Seanchan and the AoL

[thisguy]

...

 

All along I have said they could do more and their culture is flawed. The fact is they weren't even truly aware of the existence of the BA until recently. Once they where sisters like Cads(she was on the verge of rotting them out) and Verin worked against them. You can't say AS are evil and to blame for BA actions because they were unsuccessful in doing so.

 

What AS are not responsible for is a seperate and distinct organization that Ishy started. AS swear under the light and have a mandate to fight the Shdaow. Forsaken and BA swear seperate oaths and have a totally seperate mandate. You can not call that going "rogue".

 

@thiguy

 

Are you seriously trying to say Alviarin had Elaida's ear and she was going along with her because she thought it was a good idea? She had blackmailed her and was using force to make her do things against her will.

 

Also you do realize Siuan's deposing was legally not valid correct? Even though Elaida thought she was in the right the BA were pulling the strings. They had forced the forced the search to go underground in the first place. In addition they arranged the vote so a bare minimum of sitters was present and a BA member cast the deciding vote. The whole things on those grounds was not legal.

No, I said that Alviarin was the second in command and the head of the Red Ajah who is a darkfriend had Elaida's ear. When I get home I can give you the exact quote. The only woman in the tower Elaida will listen to.

The fact that Siuane deposing wasn't legally valid and so many AS took part in it only supports my contention that the AS are not a uniform group. How you don't see that, I don't understand.

 

It doesn't matter if the forsaken have sworn separate oaths - what matters about that is, that at best, the AS have not been able to root out df in their own camp is not even as important as that they suspected them for decades and did nothing. They've trained DFs as AS and you think they have no responsibility for this. You're wrong. Sorry.

[thisguy]

...

 

All along I have said they could do more and their culture is flawed. The fact is they weren't even truly aware of the existence of the BA until recently. What they are not responsible for is a seperate and distinct organization that Ishy started. AS swear under the light and have a mandate to fight the Shdaow. Forsaken and BA swear seperate oaths and have a totally seperate mandate. You can not call that going "rogue".

 

I call it going rogue because they train and equip them. Without the Tower, what would these BA have? They give the ability to wreak the havoc, so aren't they responsible to ensure it doesn't happen? And if it does happen, to stop it?

 

Which sister like Cads and Verin did once they became aware of their existence. Further they were ultimately successful in stopping it. The WT was targeted by Ishy precisely because the opportunity of power available. From the BA's inception they have had seperate oaths and goals that run counter to the mandate of the WT. That is the only distinction I have been making from the start. They are a totally seperate institution and the DO is responsible for their actions.

 

There's the disconnect.

 

We're using responsible differently.

 

You're using it as Responsible for, or the mastermind behind.

I'm using it as Responsible for, will be held accountable for the actions of.

 

As in, the DO caused the mess, but the WT has to clean up the mess.

 

I'm not saying that the WT is the mastermind behind the BA (I don't think anyone is saying that) what I (and others) am saying is the WT has a responsibility to police it's persons, and when someone whom they have empowered goes off, they are responsible for stopping them.

 

Do you agree with the above?

exactly

[thisguy]

...

 

All along I have said they could do more and their culture is flawed. The fact is they weren't even truly aware of the existence of the BA until recently. What they are not responsible for is a seperate and distinct organization that Ishy started. AS swear under the light and have a mandate to fight the Shdaow. Forsaken and BA swear seperate oaths and have a totally seperate mandate. You can not call that going "rogue".

 

I call it going rogue because they train and equip them. Without the Tower, what would these BA have? They give the ability to wreak the havoc, so aren't they responsible to ensure it doesn't happen? And if it does happen, to stop it?

 

Which sister like Cads and Verin did once they became aware of their existence. Further they were ultimately successful in stopping it. The WT was targeted by Ishy precisely because the opportunity of power available. From the BA's inception they have had seperate oaths and goals that run counter to the mandate of the WT. They have literally abandoned any connection to the WT at that point.That is the only distinction I have been making from the start. They are a totally seperate institution and the DO is responsible for their actions.

Yes, sisters, not the tower. Cads and Verin are like Serpico - The NYPD's core is corrupt and only one cop does anything about it. I applaud these two sisters but not the tower. This also reinforces what I said about the Tower being a mixed bag.

The members of the BA do not abandon their connection with the tower until the tower finds out about each individual member. We have a head of an Ajah and the Keeper off the top of my head acting as members and giving directions - how are they not part of the Tower? Sorry, you're wrong.

[Suttree]

No, I said that Alviarin was the second in command and the head of the Red Ajah who is a darkfriend had Elaida's ear. When I get home I can give you the exact quote. The only woman in the tower Elaida will listen to.

 

Not sure what part of "blackmailed" you aren't getting. She was forced to listen to her, she didn't want to. Also Alviarin not only isn't the head of the Red Ajah, she sin't even in it. She is a white.

 

The fact that Siuane deposing wasn't legally valid and so many AS took part in it only supports my contention that the AS are not a uniform group. How you don't see that, I don't understand.

 

What is this in reference to? When have I ever said they are a uniform group. I have talked openly about different factions and the good, bad and average sisters.

 

Yes, sisters, not the tower. Cads and Verin are like Serpico - The NYPD's core is corrupt and only one cop does anything about it. I applaud these two sisters but not the tower.

 

and the BA hunters once they became aware of the actual situation?

 

You're wrong. Sorry.

 

LOL, ok glad that is settled.

 

See Mr Ares post above, he has shown some of the holes in your sides argument and gets my point.

[thisguy]

No, I said that Alviarin was the second in command and the head of the Red Ajah who is a darkfriend had Elaida's ear. When I get home I can give you the exact quote. The only woman in the tower Elaida will listen to.

 

Not sure what part of "blackmailed" you aren't getting. She was forced to listen to her, she didn't want to. Also Alviarin not only isn't the head of the Red Ajah, she sin't even in it. She is a white.

 

The fact that Siuane deposing wasn't legally valid and so many AS took part in it only supports my contention that the AS are not a uniform group. How you don't see that, I don't understand.

 

What is this in reference to? When have I ever said they are a uniform group. I have talked openly about different factions and the good, bad and average sisters.

 

Yes, sisters, not the tower. Cads and Verin are like Serpico - The NYPD's core is corrupt and only one cop does anything about it. I applaud these two sisters but not the tower.

 

and the BA hunters once they became aware of the actual situation?

 

You're wrong. Sorry.

 

LOL, ok glad that is settled.

 

See Mr Ares post above, he has shown the many holes in your argument and gets my point.

 

Are you not reading what I wrote? I said Alviarin is the Keeper. Then, I said the Head of the Red Ajah - a totally different human being from Alviarin - is a DF and has Elaida's ear. She's the only person in the Tower Elaida will speak to. I can give you a quote later, if you'd like. You're the one who brought up blackmailed and, yes, that has to do with Elaida. These are two separate women of high rank in the AS. One ends up blackmailing her, the other doesn't have to. That has nothing to do with my point that you cannot say these women are not AS when they are in the AS's highest ranks. If the AS had even tried to find the BA for the 20 years prior, you might have an argument.

 

As for uniformed group - I've said this a million times in my arguments and you're just taking note. They are not uniform - so, they are a mixed bag. So, some AS have been doing good and some haven't and some both - whatever serves them. I've been saying this for days now.

 

The Tower sent out 3 untrained girls to hunt them, at least 20 years after suspecting there were BA in their ranks. They're lucky that the girls are central to the story or they probably would have died.

 

Edit to add: I mentioned the head of the Red Ajah in her own post on the page prior to this.

[thisguy]

What is this in reference to? When have I ever said they are a uniform group. I have talked openly about different factions and the good, bad and average sisters.

I missed this earlier. We started discussing this the other day. You said the Tower has done all this good, I said they've done bad, too. I've been arguing for days that they are a mixed bag.

The fact that Siuane wasn't legally deposed and that the person behind it was not even BA and that sisters and warders were killed because of these actions shows that the Tower has some seriously problems and not everything they do is wonderful. This was my original point days ago.

[Suttree]

No, I said that Alviarin was the second in command and the head of the Red Ajah who is a darkfriend had Elaida's ear. When I get home I can give you the exact quote. The only woman in the tower Elaida will listen to.

 

Not sure what part of "blackmailed" you aren't getting. She was forced to listen to her, she didn't want to. Also Alviarin not only isn't the head of the Red Ajah, she sin't even in it. She is a white.

 

The fact that Siuane deposing wasn't legally valid and so many AS took part in it only supports my contention that the AS are not a uniform group. How you don't see that, I don't understand.

 

What is this in reference to? When have I ever said they are a uniform group. I have talked openly about different factions and the good, bad and average sisters.

 

Yes, sisters, not the tower. Cads and Verin are like Serpico - The NYPD's core is corrupt and only one cop does anything about it. I applaud these two sisters but not the tower.

 

and the BA hunters once they became aware of the actual situation?

 

You're wrong. Sorry.

 

LOL, ok glad that is settled.

 

See Mr Ares post above, he has shown the many holes in your argument and gets my point.

 

Are you not reading what I wrote? I said Alviarin is the Keeper. Then, I said the Head of the Red Ajah - a totally different human being from Alviarin - is a DF and has Elaida's ear. She's the only person in the Tower Elaida will speak to. I can give you a quote later, if you'd like. You're the one who brought up blackmailed and, yes, that has to do with Elaida. These are two separate women of high rank in the AS. One ends up blackmailing her, the other doesn't have to. That has nothing to do with my point that you cannot say these women are not AS when they are in the AS's highest ranks. If the AS had even tried to find the BA for the 20 years prior, you might have an argument.

 

As for uniformed group - I've said this a million times in my arguments and you're just taking note. They are not uniform - so, they are a mixed bag. So, some AS have been doing good and some haven't and some both - whatever serves them. I've been saying this for days now.

 

The Tower sent out 3 untrained girls to hunt them, at least 20 years after suspecting there were BA in their ranks. They're lucky that the girls are central to the story or they probably would have died.

 

What you wrote wasn't clear, my mistake.. Further for the last time I have never disputed the fact that they are a mixed bag. I have never, ever said they have done only good and I thank you not to speak for me. That still changes nothing about my point in relation ot the BA. Further your point that a women who works for a seperate organization is in Elaida's inner council does nothing to support you argument.

 

Again as I said Mr Ares clearly represented our side.

http://www.dragonmou...20#entry2488837

 

Respond to his post if you wish but I can't keep pulling your rapid fire stream of conscious type posts together.

[thisguy]

Of course it has everything to do with my argument. You say the BA are not AS. However, the BA is in even the highest offices of the AS. They have helped a non-BA AS to take the Seat. The only person the AS will listen to is a high level AS who is BA. How are these women not AS to the entire world? The have the training and are accepted as part of the order by the order.

[thisguy]

I'd have to go back in look but you said for 3000 years how they've done all these wonderful things. I said they've done bad too. That's how this whole argument started.

[Treebeard]

please delete

[thisguy]

protip: you cannot argue that institution A is responsible for action type 1 but not action type 2 simply because you like the results of action type 1 better. Either they are responsible for every action their members perform or every action is the result of individual members. Arguing anything else, regardless of how many times you repost it, shows you have a flawed understanding of philosophy, debate, and most importantly logic.

 

Protip? Bwhahah. Ok this isn't this first time you have jumped into a thread to focus on me and not the topic. I didnt argue what you are stating above and certainly not for the reasons given. You are missing the point entirely and I thank you not to presume to speak for me.

 

As others have mentioned in this thread Forsaken and BA cease to be AS once they swear to the DO. They have joined a "new institution" and sworn new oaths(literally). Now if you can show me once where I have done what you claim for the actions of "AS" I will debate with you. Until then you are merely trolling and given the way you frequently spin things I am starting to think it is purposeful.

i never mentioned the forsaken. i purposefully did not lean one way or the other interms of siding with you or everyone else on whether the tower is responsible for the BA because i couldn't give a flying f*ck what anyone thinks on the topic. to the rest of the world and tower, the BA are AS. even after they are caught, people think of them as darkfriend AS (some might also think the opposite, can't recall). if individuals doing evil acts do not represent the institution, then individuals doing good acts do not represent the institution, only individuals. on the contrary, if the good acts reflect positively on the institution then the bad acts reflect negatively. any philosophy101 or simple google search would tell you that.

 

call me a troll if you want to, but it does not change the fact that you are wrong in the way you are arguing and repeating it ad nauseum will not change it. i had to be condescending because i wanted it simple so you would understand it. obviously i had to spell it out more because you either still didn't understand or just decided to go "na na can't hear you. not listening." if you act like a child and i respond to you like you are a child, does that make me a troll? (decide for yourself if that was a real question or a philosophical one)

What Suttree is arguing is that the BA are not AS. By swearing to the Shadow, they cease to be AS from that day forth (if you swore before becoming AS, you were never AS to begin with). The WT is not to blame for the actions of non-AS, even if they appear to be AS, and even if those actions are good or bad. The argument you put forth is thus flawed. The actions of individuals who do not belong to the institution do not reflect on the institution. Granted, BA might appear to be AS. By the same token, any woman could put on a shawl and a ring and call herself AS. The WT could not claim credit for any good she did, nor accept blame for any bad she did.

Here's the big sticking point - they are accountable for their actions. They do nothing to root out or discover BA within their ranks even though they've suspected them being there. They've trained darkfriends to become Aes Sedai. They allow these women to use the power and clout of the tower. The point about them taking other oaths only proves that they are DFs, it doesn't stop them from being in every other way AS. They where the ring, they use the power of the Tower for their own needs, the more powerful of them order around the less powerful AS, Alviarin is the Keeper and she's a DF. The head of the Red Ajah is a BA. How are they not AS? In all ways they are to the entire world, including other AS the interact with. Any other woman who put on the stole would just be out and out lying. They were never trained by the AS, the AS would never back them up.

US soldiers take an oath to uphold the Constitution against enemies, foreign or domestic. If they, themselves, become the enemy, they must first be tried and then get a DD before they're no longer considered soldiers. IF an AS commits a crime that the Tower would still them for, they are AS until tried and stilled.

To the entire world they are AS. And, as I've already said, the Tower has done nothing to stop them even though they've suspected for years and years. They are completely the responsibility of the Tower. The AS cannot, or should not, go around telling others how to run their lives or kingdoms if they cannot control the women in their ranks. Not only cannot, do not even try.

If one commits a crime, one is a criminal from the time the crime is committed, not from the time one is convicted. Even if one is never convicted, never even suspected, one is still a criminal. When an AS is stripped of stole and staff, that is when she is formally acknowledged as no longer being part of the order. It doesn't mean that she did not forfeit the right to call herself AS before then, even if she did so unbeknownst to the AS order. When the church excommunicates someone, the excommunication is caused by the action, whether or not the church issues a formal acknowledgement of one being excommunicated. By joining the Shadow, they have forfeited the right to be called AS. They have, in effect, resigned as AS, even though they haven't announced it. As Egwene said, a vote from a BA sitter is not valid.

 

What Suttree is arguing is that the BA are not AS. By swearing to the Shadow, they cease to be AS from that day forth (if you swore before becoming AS, you were never AS to begin with). The WT is not to blame for the actions of non-AS, even if they appear to be AS, and even if those actions are good or bad. The argument you put forth is thus flawed. The actions of individuals who do not belong to the institution do not reflect on the institution. Granted, BA might appear to be AS. By the same token, any woman could put on a shawl and a ring and call herself AS. The WT could not claim credit for any good she did, nor accept blame for any bad she did.

 

And short is claiming that argument is flawed. If they train these women, equip these women, and refuse to monitor these women, who is to blame? I believe the original point was, the WT should be held responsible for the flawed practices that allowed the BA to grow and flourish. Now we're arguing that is an AS does something negative, suddenly they're no longer AS. Or if an AS joins the group, and gets all the benefits, while being a double agent, that they're suddenly not held accountable?

What shortkut put forward was the notion that Suttree was claiming the AS got credit for the good the WT did, but not the bad. I was disagreeing with that notion - the good and bad done by the WT as an organisation are both the responsibility of the WT as an organisation. BA are not a part of that organisation, therefore the WT gets no credit for their good nor blame for their bad - they might have responsibility, but not blame. Yes, there are deficiencies in the WT's policing of those that call themselves AS. Elaida is not Black. The WT could claim credit for the good she did, but must also accept blame for the bad she did. Alviarin is Black. The WT can claim no credit for any good she might have done in her time, but nor are they to blame for the bad she did, except insofar as she was acting under the orders of the WT. Suttree is not trying to claim the AS only get credit for the good stuff, which is what shortkut tried to present his position as. He is claiming that they do not get the blame for BA - they can still take the blame for bad choices made by the WT itself. That is a rather more reasonable position. Evil done by the WT belongs to the WT, evil done by the BA belongs to the BA. The WT, as a failed institution, might not have done enough to police their own organisation, and in doing so allowed to BA to take root there. They are not to blame for the BA's actions, they are responsible for trying to root them out.

 

Let's try this. I think this was what short was getting at. When are the WT responsible for the actions of it's members? Only when something positive is done? Only when the members are still in the tower? When are they absolved of that responsibility? Once the BA comes out and says, HEY, i'M BA? By your statement above, any action Liadrian did, even when the Tower didn't know she was a covert agent, is not the tower's responsibility.

The problem with what short was getting at it that it did not address the point made that BA are not a part of the organisation. They are not members of the WT. A better question would be when are they responsible for the actions of their former members, but that was not one shortkut asked.

Your argument is completely philosophical and not realistic. A criminal is only a criminal because of laws to begin with. Laws are manmade. Men have to enforce the laws. A cop who breaks the law in a manner where he can lose his badge is still a cop until tried and convicted. Same with the AS.

Until BA have been formally kicked out of the AS, they are AS.

[Vardar]

@ Sutt, you didn't answer my question waaaaayyy above.

[Suttree]

I'd have to go back in look but you said for 3000 years how they've done all these wonderful things. I said they've done bad too. That's how this whole argument started.

 

Here let me help you. Here is what I said.

 

Wondering what you would consider petty? The AS's main task has been holding the shadow at bay for 3,000 years. They saved the world in the Trolloc Wars and it is because of AS that the Dragon was even born. Yes the institution has failed in method but you can't doubt their goals.

 

protip: you cannot argue that institution A is responsible for action type 1 but not action type 2 simply because you like the results of action type 1 better. Either they are responsible for every action their members perform or every action is the result of individual members. Arguing anything else, regardless of how many times you repost it, shows you have a flawed understanding of philosophy, debate, and most importantly logic.

 

Protip? Bwhahah. Ok this isn't this first time you have jumped into a thread to focus on me and not the topic. I didnt argue what you are stating above and certainly not for the reasons given. You are missing the point entirely and I thank you not to presume to speak for me.

 

As others have mentioned in this thread Forsaken and BA cease to be AS once they swear to the DO. They have joined a "new institution" and sworn new oaths(literally). Now if you can show me once where I have done what you claim for the actions of "AS" I will debate with you. Until then you are merely trolling and given the way you frequently spin things I am starting to think it is purposeful.

i never mentioned the forsaken. i purposefully did not lean one way or the other interms of siding with you or everyone else on whether the tower is responsible for the BA because i couldn't give a flying f*ck what anyone thinks on the topic. to the rest of the world and tower, the BA are AS. even after they are caught, people think of them as darkfriend AS (some might also think the opposite, can't recall). if individuals doing evil acts do not represent the institution, then individuals doing good acts do not represent the institution, only individuals. on the contrary, if the good acts reflect positively on the institution then the bad acts reflect negatively. any philosophy101 or simple google search would tell you that.

 

call me a troll if you want to, but it does not change the fact that you are wrong in the way you are arguing and repeating it ad nauseum will not change it. i had to be condescending because i wanted it simple so you would understand it. obviously i had to spell it out more because you either still didn't understand or just decided to go "na na can't hear you. not listening." if you act like a child and i respond to you like you are a child, does that make me a troll? (decide for yourself if that was a real question or a philosophical one)

What Suttree is arguing is that the BA are not AS. By swearing to the Shadow, they cease to be AS from that day forth (if you swore before becoming AS, you were never AS to begin with). The WT is not to blame for the actions of non-AS, even if they appear to be AS, and even if those actions are good or bad. The argument you put forth is thus flawed. The actions of individuals who do not belong to the institution do not reflect on the institution. Granted, BA might appear to be AS. By the same token, any woman could put on a shawl and a ring and call herself AS. The WT could not claim credit for any good she did, nor accept blame for any bad she did.

Here's the big sticking point - they are accountable for their actions. They do nothing to root out or discover BA within their ranks even though they've suspected them being there. They've trained darkfriends to become Aes Sedai. They allow these women to use the power and clout of the tower. The point about them taking other oaths only proves that they are DFs, it doesn't stop them from being in every other way AS. They where the ring, they use the power of the Tower for their own needs, the more powerful of them order around the less powerful AS, Alviarin is the Keeper and she's a DF. The head of the Red Ajah is a BA. How are they not AS? In all ways they are to the entire world, including other AS the interact with. Any other woman who put on the stole would just be out and out lying. They were never trained by the AS, the AS would never back them up.

US soldiers take an oath to uphold the Constitution against enemies, foreign or domestic. If they, themselves, become the enemy, they must first be tried and then get a DD before they're no longer considered soldiers. IF an AS commits a crime that the Tower would still them for, they are AS until tried and stilled.

To the entire world they are AS. And, as I've already said, the Tower has done nothing to stop them even though they've suspected for years and years. They are completely the responsibility of the Tower. The AS cannot, or should not, go around telling others how to run their lives or kingdoms if they cannot control the women in their ranks. Not only cannot, do not even try.

If one commits a crime, one is a criminal from the time the crime is committed, not from the time one is convicted. Even if one is never convicted, never even suspected, one is still a criminal. When an AS is stripped of stole and staff, that is when she is formally acknowledged as no longer being part of the order. It doesn't mean that she did not forfeit the right to call herself AS before then, even if she did so unbeknownst to the AS order. When the church excommunicates someone, the excommunication is caused by the action, whether or not the church issues a formal acknowledgement of one being excommunicated. By joining the Shadow, they have forfeited the right to be called AS. They have, in effect, resigned as AS, even though they haven't announced it. As Egwene said, a vote from a BA sitter is not valid.

 

What Suttree is arguing is that the BA are not AS. By swearing to the Shadow, they cease to be AS from that day forth (if you swore before becoming AS, you were never AS to begin with). The WT is not to blame for the actions of non-AS, even if they appear to be AS, and even if those actions are good or bad. The argument you put forth is thus flawed. The actions of individuals who do not belong to the institution do not reflect on the institution. Granted, BA might appear to be AS. By the same token, any woman could put on a shawl and a ring and call herself AS. The WT could not claim credit for any good she did, nor accept blame for any bad she did.

 

And short is claiming that argument is flawed. If they train these women, equip these women, and refuse to monitor these women, who is to blame? I believe the original point was, the WT should be held responsible for the flawed practices that allowed the BA to grow and flourish. Now we're arguing that is an AS does something negative, suddenly they're no longer AS. Or if an AS joins the group, and gets all the benefits, while being a double agent, that they're suddenly not held accountable?

What shortkut put forward was the notion that Suttree was claiming the AS got credit for the good the WT did, but not the bad. I was disagreeing with that notion - the good and bad done by the WT as an organisation are both the responsibility of the WT as an organisation. BA are not a part of that organisation, therefore the WT gets no credit for their good nor blame for their bad - they might have responsibility, but not blame. Yes, there are deficiencies in the WT's policing of those that call themselves AS. Elaida is not Black. The WT could claim credit for the good she did, but must also accept blame for the bad she did. Alviarin is Black. The WT can claim no credit for any good she might have done in her time, but nor are they to blame for the bad she did, except insofar as she was acting under the orders of the WT. Suttree is not trying to claim the AS only get credit for the good stuff, which is what shortkut tried to present his position as. He is claiming that they do not get the blame for BA - they can still take the blame for bad choices made by the WT itself. That is a rather more reasonable position. Evil done by the WT belongs to the WT, evil done by the BA belongs to the BA. The WT, as a failed institution, might not have done enough to police their own organisation, and in doing so allowed to BA to take root there. They are not to blame for the BA's actions, they are responsible for trying to root them out.

 

Let's try this. I think this was what short was getting at. When are the WT responsible for the actions of it's members? Only when something positive is done? Only when the members are still in the tower? When are they absolved of that responsibility? Once the BA comes out and says, HEY, i'M BA? By your statement above, any action Liadrian did, even when the Tower didn't know she was a covert agent, is not the tower's responsibility.

The problem with what short was getting at it that it did not address the point made that BA are not a part of the organisation. They are not members of the WT. A better question would be when are they responsible for the actions of their former members, but that was not one shortkut asked.

Your argument is completely philosophical and not realistic. A criminal is only a criminal because of laws to begin with. Laws are manmade. Men have to enforce the laws. A cop who breaks the law in a manner where he can lose his badge is still a cop until tried and convicted. Same with the AS.

Until BA have been formally kicked out of the AS, they are AS.

 

Actually it is exactly the reality of the situation. They are a seperate insitution, they swear seperate oaths, they have a seperate mandate and they serve a seperate power. They have ceased to be AS at that point. You can not compare that to a single cop "gone bad". That simply is not realistic and this last string highlights how your point is sorely lacking. You have already given over on the WT being to blame for teh Forsaken's actions, you will come around on this as well.

 

There's the disconnect.

 

We're using responsible differently.

 

You're using it as Responsible for, or the mastermind behind.

I'm using it as Responsible for, will be held accountable for the actions of.

 

As in, the DO caused the mess, but the WT has to clean up the mess.

 

I'm not saying that the WT is the mastermind behind the BA (I don't think anyone is saying that) what I (and others) am saying is the WT has a responsibility to police it's persons, and when someone whom they have empowered goes off, they are responsible for stopping them.

 

Do you agree with the above?

 

The problem here is the BA is not some splinter group formed by rogue or malcontented WT members. It was specifcally created by Ishy as a seperate institution and the WT was targeted as part of a plot by the DO. The whole seperate organization has nothing to do with the WT's goals or actions. They are not by any means resposnsible for the training as they have no idea at the time who is who. You can't have a guilty until proven innocent environment. I do agree that they could have done more and that their culture allowed it to take hold. They are responsible for rooting it out, they most certainly are not to blame for the actions of BA members.

[thisguy]

Wondering what you would consider petty? The AS's main task has been holding the shadow at bay for 3,000 years. They saved the world in the Trolloc Wars and it is because of AS that the Dragon was even born. Yes the institution has failed in method but you can't doubt their goals.

 

The problem here is the BA is not some splinter group formed by rogue or malcontented WT members. It was specifcally created by Ishy as a seperate institution and the WT was targeted as part of a plot by the DO. The whole seperate organization has nothing to do with the WT's goals or actions. They are not by any means resposnsible for the training as they have no idea at the time who is who. You can't have a guilty until proven innocent environment. I do agree that they could have done more and that their culture allowed it to take hold. They are responsible for rooting it out, they most certainly are not to blame for the actions of BA members.

 

Here's the big sticking point - they are accountable for their actions. They do nothing to root out or discover BA within their ranks even though they've suspected them being there. They've trained darkfriends to become Aes Sedai

 

How does what I say in bold here differ from what you said up top in bold?

 

They have trained DF to become AS, we see that with Liandrin. Many AS may not even start of as BA, for all we know. So, they have trained them. As Egwene uses the oath rod to root them out later, we know the AS could have done something about them 20 years or more ago when they suspected there were BA. As they have done nothing for decades, they are responsible.

 

Edit to add: The guilty to proven innocent argument you made above doesn't work. The Tower makes AS swear three oaths, they could have made them swear a fourth oath, no problem.

 

I apologize for saying "Sorry. You're wrong." but to me, that is no different than you saying "I can't even believe we're having this conversation."

[Vardar]

Actually it is exactly the reality of the situation. They are a seperate insitution, they swear seperate oaths, they have a seperate mandate and they serve a seperate power. You can not compare that to a single cop "gone bad". That simply is not realistic and this last string highlights how your point is sorely lacking.

 

Actually at some point they have to swear the same oaths as the WT.

 

The problem here is the BA is not some splinter group formed by rogue or malcontented WT members. It was specifcally created by Ishy as a seperate institution and the WT was targeted as part of a plot by the DO. The whole seperate organization has nothing to do with the WT's goals or actions. They are not by any means resposnsible for the training as they have no idea at the time who is who. You can't have a guilty until proven innocent environment. I do agree that they could have done more and that their culture allowed it to take hold. They are responsible for rooting it out, they most certainly are not to blame for the actions of BA members.

 

But a splinter group is exactly what they are. Did isshy compel the first BA member? Do they compel new members when they seek them out? No,they find trustworthy AS that they think will go to the dark side, and they steal them (for lack of a better phrase). They are still responsible for their training, because they have the means to seek out those who aren't true to their oaths.

 

And you skipped around the last part: I'm not saying that the WT is the mastermind behind the BA (I don't think anyone is saying that) what I (and others) am saying is the WT has a responsibility to police it's persons, and when someone whom they have empowered goes off, they are responsible for stopping them

 

So who's responsibility is it to stop the BA now?

[thisguy]

Yes, a cop swears to uphold the law, serve and protect. I am sure there are cops who go corrupt while officers and I'm sure there are those who join looking to flaunt the law. It's exactly the same situation as we have with the BA.

[Glyphwright]

There's a bit of a difference between a cop who simply abuses the law, and a cop who is secretly a member of the mafia and in actuality does whatever the godfather tells him to.

[Suttree]

Actually it is exactly the reality of the situation. They are a seperate insitution, they swear seperate oaths, they have a seperate mandate and they serve a seperate power. You can not compare that to a single cop "gone bad". That simply is not realistic and this last string highlights how your point is sorely lacking.

 

Actually at some point they have to swear the same oaths as the WT.

 

Which they then forswear when they go over to the DO. The oaths are replaced by the new ones to their new organization. That further highlights my point.

 

But a splinter group is exactly what they are. Did isshy compel the first BA member? Do they compel new members when they seek them out? No,they find trustworthy AS that they think will go to the dark side, and they steal them (for lack of a better phrase). They are still responsible for their training, because they have the means to seek out those who aren't true to their oaths.

 

And you skipped around the last part: I'm not saying that the WT is the mastermind behind the BA (I don't think anyone is saying that) what I (and others) am saying is the WT has a responsibility to police it's persons, and when someone whom they have empowered goes off, they are responsible for stopping them

 

So who's responsibility is it to stop the BA now?

 

I have said numerous places including including in my very last post that AS are responsible for rooting them out and we have seen various initiatives of them trying to do so over the years.

 

As for Ishy we have no idea how he started them but we do know he bragged about how he had kept them hidden and the AS had no idea(I realize they have known recently). They are a distinct and seperate organization with totally new oaths and a new mandate. That is indisputable. As for the Oath Rod you both keep mentioning it but has shown to not be fool proof. There have been numerous threads dedicated to how it could have been worked around so that doesn't really help your cause.

[thisguy]

Actually it is exactly the reality of the situation. They are a seperate insitution, they swear seperate oaths, they have a seperate mandate and they serve a seperate power. You can not compare that to a single cop "gone bad". That simply is not realistic and this last string highlights how your point is sorely lacking.

 

Actually at some point they have to swear the same oaths as the WT.

 

Which they then forswear when they go over to the DO. The oaths are replace by the new ones to their new organization. That further highlights my point.

 

But a splinter group is exactly what they are. Did isshy compel the first BA member? Do they compel new members when they seek them out? No,they find trustworthy AS that they think will go to the dark side, and they steal them (for lack of a better phrase). They are still responsible for their training, because they have the means to seek out those who aren't true to their oaths.

 

And you skipped around the last part: I'm not saying that the WT is the mastermind behind the BA (I don't think anyone is saying that) what I (and others) am saying is the WT has a responsibility to police it's persons, and when someone whom they have empowered goes off, they are responsible for stopping them

 

So who's responsibility is it to stop the BA now?

 

I have said numerous places including including in my very last post that AS are responsible for rooting them out and we have seen various initiatives of them trying to do so over the years.

 

As for Ishy we have no idea how he started them but we do know he bragged about how he had kept them hidden and the AS had no idea(I realize they have known recently). They are a distinct and seperate organization with totally new oaths and a new mandate. That is indisputable. As for the Oath Rod you both keep mentioning it has shown to not be fool proof. There have been numerous threads dedicated to how it could have been worked around so that doesn't really help your cause.

Yes, I said above that the oath rod has flaws but at least it would show they have taken some action. From an AS perspective, having an ajah full of DFs should be the most horrible thing imaginable. However, they never face the problem, until it's almost too late, and when they do it's not as a uniform body. They don't even attempt to come up with a way to stop members who are BA or to figure out which ones are BA. It is their responsibility. And, as I've mentioned, we have at least one member of the BA who is an example of a DF who becomes AS. So, they trained her to be Aes Sedai. A new 4th oath could have helped there.

[thisguy]

There's a bit of a difference between a cop who simply abuses the law, and a cop who is secretly a member of the mafia and in actuality does whatever the godfather tells him to.

 

I agree, but the cop is still a cop.

[Vardar]

I have said numerous places including including in my very last post that AS are responsible for rooting them out and we have seen various initiatives of them trying to do so over the years.

 

As for Ishy we have no idea how he started them but we do know he bragged about how he had kept them hidden and the AS had no idea(I realize they have known recently). They are a distinct and seperate organization with totally new oaths and a new mandate. That is indisputable. As for the Oath Rod you both keep mentioning it but has shown to not be fool proof. There have been numerous threads dedicated to how it could have been worked around so that doesn't really help your cause.

 

Actually most of the it's not foolproof came with discoveries Post Wonder-Girls, meaning Pre-them it nearly was.

 

Also, they could have check for standing weaves, waeves used to disguise voices, etc. Most of the ways to defeat the oath rod involved hidding weaves, which wasn't possible for how long? It's a damn valid help to our "cause."

 

Also, what varios initiaves over the years were aimed at the BA? The ones I can recall are all fairly recent, otherwise they refuse to admit they even exist.

[Vardar]

There's a bit of a difference between a cop who simply abuses the law, and a cop who is secretly a member of the mafia and in actuality does whatever the godfather tells him to.

 

True, but even that analogy is sketchy at best because that mobster wasn't empowered by the Cops. Generally speaking he had his skills prior to joining the cops to do bad. The BA was empowered, learned from the WT, then took those skills they learned and abused them. The only close analogy I can come up with is the military. And you can bet your bottom dollar if a Marine or something went rogue with military equipment and firepower the Government would be held responsible.

[thisguy]

Not to mention, if the Tower sends out an AS on a mission and that AS ends up being BA and they do "bad" things while on that mission, whose fault is it?

 

Example: Two countries (let's use Tear and Illian for sake of an example) are near to war. The Tower sends out a member of the GA who happens to be BA. She goes, exacerbates the problem and people then find out she's BA.

 

What's the Tower going to say when the Tairens and Illians blame the Tower. "Oh, we've been fairly sure there have been BA among us for decades, at least, but you know.... there not our problem since they've sworn other oaths. Don't blame us. We just sent them to you as if they were AS and funded them and told them all about your problems but you can't blame us"?

 

At best they'd be viewed as inept and untrustworthy.

[Suttree]

Also, what varios initiaves over the years were aimed at the BA? The ones I can recall are all fairly recent, otherwise they refuse to admit they even exist.

 

Cads

WH

She was sure they would keep that ridiculous oath, if not always in ways the boy would like, but there was always the possibility that one or two might be Black Ajah. Once she had thought herself on the point of rooting out the Black only to watch her quarry slip through her fingers like smoke, her bitterest failure except possibly for failing to learn what Caraline Damodred's cousin had been up to in the Borderlands until the knowledge was years too late to do any good.

 

Verin and the BA hunters is what I was referring to. Another was sure to start around the time Tamra was killed but then Moir and Siuan were forced underground when the DR hunters started being taken out.

 

What's the Tower going to say when the Tairens and Illians blame the Tower. "Oh, we've been fairly sure there have been BA among us for decades, at least, but you know.... there not our problem since they've sworn other oaths. Don't blame us. We just sent them to you as if they were AS and funded them and told them all about your problems but you can't blame us"?

 

They will say the truth. They have foresworn their oaths as AS and they serve the DO.

[thisguy]

Verin and Cads - did they do that at the behest of the Tower? I don't think so.