romantically loves Min but loves having her around.

3. When Flinn comes over to heal a possibly dying Rand she says something about "another boy with no manners.." and gets huffy. Luckily, Flinn pretty much ignores her. Honestly, if RJ hadn't written about how she's super AS before these scenes (the first time she's mentioned is in an earlier book), I wouldn't be super impressed. I probably also wouldn't be so vocal about how I'm not impressed. I would have taken her to be pretty much like most of the other characters - doing the best she can.

 

There are a lot of things on the reread I find very odd - Nynaeve pulling lan's head back after he fishes her out of the water during their reunion scene. She pulls his head back with the power to a point where it hurts and holds him there.... f-ing weird to me. Now, imagine if he did that to her? Right away we'd all think what a so and so. I like Nynaeve but I found that too far.

 

Edit to add: Perring at Dumai's Wells - the way the scene is written it seems like the Ashaman had more to do with Rand not dying than Perrin. Which is part of my problem with the viewing and the scene.

[MasterAblar]

3. When Flinn comes over to heal a possibly dying Rand she says something about "another boy with no manners.." and gets huffy. Luckily, Flinn pretty much ignores her. Honestly, if RJ hadn't written about how she's super AS before these scenes (the first time she's mentioned is in an earlier book), I wouldn't be super impressed. I probably also wouldn't be so vocal about how I'm not impressed. I would have taken her to be pretty much like most of the other characters - doing the best she can.

 

I believe she was referring to Narishma actually. I really liked that scene, what with the tension between the Aes Sedai, the Ashaman, the Wise One Amys, not to mention a Forsaken, and of course the slight issue of Rand dying.

[thisguy]

3. When Flinn comes over to heal a possibly dying Rand she says something about "another boy with no manners.." and gets huffy. Luckily, Flinn pretty much ignores her. Honestly, if RJ hadn't written about how she's super AS before these scenes (the first time she's mentioned is in an earlier book), I wouldn't be super impressed. I probably also wouldn't be so vocal about how I'm not impressed. I would have taken her to be pretty much like most of the other characters - doing the best she can.

 

I believe she was referring to Narishma actually. I really liked that scene, what with the tension between the Aes Sedai, the Ashaman, the Wise One Amys, not to mention a Forsaken, and of course the slight issue of Rand dying.

Was it? Maybe, you're right - I don't have the book in front of me. I thought it was when Flinn moved to touch Rand or come by him. Yes, I agree, the scene is actually one of my favorites. In my mind, it didn't cast Cad in too great of a light, which is why I brought it up here. It makes her appear to be like many of the other obsessive compulsive control freaks in the book.

 

But, yeah, great scene. I love how Flinn talks through his healing and how he's portrayed as very country.

[MasterAblar]

3. When Flinn comes over to heal a possibly dying Rand she says something about "another boy with no manners.." and gets huffy. Luckily, Flinn pretty much ignores her. Honestly, if RJ hadn't written about how she's super AS before these scenes (the first time she's mentioned is in an earlier book), I wouldn't be super impressed. I probably also wouldn't be so vocal about how I'm not impressed. I would have taken her to be pretty much like most of the other characters - doing the best she can.

 

I believe she was referring to Narishma actually. I really liked that scene, what with the tension between the Aes Sedai, the Ashaman, the Wise One Amys, not to mention a Forsaken, and of course the slight issue of Rand dying.

Was it? Maybe, you're right - I don't have the book in front of me. I thought it was when Flinn moved to touch Rand or come by him. Yes, I agree, the scene is actually one of my favorites. In my mind, it didn't cast Cad in too great of a light, which is why I brought it up here. It makes her appear to be like many of the other obsessive compulsive control freaks in the book.

 

But, yeah, great scene. I love how Flinn talks through his healing and how he's portrayed as very country.

 

Flinn is pretty cool yeah. What happened was: the Ashaman come in, Dashiva tells Flinn to tend to Rand, Samitsu tries to interfere, Narishma stops her, Cadsuane makes a comment that he is rude, Narishma is a little embarassed but stands his ground, Flinn heals Rand, and then hilariously Samitsu promises him everything if he'll teach her what he just did.

[thisguy]

3. When Flinn comes over to heal a possibly dying Rand she says something about "another boy with no manners.." and gets huffy. Luckily, Flinn pretty much ignores her. Honestly, if RJ hadn't written about how she's super AS before these scenes (the first time she's mentioned is in an earlier book), I wouldn't be super impressed. I probably also wouldn't be so vocal about how I'm not impressed. I would have taken her to be pretty much like most of the other characters - doing the best she can.

 

I believe she was referring to Narishma actually. I really liked that scene, what with the tension between the Aes Sedai, the Ashaman, the Wise One Amys, not to mention a Forsaken, and of course the slight issue of Rand dying.

Was it? Maybe, you're right - I don't have the book in front of me. I thought it was when Flinn moved to touch Rand or come by him. Yes, I agree, the scene is actually one of my favorites. In my mind, it didn't cast Cad in too great of a light, which is why I brought it up here. It makes her appear to be like many of the other obsessive compulsive control freaks in the book.

 

But, yeah, great scene. I love how Flinn talks through his healing and how he's portrayed as very country.

 

Flinn is pretty cool yeah. What happened was: the Ashaman come in, Dashiva tell Flinn to tend to Rand, Samitsu tries to interfere, Narishma stops her, Cadsuane makes a comment that he is rude, Narishma is a little embarassed but stands his ground, Flinn heals Rand, and then hilariously Samitsu promises him everything if he'll teach her what he just did.

Fair enough. It just seemed unnecessary. There's a time for manners and a time for getting things done. And, considering her first scene of barging into someone's apartments that she has never met, she's the last one who should be talking about manners.

[Suttree]

And, considering her first scene of barging into someone's apartments that she has never met, she's the last one who should be talking about manners.

 

Barging in? She was announced at the door, it was the reactions of all the AS present that throw the room into a frenzy. She then calls out Berelein and Rand on their play acting and keeps him intrigued precisely because of how different she is acting(which the Aiel approve in hand language btw). She keeps him off balance and as we know if she had approached him as the other AS did he would have immediately distrusted her(as he did with the others well before anyone knew of the kidnapping plot). Fionwe gives a solid accounting of it here: http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/73690-amol-worries/page__st__40?do=findComment&comment=2517597

[thisguy]

And, considering her first scene of barging into someone's apartments that she has never met, she's the last one who should be talking about manners.

 

Barging in? She was announced at the door, it was the reactions of all the AS present that throw the room into a frenzy. She then calls out Berelein and Rand on their play acting and keeps him intrigued precisely because of how different she is acting(which the Aiel approve in hand language btw). She keeps him off balance and as we know if she had approached him as the other AS did he would have immediately distrusted her(as he did with the others well before anyone knew of the kidnapping plot). Fionwe gives a solid accounting of it here: http://www.dragonmou...40#entry2517597

She was announced but Rand didn't ask her to come in. The maidens are basically a doorbell. Yeah, I get it. I don't find it wise.

[yoniy0]

My post has several parts. First, with my mod hat on, this thread isn't about Cadsuane. I asked everyone to take that debate to the dedicated thread several times now, and going forward I'll start deleting posts (or locking this thread if you leave me no other choice).

 

Second, mod hat off, thisguy, please stop double posting. If you remember something else you wish to say, and no one has posted, just add it as an edit to your post if that's not too hard.

 

Third, the reason Cadsuane was relevant to this discussion is because she's an example of Sanderson's infantilizing certain characters as a method of building others. It's visible there, as well as between Egwene and certain Sitters (in contradiction to what's been said above, RJ did more of Egwene in TGS, but ToM was again mainly BS), and in the other direction between Rand and Egwene. It's not a matter of whether Cadsuane's character is lovable (the different voices Brandon sometimes write is indeed an inherit part of his not being RJ), it's a matter of consistency and childish writing (it's the same with Mistlings and Mistborn in those books, BTW, when Vin is very impressed with their capabilities, but whenever Kelsier is involved he's suddenly the omnipotent joker-card).

[Mats Spare Hat]

Having hit the final third of a TOM reread...

 

If the word, or any derivation of the word, tempest is in the final volume, steam will roll out my ears.

 

FFS that dude needs to learn how to use a thesaurus, I swear.

[Kamin_Majere]

The tempest of Rands anger swept the fields of TG like a stormy tempest. He shouted at the armies of the dark one that were swarming over the armies of the light like a tempest "You shall all feel the Tempest of my wrath for this"... tempest