AMOL worries

[thisguy]

If we hadn't been told a million times that she's the greatest AS ever, and all of that, her bullying would look just like it was, bullying.

[yoniy0]

Honestly, this whole thing feels like a case of "you were mean to my hero, you witch!" What does she bully people into doing? She bullies Rand into considering other people for a change, and controlling himself. She bullies random AS into quitting their squabbling and cooperating on the march to TG. She bullies some nobles into cooperating with Rand. Now, I don't see a case for any of those being more susceptible to other, more cultured, means. Her only real fault in this regard is her bullying of Min, where a subtler approach might've worked (might, I say, because Min is fiercely loyal to Rand, and visibly so, so Cads would've had to convince her that doing what's best for Rand is more important than what Rand wishes, and any misstep might've ruined her whole plan).

 

Regardless, Rand is very much the bully himself, yet I rarely see anyone complaining about that (so, I can't help but thinking there's double standards involved).

[thisguy]

Honestly, this whole thing feels like a case of "you were mean to my hero, you witch!" What does she bully people into doing? She bullies Rand into considering other people for a change, and controlling himself. She bullies random AS into quitting their squabbling and cooperating on the march to TG. She bullies some nobles into cooperating with Rand. Now, I don't see a case for any of those being more susceptible to other, more cultured, means. Her only real fault in this regard is her bullying of Min, where a subtler approach might've worked (might, I say, because Min is fiercely loyal to Rand, and visibly so, so Cads would've had to convince her that doing what's best for Rand is more important than what Rand wishes, and any misstep might've ruined her whole plan).

 

Regardless, Rand is very much the bully himself, yet I rarely see anyone complaining about that (so, I can't help but thinking there's double standards involved).

Rand wasn't a bully to begin with and only became one when people basically tried to shove him in a box. That's not outside of the normal realm of reaction.

Cadsuane - from the moment she comes on stage is a bully. That's the problem. For all the talk of BS not writing characters correctly, I think RJ may have flubbed this one. She starts off like a bull in a china shop. There's no finesse except for what Cadsuane fans read into her actions. Her hearts in the right place but so are most of the main characters on the side of light. I actually would have had no problem or less of a problem with her if she either started of differently and then there was some change in her actions or if she weren't built up to be Super AS who is never wrong and rarely fails.

[yoniy0]

(a) There's a very big difference between the stage at which you meet Rand and Cadsuane. If Rand became a bully at 20, what's your gripe with Cads again? BTW Rand resorted to threats and intimidation with the Power long before anyone (but Moiraine) tried to control him; they were just resisting him back then.

(b) Cads only seems a bully when she steps into Rand's hall in the Sun palace if you disregard his current state of mind. He just had AS wash his feet and almost dry them with their hair. If's she's to get any reaction out of him, what would you have her do?

[thisguy]

(a) There's a very big difference between the stage at which you meet Rand and Cadsuane. If Rand became a bully at 20, what's your gripe with Cads again? BTW Rand resorted to threats and intimidation with the Power long before anyone (but Moiraine) tried to control him; they were just resisting him back then.

(b) Cads only seems a bully when she steps into Rand's hall in the Sun palace if you disregard his current state of mind. He just had AS wash his feet and almost dry them with their hair. If's she's to get any reaction out of him, what would you have her do?

Rand has done more at twenty than probably Cads has done in her entire life. Plus, he's the prime target of the DO forces and his own side doesn't treat him so well.

 

My biggest problem with her is that she knows how 'her kind' has treated the guy, with a couple of notable exceptions, and shouldn't come in there expecting him to give two craps about who she is.... the books could have just as easily had her walk in there and talk to him like a normal person and gotten the same results in the end.

[yoniy0]

Rand has done more at twenty than probably Cads has done in her entire life. Plus, he's the prime target of the DO forces and his own side doesn't treat him so well.

Ah, yes. See, I knew there was a reason why every last character in the books, excluding Rand, wasn't worth my sympathy; I was just looking for it all this time.

 

My biggest problem with her is that she knows how 'her kind' has treated the guy, with a couple of notable exceptions, and shouldn't come in there expecting him to give two craps about who she is.... the books could have just as easily had her walk in there and talk to him like a normal person and gotten the same results in the end.

Are we reading the same books? Do you really believe that approach would've worked with Rand, the way he was back then? Remember, Cadsuane was ready to wring Elaida's neck for making her mission that much more difficult (meaning, she would've loved to have been able to approach him differently), but that doesn't change the fact that she couldn't turn back time. It's interesting, in this context, to examine the way the WO's deal with Rand, and compare it to Cadsuane's approach. The similarities aren't coincidental.

[thisguy]

Rand has done more at twenty than probably Cads has done in her entire life. Plus, he's the prime target of the DO forces and his own side doesn't treat him so well.

Ah, yes. See, I knew there was a reason why every last character in the books, excluding Rand, wasn't worth my sympathy; I was just looking for it all this time.

 

My biggest problem with her is that she knows how 'her kind' has treated the guy, with a couple of notable exceptions, and shouldn't come in there expecting him to give two craps about who she is.... the books could have just as easily had her walk in there and talk to him like a normal person and gotten the same results in the end.

Are we reading the same books? Do you really believe that approach would've worked with Rand, the way he was back then? Remember, Cadsuane was ready to wring Elaida's neck for making her mission that much more difficult (meaning, she would've loved to have been able to approach him differently), but that doesn't change the fact that she couldn't turn back time. It's interesting, in this context, to examine the way the WO's deal with Rand, and compare it to Cadsuane's approach. The similarities aren't coincidental.

Lol... I never said that. I have sympathy for many of the characters, just not much for her.

 

We're reading the same books and if she were so wonderful she might have been able to come up with a better or different way. In point of fact, the only part of her plan that works to bring Rand back to his senses is bringing Tam to him. The rest is the struggle. Don't get me wrong, I like a good struggle, without them there is not book. But she rubs me the wrong way. I don't see what the big deal is about that.

[yoniy0]

Ha! The first line was meant to make it clear that your argument was a non-sequitur; no one has achieved what Rand has, but that doesn't mean they're not worthy of our respect.

Secondly, since I've already thrown logic terms around, the rest of your argument is what we might call post hoc ergo propter hoc, meaning that the mere fact that Cadsuane's plan failed doesn't imply it was faulty. In fact, it's almost paid off when Rand was opening up to Min just before Semirhage made him into 'cuendillar'. And that's what made her fail, really -- that the Shadow continued its efforts to break Rand's psyche. Now, of course she should've expected it, but that doesn't make it her fault.

 

Finally, to bring this back on point, there's no big deal about your dislike of Cadsuane. It's hardly out of the norm, besides. The point is that you're allowing that dislike to hide the fact that in TGS and ToM she's been acting in a way that's inconsistent with her character, chiefly when confronted with somebody else who's in need of having their savvy displayed (meaning, again, that it's not simply that Brandon views Cadsuane differently than some, but that her character changes to accommodate somebody else's character development).

[Mange]

To me all the complaints that she has been out of character stems from her not living up to the ideal she are supposed to be. I mean, how can this extraordinary Aes Sedai make mistakes and snap (seizing Tam with Saidar and snapping at him) when she is supposed to be so great and awesome? There must be an error in the books and hence the fault lies with the (new) author. That is how I read it but I haven't dissected the books as thoroughly as many here have. I would consider Brandon’s bias much more dangerous if he had tried to hide his opinion of Cadsuane. If he's open with his own dislike then he might be able to balance his writing better and those who proofread are also more aware of the potential problem.

 

Characters not living up to the legends are not something unusual in WoT. If the legends were all true I'm still waiting for the real forsakens to wake up so that these cardboard-replicas can sit this last battle out.

 

The accusation of being a rand-fanboi. Well, how do you defend yourself against that? Not completely untrue I suppose. Started to read the series when I was 9 years old (1993) so it isn't so strange that I have a soft spot for the main characters .

[Suttree]

Characters not living up to the legends are not something unusual in WoT. If the legends were all true I'm still waiting for the real forsakens to wake up so that these cardboard-replicas can sit this last battle out.

 

We know in relation to Cads the legends are for the most part true.

 

RJs notes:

There are the usual tales expected of a Green, only more of them. Riots suppressed and wars stopped single-handedly; rulers steadied on their thrones, or pulled from them, sometimes toppled openly and sometimes more subtly (toppling rulers was something Aes Sedai had not really done much of in the last thousand years, but Cadsuane seemed in many ways a throwback). Rescuing people carried into the Blight or kidnaped by dangerous bands of Darkfriends, breaking up murderous rings of Darkfriends plaguing villages and towns, and exposing powerful Darkfriends who tried to kill her to protect themselves. There are dozens, even hundreds, of improbable and sometimes seemingly impossible tales.....

When Siuan Sanche and Moiraine Damodred had reason to research Cadsuane because of their encounter with her shortly after reaching the shawl, they found many stories regarding Cadsuane. All of the ones that they were able to trace down turned out to be true, and in some cases the truth was more than the story.

 

Once again it's not that Cads snapped and made a mistake, we see her make other mistakes throughout the story. It's the fact that the whole scene takes all of one paragraph as if he is racing to check points of a list and further that she is dumbed down in order to make Tam look better(which back fires because how much credit do you get for calling a fool a fool). In one sentence she goes from "coldly"asking him a question to snapping and lashing out at a fairly innocuous response. Based on the entire rest of the story can you imagine how hard she would set down any AS that had to resort to threats with the power against a man who can't channel? The mere suggestion of a threat would be more than enough. Again its a caricature version of Cads with all the things the fans don't like about her tied into a neat little ball. He allowed the fan gratification to carry the scene instead of actual decent writing.

[thisguy]

Ha! The first line was meant to make it clear that your argument was a non-sequitur; no one has achieved what Rand has, but that doesn't mean they're not worthy of our respect.

Secondly, since I've already thrown logic terms around, the rest of your argument is what we might call post hoc ergo propter hoc, meaning that the mere fact that Cadsuane's plan failed doesn't imply it was faulty. In fact, it's almost paid off when Rand was opening up to Min just before Semirhage made him into 'cuendillar'. And that's what made her fail, really -- that the Shadow continued its efforts to break Rand's psyche. Now, of course she should've expected it, but that doesn't make it her fault.

 

Finally, to bring this back on point, there's no big deal about your dislike of Cadsuane. It's hardly out of the norm, besides. The point is that you're allowing that dislike to hide the fact that in TGS and ToM she's been acting in a way that's inconsistent with her character, chiefly when confronted with somebody else who's in need of having their savvy displayed (meaning, again, that it's not simply that Brandon views Cadsuane differently than some, but that her character changes to accommodate somebody else's character development).

I only said that because You said that Rand has become a bully at 20 - there's a good reason for that. And, seeing that WoT world is full of bullies, I don't even think he's one of the worst.

 

As I've said before, I really need to get through this reread to get a better take on how, and if, BS wrote Cads character incorrectly.

 

As for your secondly (Sorry, I took these out of order), her plan actually worked because of Tam. I said something like that up top. I wouldn't have a problem with her failing either if she tried. I don't agree with her methods. I don't see how someone who is supposed to be so wise would go to one of the most dangerous people in the world who has been misused and abused by many of her own order and decide to come at him the same way as they did. I don't see the wisdom in that.

[Suttree]

I don't agree with her methods. I don't see how someone who is supposed to be so wise would go to one of the most dangerous people in the world who has been misused and abused by many of her own order and decide to come at him the same way as they did. I don't see the wisdom in that.

 

Because she came about her strategy only after very careful study. We know as far back as ACoS that she realized what she was dealing with...

 

ACoS

"If you want to see what a man is made of, push him from a direction he doesn't expect. There's good metal in that boy, I think, but he's going to be difficult." Steepling her fingers, she peered across them at the wall, musing to herself. "He has a rage in him fit to burn the world, and he holds it by a hair. Push him too far off balance .... Phaw!”

 

and we also see her realizing the gentler method a la Moiraine will not work...

 

WH

“But I must wait for him to come to me. You see the way he runs roughshod over Alanna and the others. It will be hard enough teaching him, if he does ask. He fights guidance, he thinks he must do everything, learn everything, on his own, and if I do not make him work for it, he won't learn at all."

 

We see her come to this conclusions after a very deliberate testing of his character. None of it was haphazard and none of it was simply bullying.

[thisguy]

I don't agree with her methods. I don't see how someone who is supposed to be so wise would go to one of the most dangerous people in the world who has been misused and abused by many of her own order and decide to come at him the same way as they did. I don't see the wisdom in that.

 

Because she came about her strategy only after very careful study. We know as far back as ACoS that she realized what she was dealing with...

 

ACoS

"If you want to see what a man is made of, push him from a direction he doesn't expect. There's good metal in that boy, I think, but he's going to be difficult." Steepling her fingers, she peered across them at the wall, musing to herself. "He has a rage in him fit to burn the world, and he holds it by a hair. Push him too far off balance .... Phaw!”

 

and we also see her realizing the gentler method a la Moiraine will not work...

 

WH

“But I must wait for him to come to me. You see the way he runs roughshod over Alanna and the others. It will be hard enough teaching him, if he does ask. He fights guidance, he thinks he must do everything, learn everything, on his own, and if I do not make him work for it, he won't learn at all."

 

We see her come to this conclusions after a very deliberate testing of his character. None of it was haphazard and none of it was simply bullying.

 

But, she pushed him from a direction that he did expect. She tried prodding him like every other AS he's come in contract with. Pushing him from another direction would have been saying to him off the bat "My order screwed up. I apologize. I'm here to help you. Maybe not in the ways you always want me to or expect me to, but I will do my best to make sure you face Tarmon Gai'don whole and healthy and in the right frame of mind." Or, something along those lines.

[Sid]

Had she done that, she'd never have accomplished what she did. He would have chewed her up and spit her out, acting as a supplicant like that, probably giving her a choice to say that oath all the other AS did or get out of his sight. And then who would have been around to save his life? She's the reason he's not dead, imprisoned and/or completely insane. Period. Her character limps visibly in books 12 and 13 because of writing shortcuts and new author bias.

[thisguy]

What he would have done is pure conjecture. And, if she came at him from a more honest position, which would in fact be from a place he wouldn't expect, she could have changed how to deal with him from there. It's all about how RJ decided to write her and how he decided to write what comes from her efforts. None of this is written in stone. Rand may have been so surprised he may have actually listened to what she had to say while distrusting her at the same time.

 

But, my point is, I've seen people write about showing not telling when writing. That's the way it's supposed to be, I agree. We have Super AS come out of the blue and say the you should come from a place where he least expects and she comes from a place that he's gotten used to expecting. I don't see the wisdom in the action.

[Suttree]

We have Super AS come out of the blue and say the you should come from a place where he least expects and she comes from a place that he's gotten used to expecting. I don't see the wisdom in the action.

 

But it's not what he was expecting. That is made perfectly clear after their first few interactions. She is very up front about how much harder the AS have made her job and it is also clear how much her methods throw Rand off as he was not expecting them. Take for example when he comes strutting in with his show of force acting like a child with the other Asha'man using the power in an attenpt to shock and awe and she laughs and treats him exactly as his actions deserve. It is made very clear in the text that a more passive approach would not have worked. Rand had ceased listening to any common sense at this point as evidenced(to use one example of many) by him ignoring Bashere's advice and slaughtering his own men. Cads undertakes a very specific testing of his nature and then works off those conclusions. People often totally forget that initially she was the only single person who made clear that Rand could not continue down that path. As Nyn and min agree later she was absolutely "right". Bottom line when someone does something worthy of respect she gives it to them and conversely when someone acts foolish she is quick to set them in their place.

[Mange]

Ah, sorry, I wasn't clear. I don't dispute that Cadsuane actually has done all the things she is credited to have achieved. I just wanted to point out that behind every legend there is an actual human being that will be snarky, testy and frustrated when s/he hasn't got enough sleep, food or tasty tea (regardless of prior legendary actions).

 

I can see where Cadsuanes reaction toward Tam comes from and I can understand it. To me it isn’t that farfetched. I won’t go further into it in this particular thread but I felt the need to clarify my point of view when my opinion was countered as only fanboyism.

[yoniy0]

Let's focus on Cadsuane only insofar as she's a good example to the practice of developing some characters by knocking down everyone around them, rather than for her own sake. For that, we have another thread on the boards.

[thisguy]

We have Super AS come out of the blue and say the you should come from a place where he least expects and she comes from a place that he's gotten used to expecting. I don't see the wisdom in the action.

 

But it's not what he was expecting. That is made perfectly clear after their first few interactions. She is very up front about how much harder the AS have made her job and it is also clear how much her methods throw Rand off as he was not expecting them. Take for example when he comes strutting in with his show of force acting like a child with the other Asha'man using the power in an attenpt to shock and awe and she laughs and treats him exactly as his actions deserve. It is made very clear in the text that a more passive approach would not have worked. Rand had ceased listening to any common sense at this point as evidenced(to use one example of many) by him ignoring Bashere's advice and slaughtering his own men. Cads undertakes a very specific testing of his nature and then works off those conclusions. People often totally forget that initially she was the only single person who made clear that Rand could not continue down that path. As Nyn and min agree later she was absolutely "right". Bottom line when someone does something worthy of respect she gives it to them and conversely when someone acts foolish she is quick to set them in their place.

I appreciate your input. I should probably stop commenting on Cads until my reread is down. I'm guessing another 6 weeks should do it - maybe 7.

[thisguy]

We have Super AS come out of the blue and say the you should come from a place where he least expects and she comes from a place that he's gotten used to expecting. I don't see the wisdom in the action.

 

But it's not what he was expecting. That is made perfectly clear after their first few interactions. She is very up front about how much harder the AS have made her job and it is also clear how much her methods throw Rand off as he was not expecting them. Take for example when he comes strutting in with his show of force acting like a child with the other Asha'man using the power in an attenpt to shock and awe and she laughs and treats him exactly as his actions deserve. It is made very clear in the text that a more passive approach would not have worked. Rand had ceased listening to any common sense at this point as evidenced(to use one example of many) by him ignoring Bashere's advice and slaughtering his own men. Cads undertakes a very specific testing of his nature and then works off those conclusions. People often totally forget that initially she was the only single person who made clear that Rand could not continue down that path. As Nyn and min agree later she was absolutely "right". Bottom line when someone does something worthy of respect she gives it to them and conversely when someone acts foolish she is quick to set them in their place.

Out of curiosity, do you know what book Rand comes strutting in with his Ashaman like you describe above? I'm reading the Blades chapter with the fog. No doubt she's heroic there, but so is he and pretty much everyone left in their little party. I don't see how she did anything more spectacular than everyone else yet. I still have a few more pages to go.

[Suttree]

Out of curiosity, do you know what book Rand comes strutting in with his Ashaman like you describe above? I'm reading the Blades chapter with the fog. No doubt she's heroic there, but so is he and pretty much everyone left in their little party. I don't see how she did anything more spectacular than everyone else yet. I still have a few more pages to go.

 

Here you go mate, don't think you are quite there on the reread yet. It's TPoD Ch. 27

 

"Do what I told you," Rand said.

Dashiva gave a jerk as if coming back to himself, then seized the Source. The wide door, carved in vertical lines, swung open with a bang on a flow of Air. The other three took hold of saidinand followed Dashiva in, faces grim.

"The Dragon Reborn," Dashiva’s voice sounded loud, magnified slightly by the Power, "the King of Illian, the Lord of the Morning, comes to see the woman, Cadsuane Melaidhrin."

Rand stepped in, standing tall. He did not recognize the other weave Dashiva had created, but the air seemed to hum with menace, a sense of something inexorable approaching, drawing ever nearer.

"I sent for you, Cadsuane," Rand said. He did not use weaves. His voice was hard and flat enough without aid.

The Green sister he remembered sat beside a small table with an embroidery hoop in her hands, an opened basket on the polished tabletop spilling out skeins of bright thread from some of its many compartments. She was exactly as he remembered. That strong face topped by an iron-gray bun decorated with small dangling golden fish and birds, stars and moons. Those dark eyes, seeming almost black in her fair face. Cool, considering eyes. Lews Therin gave a wail and fled at the sight of her.

"Well," she said, setting the embroidery hoop on the table, "I must say I’ve seen better without paying. With all I’ve been hearing about you, boy, the least I expected was peals of thunder, trumpets in the heavens, flashing lights in the sky." Calmly, she regarded the five stone-faced men who could channel, which should have been enough to make any Aes Sedai flinch. Calmly, she regarded the Dragon Reborn. "I hope one of you is at least going to juggle," she said. "Or eat fire? I’ve always enjoyed watching gleemen eat fire."

Flinn barked a laugh before catching himself, and even then raked a hand through his fringe of hair and seemed to be struggling with amusement. Morr and Hopwil exchanged looks both puzzled and more than a little outraged. Dashiva smiled unpleasantly, and the weave he was holding grew stronger, until Rand felt as if he wanted to look over his shoulder to see what was rushing toward him.

"It is enough that you know I am who I am," Rand told her. "Dashiva, all of you, wait outside."

Dashiva opened his mouth as if to protest. That had not been part of Rand’s instructions, but they were not going to overawe the woman, not this way. The man went, though, muttering to himself. Hopwil and Morr actually stepped out eagerly, with sidelong glances at Cadsuane. Flinn was the only one to make a dignified withdrawal, in spite of his limp. And he still seemed amused!

Rand channeled, and a heavy, leopard-carved chair floated into the air from its place by the wall, spinning end over end in somersaults before settling like a feather in front of Cadsuane. At the same time, a heavy silver pitcher drifted up from a long, draped table across the room, making a loud ping as it was suddenly heated; steam gushed from the top, and it tipped over, whirling round and round like a slow top, as a silver cup darted up to neatly catch the dark pouring.

"Too hot, I think," Rand said, and the glassed casements leaped from the tall, narrow windows. Snowflakes billowed in on an icy blast, and the cup soared out through one of the windows, soared back again, straight to his hand as he sat himself. Let her see how calm she could stay with a madman staring at her. The dark liquid was tea, too strong after his boiling, and bitter enough to set his teeth on edge. But the warmth was just right. His skin pebbled in the gusts howling into the room and flapping tapestries against the walls, but in the Void, that was far away, someone else’s skin.

"The Laurel Crown is prettier than some," Cadsuane said with a faint smile. Her hair ornaments swayed whenever the wind rose, and small wisps flailed about her bun, but the only notice she took was to catch her embroidery hoop just before it was blown from the table. "I prefer that name. But you can’t expect me to be impressed by crowns. I’ve paddled the bottoms of two reigning kings and three queens. Not sitting rulers, you understand, once I was done with them, not for a day or so, but it did get their attention. You can see why crowns don’t impress me, though."

Rand eased his jaw. Grinding his teeth would not help. He widened his eyes, hoping he looked insane instead of simply furious. "Most Aes Sedai avoid the Sun Palace," he told her. "Except for those who have sworn fealty to me. And those I hold prisoner." Light, what was he to do with those? As long as the Wise Ones kept them out of his hair, all was well enough.

"The Aiel seem to think I should come and go as I please," she said absently, eyeing the hoop in her hand as if thinking of taking up her needle again. "A matter of some trifling help I gave some boy or other. Though why anyone but his mother should think him worth it, I can hardly say."

Rand made another effort not to grind his teeth. The woman had saved his life. Her and Damer Flinn between them, and plenty of others in the bargain, Min among them. But he still owed Cadsuane something for that. Burn her. "I want you to be my advisor. I’m King of Illian now, and kings have Aes Sedai advisors."

 

Later we see the vows she makes to him...

 

TPoD Ch. 27

"I suppose that might work," she said doubtfully, peering at her cursed stitchery. Her eyes rose to his. Considering. "You sound... uneasy. I don’t like to tell a man he’s afraid even when he has reason to be. Uneasy over a sister you haven’t turned into a tame lapdog snaring you in some fashion? Let me see. I can make you a few promises; perhaps they will set your mind at rest. I expect you to listen, of course – make me waste my breath, and you’ll yelp for it – but I won’t make you do what I want. I won’t tolerate anyone lying to me, certainly – that’s another thing you’ll find decidedly uncomfortable – but I don’t expect you to tell me the deepest yearnings of your heart, either. Oh, yes. Whatever I do, it will be for your own good; not mine, not the good of the White Tower, yours. Now, does that ease your fears? Pardon me. Your unease."

 

She has been making him work for it, per a quote I provided in earlier posts so he asks her to be his advisor. Her methods have been working perfectly. Lastly in regards to the fog Rand himself says she saved his life, notice the bolded in the first quote.

[fionwe1987]

Noted. However I believe that the worst thing you could do is to try bullying your way with Rand. He doesn't seem to respond very well at that particular treatment (of course, depending on what you want to achieve). In this case it was to make Rand allow himself to feel emotions again and I don't think Cadsuanes bullying was anywhere near of making him do just that.

That wasn't why she behaved the way she did. As Sorelia correctly pointed out, that tactic was for the benefit of easing Rand's fears. The Aes Sedai who tried to FedEx him to Tar Valon, or forcibly bond him, or forcibly make him respect them all came in bearing flowers, smiles and praise, then showed the knife when it suited them. Cadsuane saw right away that if she approached him as a reasonable grandma he;d instinctively distrust her and lump her with the other AS he's dealt with.

 

By showing herself to be supremely unconcerned with gaining his goodwill, she was able to keep him intrigued, at the same time easing his fears:

 

The woman was deliberately trying to provoke him. The question was, why provoke a man she must know could still her, or kill her, without exerting himself? Lews Therin muttered the same thing. Why? Why? Stepping onto the dais, Rand took up the Dragon Scepter from the throne and sat, waiting to see what would happen. The woman was not going to succeed.

 

Right away, Rand is aware this woman is different.

 

Rand gaped at her. She swooped in, insulted him, threatened him, casually announced she knew about the voice in his head, and with that she wanted to leave and talk with Merana and Annoura? Is she mad? Still no answer from Lews Therin. The man was real. He was!

 

Go ahead and compare that to Rand's reaction when he meets both the Tower and the Rebel embassy the first time. By refusing to play that tired old game, Cadsuane changed the nature of their relationship. Which, as Sorilea guessed, was the point.

 

That is why I commented on the statement that Cadsuane always assess which method would work best. Maybe it's true for just her that in most situations bullying is the most effective method but she probably takes into account her own skills in handling the different tools. If you are an extremely good bully, bullying will more or less always be your preferred method of choice.

Except we've seen it isn't. She never tried to bully Sorelia or Amys. Sorelia she had heard of, but Amys she made the decision on after one brief meeting. Same with Verin. Aspects of Verin's behavior irritated Cadsuane and she knew there was a lot of faking to Verin's prattling. Instead of bullying her into silence, Cadsuane made use of it, and I can't come up with one scene where she was anything but civil to Verin. Same with Daigian and Kumira, women she could treat as servants, but whom she genuinely respected and made use of. Merise too, and Min and Nynaeve when they showed sense.

 

There's no doubt Cadsuane has high standards, and little patience for coddling flaws. For all that, calling her a bully makes no sense. A bully wants control. Needs it. A bully can accept underlings but never an equal. A bully can do well by someone, but will never do it so that after the event, that person becomes strong in their own right. Yet, from Jordan's own files, that's exactly what she did with Myriam Copan. She didn't create an undelring beholden to her. She whacked sense into the woman so that she could be strong in her own self.

 

I know its a trite comparison, but Cadsuane really is the strict schoolmistress or tough aunt. Except that unlike them, she really sees no limits to her jurisdiction. She has done more and seen more than any other character in the series, she is aware of it, and has no compunctions using that fact to make everyone a better person. She doles out praise when due, but doesn't ever coddle weakness, not even in herself. That makes her the opposite of a bully.

 

Think like this. One of Luckers complaints about Brandons writing is that he doesn’t try to write in areas he isn’t comfortable with. Brandon wants to write like he always does because that is when he feels he's in control. Well that same argument could be said about Cadsuane and her willingness to try another tool. What about listening to the person in question and then try reasoning with that person? I know, I know, people talking with each other and not at each other is a bit of a stretch but it would be refreshing to actually see it.

How would that have gone? The Wise Ones tried it and failed, as Sorelia pointed out to Cadsuane.

 

My biggest problem with her is that she knows how 'her kind' has treated the guy, with a couple of notable exceptions, and shouldn't come in there expecting him to give two craps about who she is.... the books could have just as easily had her walk in there and talk to him like a normal person and gotten the same results in the end.

 

No they really couldn't. Because "her kind" had done exactly that before, and had then bundled Rand away in a box. Read back to Coiren trying to nicely reason with Rand about going to Tar Valon with "all due honor". Rand would have lumped Cadsuane with the other AS who had betrayed him before, and sent her packing at the earliest possible moment.

 

I only said that because You said that Rand has become a bully at 20 - there's a good reason for that. And, seeing that WoT world is full of bullies, I don't even think he's one of the worst.

Cadsuane is quite aware that it isn't his "fault":

 

And Cadsuane.... Cadsuane touched Rand's pale face, brushed strands of hair from his forehead. "Do not be afraid, boy," she said softly. "They made my task harder, and yours, but I will not hurt you more than I must." Min turned to ice inside.

 

HEr point is not to assign blame on Rand. The fact was he was becoming a tyrant. And she had to stop that. If the world was destroyed, it would matter very little whetehrr Rand destroyed it out of his inherent evil or because he was pushed to it by Elaida. That was the reality in which Cadsuane operated. However much she sympathised with Rand (or Nynaeve), she couldn't show it. She needed them to grow up and do their jobs, or the world would end.

As I've said before, I really need to get through this reread to get a better take on how, and if, BS wrote Cads character incorrectly.

 

As for your secondly (Sorry, I took these out of order), her plan actually worked because of Tam. I said something like that up top. I wouldn't have a problem with her failing either if she tried. I don't agree with her methods. I don't see how someone who is supposed to be so wise would go to one of the most dangerous people in the world who has been misused and abused by many of her own order and decide to come at him the same way as they did. I don't see the wisdom in that.

She came at him entirely differently. She didn't hide her intentions. She made it clear she prioritized Rand over the Tower. She made it clear she had some demands that Rand had to meet so he could ger her as advisor.

 

None of these are things the other AS did. Perhaps Siuan, a little, in their brief interaction. Moiraine in bits and pieces. But mostly the Aes Sedai showed him respect, secretive manipulation, and no care for him. She did exactly the opposite.

[Mange]

First off, very well put and I do agree with your description of her reasons for behaving like that. My problem with her method is that there is a discrepancy between her objectives and her method. Her methods were used in order to earn Rands respect but not his trust which doesn’t resonate well with what she wanted to teach him.

 

Here is how I see Cadsuanes roll in the series. She saw that the way Rand were handling his feelings would not only be unhealthy to him but dangerous for the outcome of the last battle. There is really only one way of helping with a problem like that and that is by earning his trust. For all Cadsuanes plans (which you proved were well thought out and well executed) she did earn his respect but not his trust. He listened to her logic but not to her wisdom if that makes any sense.

 

In order to give myself a little credibility I use exhibit A; Tam. Rand completely trust his dad and do listen to his wisdom. It only took one scene until Tam had successfully countered all Rands fears and doubts about the outcome of the last battle and Rand started to feel a glimpse of hope (something Cadsuane never could inspire him to feel). It was only until Tam mentioned Cadsuanes name that the reunion went from ‘yaaaay-my-dad-is-here’ to ‘I’m-gonna-balefire-you-out-off- the-pattern-dad’. Rands reaction clearly showed how little he trusted Cadsuane and if she’s involved in any way he can’t trust it. It wouldn’t matter one bit how well Cadsuane would lay out her arguments to Rand he still wouldn’t take it into his heart like he did with Tam. Their whole relationship is completely off balance.

 

My whole point is if Cadsuane wanted to be an advisor to Rand, her method really worked well. However if she wanted to give Rand hope, make him connect with his feelings etc. etc., then no, she used wrong tools. By behaving like she did Rand respected her and would listen to logically, well-reasoned advice but he wouldn’t let her guide him.

[thisguy]

Noted. However I believe that the worst thing you could do is to try bullying your way with Rand. He doesn't seem to respond very well at that particular treatment (of course, depending on what you want to achieve). In this case it was to make Rand allow himself to feel emotions again and I don't think Cadsuanes bullying was anywhere near of making him do just that.

That wasn't why she behaved the way she did. As Sorelia correctly pointed out, that tactic was for the benefit of easing Rand's fears. The Aes Sedai who tried to FedEx him to Tar Valon, or forcibly bond him, or forcibly make him respect them all came in bearing flowers, smiles and praise, then showed the knife when it suited them. Cadsuane saw right away that if she approached him as a reasonable grandma he;d instinctively distrust her and lump her with the other AS he's dealt with.

 

By showing herself to be supremely unconcerned with gaining his goodwill, she was able to keep him intrigued, at the same time easing his fears:

 

The woman was deliberately trying to provoke him. The question was, why provoke a man she must know could still her, or kill her, without exerting himself? Lews Therin muttered the same thing. Why? Why? Stepping onto the dais, Rand took up the Dragon Scepter from the throne and sat, waiting to see what would happen. The woman was not going to succeed.

 

Right away, Rand is aware this woman is different.

 

Rand gaped at her. She swooped in, insulted him, threatened him, casually announced she knew about the voice in his head, and with that she wanted to leave and talk with Merana and Annoura? Is she mad? Still no answer from Lews Therin. The man was real. He was!

 

Go ahead and compare that to Rand's reaction when he meets both the Tower and the Rebel embassy the first time. By refusing to play that tired old game, Cadsuane changed the nature of their relationship. Which, as Sorilea guessed, was the point.

 

That is why I commented on the statement that Cadsuane always assess which method would work best. Maybe it's true for just her that in most situations bullying is the most effective method but she probably takes into account her own skills in handling the different tools. If you are an extremely good bully, bullying will more or less always be your preferred method of choice.

Except we've seen it isn't. She never tried to bully Sorelia or Amys. Sorelia she had heard of, but Amys she made the decision on after one brief meeting. Same with Verin. Aspects of Verin's behavior irritated Cadsuane and she knew there was a lot of faking to Verin's prattling. Instead of bullying her into silence, Cadsuane made use of it, and I can't come up with one scene where she was anything but civil to Verin. Same with Daigian and Kumira, women she could treat as servants, but whom she genuinely respected and made use of. Merise too, and Min and Nynaeve when they showed sense.

 

There's no doubt Cadsuane has high standards, and little patience for coddling flaws. For all that, calling her a bully makes no sense. A bully wants control. Needs it. A bully can accept underlings but never an equal. A bully can do well by someone, but will never do it so that after the event, that person becomes strong in their own right. Yet, from Jordan's own files, that's exactly what she did with Myriam Copan. She didn't create an undelring beholden to her. She whacked sense into the woman so that she could be strong in her own self.

 

I know its a trite comparison, but Cadsuane really is the strict schoolmistress or tough aunt. Except that unlike them, she really sees no limits to her jurisdiction. She has done more and seen more than any other character in the series, she is aware of it, and has no compunctions using that fact to make everyone a better person. She doles out praise when due, but doesn't ever coddle weakness, not even in herself. That makes her the opposite of a bully.

 

Think like this. One of Luckers complaints about Brandons writing is that he doesn’t try to write in areas he isn’t comfortable with. Brandon wants to write like he always does because that is when he feels he's in control. Well that same argument could be said about Cadsuane and her willingness to try another tool. What about listening to the person in question and then try reasoning with that person? I know, I know, people talking with each other and not at each other is a bit of a stretch but it would be refreshing to actually see it.

How would that have gone? The Wise Ones tried it and failed, as Sorelia pointed out to Cadsuane.

 

My biggest problem with her is that she knows how 'her kind' has treated the guy, with a couple of notable exceptions, and shouldn't come in there expecting him to give two craps about who she is.... the books could have just as easily had her walk in there and talk to him like a normal person and gotten the same results in the end.

 

No they really couldn't. Because "her kind" had done exactly that before, and had then bundled Rand away in a box. Read back to Coiren trying to nicely reason with Rand about going to Tar Valon with "all due honor". Rand would have lumped Cadsuane with the other AS who had betrayed him before, and sent her packing at the earliest possible moment.

 

I only said that because You said that Rand has become a bully at 20 - there's a good reason for that. And, seeing that WoT world is full of bullies, I don't even think he's one of the worst.

Cadsuane is quite aware that it isn't his "fault":

 

And Cadsuane.... Cadsuane touched Rand's pale face, brushed strands of hair from his forehead. "Do not be afraid, boy," she said softly. "They made my task harder, and yours, but I will not hurt you more than I must." Min turned to ice inside.

 

HEr point is not to assign blame on Rand. The fact was he was becoming a tyrant. And she had to stop that. If the world was destroyed, it would matter very little whetehrr Rand destroyed it out of his inherent evil or because he was pushed to it by Elaida. That was the reality in which Cadsuane operated. However much she sympathised with Rand (or Nynaeve), she couldn't show it. She needed them to grow up and do their jobs, or the world would end.

As I've said before, I really need to get through this reread to get a better take on how, and if, BS wrote Cads character incorrectly.

 

As for your secondly (Sorry, I took these out of order), her plan actually worked because of Tam. I said something like that up top. I wouldn't have a problem with her failing either if she tried. I don't agree with her methods. I don't see how someone who is supposed to be so wise would go to one of the most dangerous people in the world who has been misused and abused by many of her own order and decide to come at him the same way as they did. I don't see the wisdom in that.

She came at him entirely differently. She didn't hide her intentions. She made it clear she prioritized Rand over the Tower. She made it clear she had some demands that Rand had to meet so he could ger her as advisor.

 

None of these are things the other AS did. Perhaps Siuan, a little, in their brief interaction. Moiraine in bits and pieces. But mostly the Aes Sedai showed him respect, secretive manipulation, and no care for him. She did exactly the opposite.

I'm on my way to work and can't go through this yet all the way, but from the bottom up: no, she did not make it clear to Rand until sometime after the fog incident. She just came storming into his rooms while he was talking with Berelain without permission; which I find funny as she's a stickler for manners.

[thisguy]

Noted. However I believe that the worst thing you could do is to try bullying your way with Rand. He doesn't seem to respond very well at that particular treatment (of course, depending on what you want to achieve). In this case it was to make Rand allow himself to feel emotions again and I don't think Cadsuanes bullying was anywhere near of making him do just that.

That wasn't why she behaved the way she did. As Sorelia correctly pointed out, that tactic was for the benefit of easing Rand's fears. The Aes Sedai who tried to FedEx him to Tar Valon, or forcibly bond him, or forcibly make him respect them all came in bearing flowers, smiles and praise, then showed the knife when it suited them. Cadsuane saw right away that if she approached him as a reasonable grandma he;d instinctively distrust her and lump her with the other AS he's dealt with.

 

By showing herself to be supremely unconcerned with gaining his goodwill, she was able to keep him intrigued, at the same time easing his fears:

 

The woman was deliberately trying to provoke him. The question was, why provoke a man she must know could still her, or kill her, without exerting himself? Lews Therin muttered the same thing. Why? Why? Stepping onto the dais, Rand took up the Dragon Scepter from the throne and sat, waiting to see what would happen. The woman was not going to succeed.

 

Right away, Rand is aware this woman is different.

 

Rand gaped at her. She swooped in, insulted him, threatened him, casually announced she knew about the voice in his head, and with that she wanted to leave and talk with Merana and Annoura? Is she mad? Still no answer from Lews Therin. The man was real. He was!

 

Go ahead and compare that to Rand's reaction when he meets both the Tower and the Rebel embassy the first time. By refusing to play that tired old game, Cadsuane changed the nature of their relationship. Which, as Sorilea guessed, was the point.

 

That is why I commented on the statement that Cadsuane always assess which method would work best. Maybe it's true for just her that in most situations bullying is the most effective method but she probably takes into account her own skills in handling the different tools. If you are an extremely good bully, bullying will more or less always be your preferred method of choice.

Except we've seen it isn't. She never tried to bully Sorelia or Amys. Sorelia she had heard of, but Amys she made the decision on after one brief meeting. Same with Verin. Aspects of Verin's behavior irritated Cadsuane and she knew there was a lot of faking to Verin's prattling. Instead of bullying her into silence, Cadsuane made use of it, and I can't come up with one scene where she was anything but civil to Verin. Same with Daigian and Kumira, women she could treat as servants, but whom she genuinely respected and made use of. Merise too, and Min and Nynaeve when they showed sense.

 

There's no doubt Cadsuane has high standards, and little patience for coddling flaws. For all that, calling her a bully makes no sense. A bully wants control. Needs it. A bully can accept underlings but never an equal. A bully can do well by someone, but will never do it so that after the event, that person becomes strong in their own right. Yet, from Jordan's own files, that's exactly what she did with Myriam Copan. She didn't create an undelring beholden to her. She whacked sense into the woman so that she could be strong in her own self.

 

I know its a trite comparison, but Cadsuane really is the strict schoolmistress or tough aunt. Except that unlike them, she really sees no limits to her jurisdiction. She has done more and seen more than any other character in the series, she is aware of it, and has no compunctions using that fact to make everyone a better person. She doles out praise when due, but doesn't ever coddle weakness, not even in herself. That makes her the opposite of a bully.

 

Think like this. One of Luckers complaints about Brandons writing is that he doesn’t try to write in areas he isn’t comfortable with. Brandon wants to write like he always does because that is when he feels he's in control. Well that same argument could be said about Cadsuane and her willingness to try another tool. What about listening to the person in question and then try reasoning with that person? I know, I know, people talking with each other and not at each other is a bit of a stretch but it would be refreshing to actually see it.

How would that have gone? The Wise Ones tried it and failed, as Sorelia pointed out to Cadsuane.

 

My biggest problem with her is that she knows how 'her kind' has treated the guy, with a couple of notable exceptions, and shouldn't come in there expecting him to give two craps about who she is.... the books could have just as easily had her walk in there and talk to him like a normal person and gotten the same results in the end.

 

No they really couldn't. Because "her kind" had done exactly that before, and had then bundled Rand away in a box. Read back to Coiren trying to nicely reason with Rand about going to Tar Valon with "all due honor". Rand would have lumped Cadsuane with the other AS who had betrayed him before, and sent her packing at the earliest possible moment.

 

I only said that because You said that Rand has become a bully at 20 - there's a good reason for that. And, seeing that WoT world is full of bullies, I don't even think he's one of the worst.

Cadsuane is quite aware that it isn't his "fault":

 

And Cadsuane.... Cadsuane touched Rand's pale face, brushed strands of hair from his forehead. "Do not be afraid, boy," she said softly. "They made my task harder, and yours, but I will not hurt you more than I must." Min turned to ice inside.

 

HEr point is not to assign blame on Rand. The fact was he was becoming a tyrant. And she had to stop that. If the world was destroyed, it would matter very little whetehrr Rand destroyed it out of his inherent evil or because he was pushed to it by Elaida. That was the reality in which Cadsuane operated. However much she sympathised with Rand (or Nynaeve), she couldn't show it. She needed them to grow up and do their jobs, or the world would end.

As I've said before, I really need to get through this reread to get a better take on how, and if, BS wrote Cads character incorrectly.

 

As for your secondly (Sorry, I took these out of order), her plan actually worked because of Tam. I said something like that up top. I wouldn't have a problem with her failing either if she tried. I don't agree with her methods. I don't see how someone who is supposed to be so wise would go to one of the most dangerous people in the world who has been misused and abused by many of her own order and decide to come at him the same way as they did. I don't see the wisdom in that.

She came at him entirely differently. She didn't hide her intentions. She made it clear she prioritized Rand over the Tower. She made it clear she had some demands that Rand had to meet so he could ger her as advisor.

 

None of these are things the other AS did. Perhaps Siuan, a little, in their brief interaction. Moiraine in bits and pieces. But mostly the Aes Sedai showed him respect, secretive manipulation, and no care for him. She did exactly the opposite.

Rand was not a tyrant when Cads came through. In fact, a great argument could be made that he ruled people better than their rulers. He made all the nobles have to follow the same laws with the same repercussions as the commoners. He made sure people were fed and safer than their own nobles could make them. In fact, the council in Illian give him the crown they say because he sent grain from Tear so their people didn't starve. If he became tyrannical, it wasn't until AFTER Cadsuane came into his life. Just to be clear, I'm not blaming her for that, I'm putting the timeline in correct order.

 

No, her kind did nothing of the sort. They came in reasonable from the Tower but not honest.

 

As I've mentioned in the post above, Cadsuane did not tell Rand her intentions when she first came into his rooms. In fact, she was rude (She likes to shove his manners in his face) and didn't even know about the AS from the Tower sticking him in a box. Moreover, she didn't even try to find out until after the fog incident. She went in their with limited intel and didn't even try to get any - like a bull in a china shop. If any of the battle commanders did so before battle (unless they had no choice), we'd think they'd have done a bad job.

 

What's more, Rand was in no way unreasonable at this point. In fact, during the fog incident, Cadsuane tells him and the Lords with the swords that they'll basically use magic and they should use their swords. This was done in a way asking Rand not to use saidan. He nodded yes with no argument, quicker than I've seen most AS respond to a request or order. Rand goes overboard in the books to come but when Cads came around, he had a bad temper but treated people well. He took every death caused by him, whether his fault or not, onto his own shoulders. THAT was his biggest problem. Much of the anger stems from that, too.