Side of Light vs Side of the DO

[Suttree]

I don't know that the DO and the Creator are equals. Does anyone know if RJ ever commented on this?

 

Interview: Jun 26th, 1996

Compuserve Chat (Verbatim)

Martin Reznick

 

How was the Dark One created, i.e. is he a fallen angel, an inherent part of the universe, etc.?

Robert Jordan

 

I envision the Dark One as being the dark counterpart, the dark balance if you will, to the Creator...carrying on the theme, the ying yang, light dark, necessity of balance theme that has run through the books. It's somewhat Manichean i know, but I think it works.

[thisguy]

I don't know that the DO and the Creator are equals. Does anyone know if RJ ever commented on this?

 

Interview: Jun 26th, 1996

Compuserve Chat (Verbatim)

Martin Reznick

 

How was the Dark One created, i.e. is he a fallen angel, an inherent part of the universe, etc.?

Robert Jordan

 

I envision the Dark One as being the dark counterpart, the dark balance if you will, to the Creator...carrying on the theme, the ying yang, light dark, necessity of balance theme that has run through the books. It's somewhat Manichean i know, but I think it works.

 

Thanks. I guess he got his ass kicked then. Doesn't make complete sense to me but that's cool.

[nolirion]

Well I understand what you say , and there is room for the argument in the perception common people In the WoT have of the True Source , but the True Source is something the Creator made . So as I see it it cannot be the "light " ,as in the essence of all good and order that is the Creator as opposed to what the Dark one is , the essence of chaos and evil . If you think about it when Rand had is epiphany he held and enormous amount of the one power and was still been attacked by the shadow corruption , the one power is a neutral kind of power .

The one power comes from the True Source , the driving force of creation , the force the Creator made to turn the Wheel of time

 

The True Source is the "live-force" of the Universe

 

 

The Powers: The DO is meant to be the opposite of the Creator. Therefore it is wrong to say the DO is evil. The DO represents destruction/chaos as the Creator does creation/order. Good and evil are human terms that we use to measure the acts of ourselves and others. By human terms of morality the DO may be seen as evil, but the two entities are outside the understanding of humans. To me the DO is no more evil than a Creator who will not take part to save creation.

 

The "Prison": I do not believe the DO is imprisoned, at least not in the way mortals seem to believe. They spout their catechism about the DO being imprisoned by the Creator at the moment of creation. This is absurd. If the two powers are equal then the DO could not be imprisoned. I believe creation is protected from the DO by some barrier and It is trying to worm It's way into the world in order to destroy creation, because that is It's nature.

 

I agree. The way the Dark One's 'prison' is described, it sounds more like he has simply been locked out of the Wheel.

Always thought the term "prison" came to be used from the Lew Therin Strike at the end of the war of the power more then actual theology . Earlier I said the creator made a special dimension for the Do .

When the Creator did creation he created balance , perhaps it as much a choice as an impracticability for him to not engage in the salvation of his creation . Rand is perhaps the only one capable of reaching out to the entity known as the creator and vice-versa .

What I am trying to say is that creation as an entity is as powerful or perhaps more powerful then either the creator or the Do .

Why would the Creator make a special dimension for DO, they are meant to be equals. I prefer to think that the Creator and DO exist in a different dimension. Creation exists in a physical dimension(s) we would call the universe. The entities are outside of our space/time.

What I am saying is akin to what Lurker said , as Suttree quote before the Creator and the Do are opposite been , one of order and "goodness" the other of chaos and evil . I always tough about Ahriman and Ahura mazda the two opposite deities of Zoroastrianism Persian ancient religion , they share most of the nature of the Creator and the Do .

In essence the Creator and the Do are equally powerful , there are opposite and they where equal , but creation change all that .By creating the universe (Wheel of time and the pattern) he/she did not increase it's power but he made something as powerful as him . But power is not the good word , where there was nothing , there is something that can impact , time and space , either entity in vast different way .

In a way you are right the creator and the Do live in a separate dimension , but think as creation as a buffer between them , and the creator made another buffer for the Do , a buffer the Do can't tamper with , he couldn't affect the pattern before the bore .

It is funny how the Do as no real free will in this context .

[holiday]

I agree. The way the Dark One's 'prison' is described, it sounds more like he has simply been locked out of the Wheel.

This is part of a point of confusion for me. The Wheel is sustained by the Creator, as it is driven by the True Source which derives from him. The Dark One is separated from the Wheel, but seeks to exert his influence and destroy it. What makes me scratch my head about this set up, though, is the Dark One's statement to Demandred that "even I [the DO] cannot step outside of time." Being outside the Wheel would mean being outside of time, and being 'trapped' inside time would imply existing within the Wheel. Is the Dark One simply referring to his inability reverse the wheel to recall Rahvin's sould? I don't think so, considering the anger which accompanies his statement and the way in which he treats every Forsaken except Ishamael. I think he's somehow trapped inside the Wheel, made a part of it, but unable to influence it under normal circumstances. This would imply that in the ongoing struggle between the Creator and the Dark One, the Creator currently has the upper hand, but only contingently. This allows for their Manichaean opposition as well as the Dark One's position of weakness (relative to the Creator) in Rand's world.

[pdevlin1]

What if, in order to create balance in the world, the Creator needed to create the DO but in limiting his power to touch the world (prison) also had to limit his own power to touch the world (separate prison). Opening the DO's prison means that there is more evil and chaos in the world and things are out of balance. In the same way the Creator's prison could be opened and restore balance to the land. We assume the Creator wouldn't abuse the power that he has as the DO has. But perhaps the power could be used to help reseal the DO in his prison.

[thisguy]

It almost seems as if the Creator created the Wheel to imprison the DO.

[Zorlon]

I agree. The way the Dark One's 'prison' is described, it sounds more like he has simply been locked out of the Wheel.

This is part of a point of confusion for me. The Wheel is sustained by the Creator, as it is driven by the True Source which derives from him. The Dark One is separated from the Wheel, but seeks to exert his influence and destroy it. What makes me scratch my head about this set up, though, is the Dark One's statement to Demandred that "even I [the DO] cannot step outside of time." Being outside the Wheel would mean being outside of time, and being 'trapped' inside time would imply existing within the Wheel. Is the Dark One simply referring to his inability reverse the wheel to recall Rahvin's sould? I don't think so, considering the anger which accompanies his statement and the way in which he treats every Forsaken except Ishamael. I think he's somehow trapped inside the Wheel, made a part of it, but unable to influence it under normal circumstances. This would imply that in the ongoing struggle between the Creator and the Dark One, the Creator currently has the upper hand, but only contingently. This allows for their Manichaean opposition as well as the Dark One's position of weakness (relative to the Creator) in Rand's world.

 

The Ogier come from their own world, a parallel world, not a mirror world. A world with it's own Wheel with no reflection in Randland's TAR. For all intents and purposes they come from an independent universe.

 

Yet in every revolution of the Wheel the Ogier still come to the world we know during Randland's second age. As though their homeworld's separate Wheel revolves in sync with Randland's.

 

Perhaps, in the WoT's cosmology, time itself is a property separate from any world, and one which even the DO and the Creator are subject to.