Seanchan and the AoL

[Morden]

Ive been re-reading the books again and finally on ToM, and ive been wondering about how the Seanchan can be stopped, and im not entirely sure if they can be without a significant turn of events.

 

Im beginning to think that the seanchan are destined to take over everywhere, whether they free the Damane is another matter, im kinda hoping they do stop treating them as slaves, and try to approach something similar to servants etc.

 

There seem to be remarkable similarities between the daishan aiel(sp) and da'covale(sp) and with tweaks in the right direction between damane and the original aes sedai who were meant to be servants (which they certainly are not anymore )

 

So who knows, maybe the seanchan could take over and pretty much rule the new forth age, get destroyed at the end of the forth, and then the Aes Sedai united rebuild during the new first age and bring in a new AoL?

 

 

Personally I am hoping the seanchan or destroyed as a culture, or atleast the slavery aspects of it. Mats Ter'angrael might be useful in that regard, as could the dragons and Asha'man. But I really think the Aes Sedai need to think about the use of the OP as a weapon... maybe add Sul'dam/Demane as legitimat targets along with shadowspawn?

 

but the real question is, is Aviendha's vision a foretelling or a possibility? if it can be stopped, then its going to take a union between AS/Ashaman as well as wise ones/ seafolk etc to take them down rather than all working for their own petty reasons.AS and wind finders are the worst for this. the Wise Ones at least work for the benefit of their people.

[Suttree]

...rather than all working for their own petty reasons. AS and wind finders are the worst for this. the Wise Ones at least work for the benefit of their people.

 

Wondering what you would consider petty? The AS's main task has been holding the shadow at bay for 3,000 years. They saved the world in the Trolloc Wars and it is because of AS that the Dragon was even born. Yes the institution has failed in method but you can't doubt their goals. It's been said before but AS are just like anyone else. There are great ones, terrible ones(we have seen the damage these indivudals can do) and average ones. The majority however are out in the world working for good while guarding the blight, healing people, averting wars, forging treaties, propping up thrones etc. They have a long way to go in teaming up with the Ashaman and getting back to their true purpose in society but people make it out like they only work towards petty goals is patently false.

[MountaineerWV]

I strongly think that use of the A'dam will end, or at least we will see the beginning of the end, before the end of the series. The Seanchan's power is based off of damanes. They will still be a powerhouse and male and female channellers will be present in the Seanchan Army, but free channellers will not be nearly as efficient as damane.

 

I imagine that the Seanchan empire will splinter or remain splintered due to the civil war. Damanes are the glue that hold the Empire together.

 

...rather than all working for their own petty reasons. AS and wind finders are the worst for this. the Wise Ones at least work for the benefit of their people.

 

Wondering what you would consider petty? The AS's main task has been holding the shadow at bay for 3,000 years. They saved the world in the Trolloc Wars and it is because of AS that the Dragon was even born. Yes the institution has failed in method but you can't doubt their goals. It's been said before but AS are just like anyone else. There are great ones, terrible ones(we have seen the damage these indivudals can do) and average ones. The majority however are out in the world working for good while guarding the blight, healing people, averting wars, forging treaties, propping up thrones etc. They have a long way to go in teaming up with the Ashaman and getting back to their true purpose in society but people make it out like they only work towards petty goals is patently false.

 

You think that the AS saved the world during the Trolloc Wars? Really?

 

No doubt they were important, but it was the Ten Nations and the soldiers on the ground that defeated the Trollocs. The White Tower and AS were useful tools, but they did not single handedly stop the Trolloc Wars. The only AS action we can 100% lay at their feet is the fall of Manetheren.

[Pinzarn]

and it is because of AS that the Dragon was even born.

 

Say what???

[thisguy]

Yeah, while I understand why you might think it's because of the AS that Rand was born, if the pattern wanted it it would have found another way if there was no foretelling - foretelling is obviously linked to the pattern.

[Vardar]

If the Seanchan did take over, there would be no AOL. At least not like the old one. The way they treat channelers means scienctific discovery would stagnate, as it takes a free hand at testing and learning, as well as circles (Which cannot be done with an adam) to achieve those wonders and discoveries.

[Suttree]

You think that the AS saved the world during the Trolloc Wars? Really?

 

No doubt they were important, but it was the Ten Nations and the soldiers on the ground that defeated the Trollocs. The White Tower and AS were useful tools, but they did not single handedly stop the Trolloc Wars. The only AS action we can 100% lay at their feet is the fall of Manetheren.

 

It's not me thinking, it's what happened. Without Rashima Kerenmosa and the other AS the world would have been doomed. First off Mabriam En Shareed was responsible for the Ten Nations forming. Many of the other Queens at the time were also AS and they all played a significant role. When the pact started faltering Rashima restored morale with a string of diplomatic and military overtures leading to a string of deisive battles culminating in the final blow to the shadow that was the Battle of Maighande. She not only was a brilliant General but lead from the front in battles and was the deciding factor in that battle. No without the AS the world does not win the Trolloc Wars and we would have no story now.

 

As for Manetheren 100% of the blame does not go to AS, it goes to Tetsuan who acted alone out of jealousy in diverting aid. When her actions were discovered she was stripped of "staff & stole" and stilled.

 

and it is because of AS that the Dragon was even born.

 

Say what???

 

No Gitara fortelling sending Tigraine to the waste no Rand. I'll listen to the argument that the pattern would have made it happen a different way but these threads are set up far, far in advance. It's not as if one thing goes wrong and another solution instantly pops up. That isn't how it works.

[Pinzarn]

No Gitara fortelling sending Tigraine to the waste no Rand. I'll listen to the argument that the pattern would have made it happen a different way but these threads are set up far, far in advance. It's not as if one thing goes wrong and another solution instantly pops up. That isn't how it works.

 

Ok, I follow you now. I'll disagree that is it because of the Aes Sedai (as an organization), but instead because of a person that happens to also be an Aes Sedai, but that is splitting hairs for the discussion.

[thisguy]

You think that the AS saved the world during the Trolloc Wars? Really?

 

No doubt they were important, but it was the Ten Nations and the soldiers on the ground that defeated the Trollocs. The White Tower and AS were useful tools, but they did not single handedly stop the Trolloc Wars. The only AS action we can 100% lay at their feet is the fall of Manetheren.

 

It's not me thinking, it's what happened. Without Rashima Kerenmosa and the other AS the world would have been doomed. First off Mabriam En Shareed was responsible for the Ten Nations forming. Many of the other Queens at the time were also AS and they all played a significant role. When the pact started faltering Rashima restored morale with a string of diplomatic and military overtures leading to a string of deisive battles culminating in the final blow to the shadow that was the Battle of Maighande. She not only was a brilliant General but lead from the front in battles and was the deciding factor in that battle. No without the AS the world does not win the Trolloc Wars and we would have no story now.

 

As for Manetheren 100% of the blame does not go to AS, it goes to Tetsuan who acted alone out of jealousy in diverting aid. When her actions were discovered she was stripped of "staff & stole" and stilled.

 

and it is because of AS that the Dragon was even born.

 

Say what???

 

No Gitara fortelling sending Tigraine to the waste no Rand. I'll listen to the argument that the pattern would have made it happen a different way but these threads are set up far, far in advance. It's not as if one thing goes wrong and another solution instantly pops up. That isn't how it works.

 

You sure about that? Moiraine's note to Rand talks about three different possible outcomes from the battle with Lanfear by the docks.

[Morden]

...rather than all working for their own petty reasons. AS and wind finders are the worst for this. the Wise Ones at least work for the benefit of their people.

 

Wondering what you would consider petty? The AS's main task has been holding the shadow at bay for 3,000 years. They saved the world in the Trolloc Wars and it is because of AS that the Dragon was even born. Yes the institution has failed in method but you can't doubt their goals. It's been said before but AS are just like anyone else. There are great ones, terrible ones(we have seen the damage these indivudals can do) and average ones. The majority however are out in the world working for good while guarding the blight, healing people, averting wars, forging treaties, propping up thrones etc. They have a long way to go in teaming up with the Ashaman and getting back to their true purpose in society but people make it out like they only work towards petty goals is patently false.

 

Very few of the Aes Sedai work together well enough to be anything other than petty, just because they get the job done in a round about fashion does not make there actions any different. There are usually some amazing individuals who make up for this, but that does not change the petty squabbling and manoeuvring that goes on, even the Aes Sedai themselves comment on this in the books (the later ones mainly)

 

Think of it this way. How many of them had fought against trollocs in the Blight? how many had stopped wars from occuring and resolving others? and how many of them expected respect and reverence just because they wore the shawl and could channel the one power?

 

Respect has to be earnt, yet so many try to demand it because of the actions of others in their order. The institution as a whole is flawed almost beyond redemption because of their manoeuvrings for power and control. Look at tGS and see how the Ajah Leaders tried to puppet both sides so that they could take direct control.

 

There is a theme throughout the whole series. The greatest Aes Sedai, are those that do not try to conform, who remain themselves without trying to be what others think they should be, but what they think they should be.

 

That to me is what makes them petty. Which is why they were all so shocked about the Kin, the wise ones, the windfinders. They were so self confident and so assured of their own greatness that they didnt see anyone else as worthy of any sort of attention. So they didnt even bother to look. Because the only place the vast majority of them look, is towards something that gains them something. or brings more prestige and power to the tower.

 

We're never gonna agree on this I understand that, but the way I see it is that most of them put the White Tower above all else, If the greater good required the destruction of Tar Valon, I think you would truly see which of them were worthy of the respect so many of them demand.

[Morden]

I strongly think that use of the A'dam will end, or at least we will see the beginning of the end, before the end of the series. The Seanchan's power is based off of damanes. They will still be a powerhouse and male and female channellers will be present in the Seanchan Army, but free channellers will not be nearly as efficient as damane.

 

I imagine that the Seanchan empire will splinter or remain splintered due to the civil war. Damanes are the glue that hold the Empire together.

 

I agree that it will end, just a matter of time, but even if it lasted the whole of the fourth age. when it ended it would be world shattering enough to usher in a new age where channeling wouldnt be something so wrong, where they might become servents of the greater good rather than slaves

[thisguy]

...rather than all working for their own petty reasons. AS and wind finders are the worst for this. the Wise Ones at least work for the benefit of their people.

 

Wondering what you would consider petty? The AS's main task has been holding the shadow at bay for 3,000 years. They saved the world in the Trolloc Wars and it is because of AS that the Dragon was even born. Yes the institution has failed in method but you can't doubt their goals. It's been said before but AS are just like anyone else. There are great ones, terrible ones(we have seen the damage these indivudals can do) and average ones. The majority however are out in the world working for good while guarding the blight, healing people, averting wars, forging treaties, propping up thrones etc. They have a long way to go in teaming up with the Ashaman and getting back to their true purpose in society but people make it out like they only work towards petty goals is patently false.

 

Very few of the Aes Sedai work together well enough to be anything other than petty, just because they get the job done in a round about fashion does not make there actions any different. There are usually some amazing individuals who make up for this, but that does not change the petty squabbling and manoeuvring that goes on, even the Aes Sedai themselves comment on this in the books (the later ones mainly)

 

Think of it this way. How many of them had fought against trollocs in the Blight? how many had stopped wars from occuring and resolving others? and how many of them expected respect and reverence just because they wore the shawl and could channel the one power?

 

Respect has to be earnt, yet so many try to demand it because of the actions of others in their order. The institution as a whole is flawed almost beyond redemption because of their manoeuvrings for power and control. Look at tGS and see how the Ajah Leaders tried to puppet both sides so that they could take direct control.

 

There is a theme throughout the whole series. The greatest Aes Sedai, are those that do not try to conform, who remain themselves without trying to be what others think they should be, but what they think they should be.

 

That to me is what makes them petty. Which is why they were all so shocked about the Kin, the wise ones, the windfinders. They were so self confident and so assured of their own greatness that they didnt see anyone else as worthy of any sort of attention. So they didnt even bother to look. Because the only place the vast majority of them look, is towards something that gains them something. or brings more prestige and power to the tower.

 

We're never gonna agree on this I understand that, but the way I see it is that most of them put the White Tower above all else, If the greater good required the destruction of Tar Valon, I think you would truly see which of them were worthy of the respect so many of them demand.

 

I agree. Even Moiraine tells Rand to watch all the AS in the note she gives him pre-Lanfear fight. They have black ajah for crying out loud. Some are good, some evil and some are just haughty arrogant scheming women. Like Elaida, for instance. She's pure ego.

[Suttree]

Think of it this way. How many of them had fought against trollocs in the Blight? how many had stopped wars from occuring and resolving others? and how many of them expected respect and reverence just because they wore the shawl and could channel the one power?

 

Errmm the majority. At any given time more than 1/3 are out working for good in the world(and they constantly cyle in and out). Per BS Greens are up guarding and patrolling the blight and we hear throughout the text examples of sisters who have resolved disputes and stopped wars. Ever single sisters room we see has momentos from a long life lived outside the WT working for the greater good. Here is just one of the examples...

 

TGS

Maps hung within delicate frames, centered on the walls like prized pieces of art. A pair of Aiel spears hung on either side of one map; another was a map of the Sea Folk islands. While many might have opted for the porcelain keepsakes that were so commonly associated with the Sea Folk, Meidani had a small collection of earrings and painted shells, carefully framed and displayed, along with a small plaque beneath listing dates of collection.

 

The sitting room was like a museum dedicated to one person's journeys. An Altaran marriage knife, set with four twinkling rubies, hung beside a small Cairhienin banner and a Shienar sword. Each had a small plaque explaining its significance. The marriage knife, for instance, had been presented to Meidani for her help in settling a dispute between two houses over the death of a particularly important landowner. His wife had given her the knife as a token of thanks.

 

Who would have thought that the cowering woman of the dinner a few weeks back would have such a proud collection? The rug itself was labeled, the gift of a trader who had purchased it on the closed docks of Shara, then bestowed it on Meidani in thanks for Healing his daughter. It was of strange design, woven from what seemed to be tiny, dyed reeds, with tufts of an exotic gray fur trimming the edges. The pattern depicted exotic creatures with long necks.

 

Meidani herself sat on a curious chair made from woven wicker boughs, crafted to look like a growing thicket of branches that just happened to take the shape of a chair. It would have been horribly out of place in any other room in the Tower, but it fit within these quarters, where each item was different, none of them related yet somehow all connected with the common theme of gifts received during travels.

 

Don't be fooled that just because RJ hasn't placed these things central in the main storyline it means they aren't happening. A careful reading finds references to their actions sprinkled throughout and more often than not we see AS working together in groups not seperately.

 

As for the later books people need to keep in mind that the state of the WT pre TGS is not normal. It was a forsaken influenced, BA riddled(sowing chaos with conflicting orders through Elaida), Fain touched, split WT. Heck due to Fain's influence and the conflicting orders from Alviarin each Ajah was basically an armed encampment and sisters were being assaulted for wandering in the wrong areas!!! That can not be considered the norm when judging them. Once again you will find no argument from me that their culture has failed but you can not question their intentions. They have always worked for what they believe is best for the world, not personnel power. No whether they are best suited to do so now, or correct in their assessment is another argument entirely.

 

As for Moiraine her actions with Rand were forced underground by a BA killing spree after Gitara had her fortelling. She doesn't know who is who so she warns Rand about everyone. It is ludicrous however to lay Ishy and the BA's actions at the feet of all AS.

[Vardar]

Think of it this way. How many of them had fought against trollocs in the Blight? how many had stopped wars from occuring and resolving others? and how many of them expected respect and reverence just because they wore the shawl and could channel the one power?

 

Errmm the vast majority. At any given time more than 1/3 are out working for good in the world(and they constantly cyle in and out). Per BS Greens are up guarding and patrolling the blight and we hear throughout the text examples of sisters who have resolved disputes and stopped wars. Ever single sisters room we see has momentos from a long life lived outside the WT working for the greater good. Don't be fooled that just because RJ hasn't placed these things central in the main storyline it means they aren't happening. A careful reading finds references to their actions sprinkled throughout and more often than not we see AS working together in groups not seperately. People need to keep in mind that the state of the WT pre TGS is not normal. It was a frorsaken influenced, BA riddled(sowing chaos with conflicting orders through Elaida), Fain touched, split WT. That can not be considered the norm when judging them. Once again you will find no argument from me that their culture has failed but you can not question their intentions. They have always worked for what they believe is best for the world, not personnel power. No whether they are best suited to do so now, or correct in their assessment is another argument entirely.

 

As for Moiraine her actions with Rand were forced underground by a BA killing spree after Gitara had her fortelling. She doesn't know who is who so she warns Rand about everyone. It is ludicrous however to lay Ishy and the BA's actions at the feet of all AS.

 

You can;t lay blame for their actions, not directly, but you can blame the existence of the BA on the AS as a whole. What kinda orginization refuses to believe it can be corrupted, and refuses to try to even find corruption? I mean how long did it take them to figure out the Oath Rod trick once they actually thought about it? Hours? They refused to believe something existed, told the world it can't exist and by proxy, are responsible for the BA, since they refused to cut the cancer out, as it were.

[Suttree]

You can;t lay blame for their actions, not directly, but you can blame the existence of the BA on the AS as a whole. What kinda orginization refuses to believe it can be corrupted, and refuses to try to even find corruption? I mean how long did it take them to figure out the Oath Rod trick once they actually thought about it? Hours? They refused to believe something existed, told the world it can't exist and by proxy, are responsible for the BA, since they refused to cut the cancer out, as it were.

 

Ishy created the BA and targeted the WT because it holds the greatest power in the land. He brags about having Sisters dancing to his strings going back quite a while. We also saw how quickly a Forsaken was able to get around the oath rod so no that doesn't help your point. W/O notes from Verin and Egwene's actions it would have been very difficult to roust them. You can not claim they are responsible for the BA anymore than any nation is for the DF's that inhabit it. It is patently false to say the existence of the BA is their fault for all that a culture that refuses to discuss certain thinsg is inherently flawed.

[thisguy]

You can;t lay blame for their actions, not directly, but you can blame the existence of the BA on the AS as a whole. What kinda orginization refuses to believe it can be corrupted, and refuses to try to even find corruption? I mean how long did it take them to figure out the Oath Rod trick once they actually thought about it? Hours? They refused to believe something existed, told the world it can't exist and by proxy, are responsible for the BA, since they refused to cut the cancer out, as it were.

 

Ishy created the BA and targeted the WT because it holds the greatest power in the land. He brags about having Sisters dancing to his strings going back quite a while. We also saw how quickly a Forsaken was able to get around the oath rod so no that doesn't help your point. W/O notes from Verin and Egwene's actions it would have been very difficult to roust them. You can not claim they are responsible for the BA anymore than any nation is for the DF's that inhabit it. It is patently false to say the existence of the BA is their fault for all that a culture that refuses to discuss certain thinsg is inherently flawed.

The ones who aren't DFs argue amongst themselves and scheme and plot. If they didn't have power (magic) what would make them any different than anybody else? Nothing. Some of them are most certainly pledged their exsitence to fighting evil. so have most of the borderlanders.

[Suttree]

You can;t lay blame for their actions, not directly, but you can blame the existence of the BA on the AS as a whole. What kinda orginization refuses to believe it can be corrupted, and refuses to try to even find corruption? I mean how long did it take them to figure out the Oath Rod trick once they actually thought about it? Hours? They refused to believe something existed, told the world it can't exist and by proxy, are responsible for the BA, since they refused to cut the cancer out, as it were.

 

Ishy created the BA and targeted the WT because it holds the greatest power in the land. He brags about having Sisters dancing to his strings going back quite a while. We also saw how quickly a Forsaken was able to get around the oath rod so no that doesn't help your point. W/O notes from Verin and Egwene's actions it would have been very difficult to roust them. You can not claim they are responsible for the BA anymore than any nation is for the DF's that inhabit it. It is patently false to say the existence of the BA is their fault for all that a culture that refuses to discuss certain thinsg is inherently flawed.

The ones who aren't DFs argue amongst themselves and scheme and plot. If they didn't have power (magic) what would make them any different than anybody else? Nothing. Some of them are most certainly pledged their exsitence to fighting evil. so have most of the borderlanders.

 

They have all pledged themselves to fighting evil. That is the central goal the WT has had in holding the shadow at bay for 3,000 years. Not sure how you would think any central power such as the WT wouldn't have factions at odds here an there working for what they think best? I mean we know that even happened in the AoL.

 

As for what makes them different it is there service to the world. Borderlanders cover off on one part of it in guarding the blight so ok, they have the Greens covered off on. Do borderlanders use their eyes and ears to search out and heal outbreaks of disease and the like? Do they break up bands of DF's terrorizing villages? Do they on a world wide basis forge treaties, avert wars, settle disputes, prop up thrones, seek out and preserve lost knowledge?

 

Look here is the point. The WT obviously does not go about everything in an ideal manner. But to take the examples of a small section of the WT which we see at it's lowest moment in history and try to turn that into all AS does is scheme for power and fight over petty things is absolutely absurd. It ignores both what is in the text and auhtor quotes. We know for fact that while there are both legendary AS(Cads, Moir, Gitara Rashima etc) and terrible ones(Tetsuan, Elaida), the vast majority are just your average every day sister out in the world working for good. It is just the reality of it all. It honestly is too bad so much hyperbole and vitriol get's thrown their way as it distracts from a realistic debate of how they could better serve the world.

[thisguy]

You can;t lay blame for their actions, not directly, but you can blame the existence of the BA on the AS as a whole. What kinda orginization refuses to believe it can be corrupted, and refuses to try to even find corruption? I mean how long did it take them to figure out the Oath Rod trick once they actually thought about it? Hours? They refused to believe something existed, told the world it can't exist and by proxy, are responsible for the BA, since they refused to cut the cancer out, as it were.

 

Ishy created the BA and targeted the WT because it holds the greatest power in the land. He brags about having Sisters dancing to his strings going back quite a while. We also saw how quickly a Forsaken was able to get around the oath rod so no that doesn't help your point. W/O notes from Verin and Egwene's actions it would have been very difficult to roust them. You can not claim they are responsible for the BA anymore than any nation is for the DF's that inhabit it. It is patently false to say the existence of the BA is their fault for all that a culture that refuses to discuss certain thinsg is inherently flawed.

The ones who aren't DFs argue amongst themselves and scheme and plot. If they didn't have power (magic) what would make them any different than anybody else? Nothing. Some of them are most certainly pledged their exsitence to fighting evil. so have most of the borderlanders.

 

They have all pledged themselves to fighting evil. That is the central goal the WT has had in holding the shadow at bay for 3,000 years. Not sure how you would think any central power such as the WT wouldn't have factions at odds here an there working for what they think best? I mean we know that even happened in the AoL.

 

As for what makes them different it is there service to the world. Borderlanders cover off on one part of it in guarding the blight so ok, they have the Greens covered off on. Do borderlanders use their eyes and ears to search out and heal outbreaks of disease and the like? Do they break up bands of DF's terrorizing villages? Do they on a world wide basis forge treaties, avert wars, settle disputes, prop up thrones, seek out and preserve lost knowledge?

 

Look here is the point. The WT obviously does not go about everything in an ideal manner. But to take the examples of a small section of the WT which we see at it's lowest moment in history and try to turn that into all AS does is scheme for power and fight over petty things is absolutely absurd. It ignores both what is in the text and auhtor quotes. We know for fact that while there are both legendary AS(Cads, Moir, Gitara Rashima etc) and terrible ones(Tetsuan, Elaida), the vast majority are just your average every day sister out in the world working for good. It is just the reality of it all. It honestly is too bad so much hyperbole and vitriol get's thrown their way as it distracts from a realistic debate of how they could better serve the world.

 

I get your point. And, perhaps, I should be more precise in what I say. At THIS time (in the history of RJ's world), the story doesn't do much to make me think the Tower, not individual AS are so wonderful. I can find just as many negatives with them as positives. And, there are enough of them who are main side characters who seem to think that the main characters should be wary of other Aes Sedai for me not to think all that much of the order. Their power doesn't seem to come with wisdom or "goodness" necessarily.

 

A realistic debate about how they can better serve the world would have to begin with them trying not to control everyone they come into contact with. We've seen, all to often, that they don't make their moves with any sort of cohesiveness. So, while you can argue that they serve the world to make it better, I'd say that's just a catch all that doesn't seem to pan out. And, I'd guess the average sister is no different than most of the above/below average ones that we meet in the story.

 

The Forsaken are Aes Sedai from a time when they were at their peak. The most powerful AS we know of and many turned to the DO. It seems to me they do as much good as they do bad. Yes, they've fought trollocs and fades at the borderlands but who created these creatures? Aes Sedai.

[Suttree]

The Forsaken are Aes Sedai from a time when they were at their peak. The most powerful AS we know of and many turned to the DO. It seems to me they do as much good as they do bad. Yes, they've fought trollocs and fades at the borderlands but who created these creatures? Aes Sedai.

 

See this is dangerously close to condemning all power users based on the mere potential to do harm. I mean come on, Aginor creating shadowspawn is the AS's fault?

 

AS on the whole have done far more good than harm in saving the world during the Breaking, Trolloc Wars, etc. The facts of the story show this to be true just as it shows a 1/3 of the WT out working for good in the world at any given time.

 

In regards to the Forsaken not they don't count as AS just as BA do not once they have pledged their service to the Shadow. Finally you can not pull out individual sisters doing good and say they are not indicative of the WT. You have to take the good with the bad. For every Tetsuan there has been numerous sisters who have made a huge difference working for the light.

[Morden]

They are not pledged against fighting evil, that is more of a accepted fact rather than a truth. Merely because one of the three oaths state that they cannot use the OP as a weapon except against shadowspawn or to defend themselves.

 

Many of them do fight the shadow. But I would be amazed if more than 1/3 of them have even seen shadowspawn let alone killed some. The Reds were the largest Ajah afterall, and they were more interested in Gentling men, the vaste majority of them disliked all men, so what makes you think they would fight on the borderlands alongside men?

 

Im more inclined to think that the vaste majority of Greens would have gone to the blight at some point, same for blues, and maybe quite a lot of browns (the ones that arent up to their elbows in librarys) but the Reds in the book seem to have such negative views on males that the chances of them caring about the blight border is slim. Whites wouldnt see the logic in it, they would. Yellows might go there to heal people but not to fight.

 

You say that they fight the shadow. Myself I think most of them ignore it if they can, which is why they ignored the Black Ajah, because it would have caused them a lot of upheaval, and required them to dig deep at what they perceive the world is and should be.

 

Just read the part where after Egwene tricks the Sitters into giving her sole power towards talking to the Monarchs. This is after the Tower was almost destroyed, after Elaida, the mass execution of the Black Ajah, after they know the last battle is coming. Yet they still try to plot, sneak and manoeuvre for their own gain. And you think they are not petty? when the women they make their leaders do stuff like that?

 

I think that the good ones are the ones that avoid the tower to actually do some good in the world rather than deal with the inter-tower politics.

 

I just dont see them working for the worlds good. I see them working for what they think is best. Whether for them or everyone else. But the very fact that they place the WT and peoples views on the WT as more important than almost anything means that they cannot and will not work for the greater good.

 

The whole theme of the books seems to be that women know best. regardless of whether a man has a good solid plan, or is more knowledgeable, they are always seen as inferior. The Aes Sedai are the worst for this, followed closely by the Wise Ones, but at least they have roots to the world rather than sitting in an Ivory Tower expecting to be worshipped for wearing a ring and swearing oaths which they bend within an inch of its life.

 

I dislike the Aes Sedai as an institution and as a building. Without the White Tower they might be a little more humble and grounded, which they need. But the members who actually act how Aes Sedai should do, the ones who act for the greater good? they are excellent. Its the Wind Finders who are truly loathsome women, but thats just my opinion.

[holiday]

Ishy created the BA and targeted the WT because it holds the greatest power in the land. He brags about having Sisters dancing to his strings going back quite a while. We also saw how quickly a Forsaken was able to get around the oath rod so no that doesn't help your point. W/O notes from Verin and Egwene's actions it would have been very difficult to roust them. You can not claim they are responsible for the BA anymore than any nation is for the DF's that inhabit it. It is patently false to say the existence of the BA is their fault for all that a culture that refuses to discuss certain thinsg is inherently flawed.

Althought the creation and continued existence of the Black Ajah is not the fault of the White Tower, the nigh-on 2000 year refusal to acknowledge its existence is a major, major failure. To continue your comparison, the White Tower's ignorance and denial of the Black Ajah is the equivalent of a monarch claiming that his nation is completely free of darkfriends. It takes the Tower a couple millenia to actually move against the Black, which in my mind is the one large blotch on their pretty excellent record of fighting against the Shadow.

 

The main consideration that leads me to qualify the Aes Sedai understanding of themselves as the lone protectors of the world is this: in the 3000 years since the Breaking, how often have they foiled Ishamael's plans? If one wants to argue that they stumped him by winning the Trolloc Wars, I will concede that (even though he did quite enough damage to be going on with), but what about the Seanchan, Hawkwing's death, and the Black Ajah? The Tower's so-called 'failure' in this aspect is alot like the failure Rand was facing. He was doing well enough at killing Forsaken and getting the world ready for the Last Battle, but at the cost of completely neglecting his own person, physically, mentally, and emotionally. Similarly, the Tower has been so focused on keeping the world from chaos and keeping back the Shadow, that it neglected to care for itself in a number of ways, the most important being the failure to detect the Black Ajah, the decrease in the number of sisters and their strength in the Power, and the failure to reform an unproductive and inhibiting heirarchy. The parallels between Rand as a person and the Tower as an instituition really come to a head in TGS, as that book closes with both having finally begun to overcome their internal problems.

 

If the Tower claims the status of the key force of the Light and the central defense against the Shadow (and I think that claim is strong, if you set the Dragon aside as unique), then it has to bear a significant amount of blame for failing to deal with the Forsaken, who are the Shadow's chief agents. The didn't detect Ishamael for 2000 years, they didn't detect Mesaana until it was almost too late, and these are just the matters internal to the Tower. Rahvin, Sammael, and Be'lal all assumed prominent seats of power without the Tower even noticing. Furthermore, I don't think these failures can be simply explained by the Tower's degradaded state, as it failed to deal with or even discover Ishamael's influence at the height of its power.

[MountaineerWV]

You think that the AS saved the world during the Trolloc Wars? Really?

 

No doubt they were important, but it was the Ten Nations and the soldiers on the ground that defeated the Trollocs. The White Tower and AS were useful tools, but they did not single handedly stop the Trolloc Wars. The only AS action we can 100% lay at their feet is the fall of Manetheren.

 

It's not me thinking, it's what happened. Without Rashima Kerenmosa and the other AS the world would have been doomed. First off Mabriam En Shareed was responsible for the Ten Nations forming. Many of the other Queens at the time were also AS and they all played a significant role. When the pact started faltering Rashima restored morale with a string of diplomatic and military overtures leading to a string of deisive battles culminating in the final blow to the shadow that was the Battle of Maighande. She not only was a brilliant General but lead from the front in battles and was the deciding factor in that battle. No without the AS the world does not win the Trolloc Wars and we would have no story now.

 

As for Manetheren 100% of the blame does not go to AS, it goes to Tetsuan who acted alone out of jealousy in diverting aid. When her actions were discovered she was stripped of "staff & stole" and stilled.

 

So when it serves the light it is a direct result of the greatness of AS, but when it is petty or evil it is solely that AS working alone and not due to the corruptness of the White Tower?

 

I know that the Queen of Manetheren was an AS, but I don't recall any other of the Ten Nation's leaders as AS.

 

Think of it this way. How many of them had fought against trollocs in the Blight? how many had stopped wars from occuring and resolving others? and how many of them expected respect and reverence just because they wore the shawl and could channel the one power?

 

Errmm the majority. At any given time more than 1/3 are out working for good in the world(and they constantly cyle in and out).

 

That's inaccurate because approx 1/5 of the White Tower is BA. A significant portion of the 1/3 of those AS wandering around are Black Ajah and are dedicated to doing evil and advancing the Shadow. I speculate that the Black Ajah would be over represented in the 1/3 of the AS wandering around. The BA is of all Ajahs, it would take fewer of them in the WT to guide events because of their united front. That would free more BA to go out wandering Randland to do evil, organize Darkfriends, sow chaos, etc.

[thisguy]

The Forsaken are Aes Sedai from a time when they were at their peak. The most powerful AS we know of and many turned to the DO. It seems to me they do as much good as they do bad. Yes, they've fought trollocs and fades at the borderlands but who created these creatures? Aes Sedai.

 

See this is dangerously close to condemning all power users based on the mere potential to do harm. I mean come on, Aginor creating shadowspawn is the AS's fault?

 

AS on the whole have done far more good than harm in saving the world during the Breaking, Trolloc Wars, etc. The facts of the story show this to be true just as it shows a 1/3 of the WT out working for good in the world at any given time.

 

In regards to the Forsaken not they don't count as AS just as BA do not once they have pledged their service to the Shadow. Finally you can not pull out individual sisters doing good and say they are not indicative of the WT. You have to take the good with the bad. For every Tetsuan there has been numerous sisters who have made a huge difference working for the light.

well, then you can't say all AS are good guys because a few of them do good. Not all of them do much that is wonderful.

 

The AS dug up the DO, the AS broke the world, the AS created trollocs and the other nasties, the AS are the Forsaken. They are just as good as they are bad. They fight amongst each other as much as the Forsaken do. I don't agree with them not counting. They were trained by the AS. Being an AS was part of their make up. Or, you can just agree with me that being an AS does not make you good. Many of these women joined for power, not just to learn how to control saidar.

I am taking the good with the bad. You seem to want to hold them up as good, I think they've done just as much harm as they've helped. which means the Tower in its entirety is not a benign force. And, it isn't - no more than any of the nations are a benign force. They're each a mixed bag.

[thisguy]

 

So when it serves the light it is a direct result of the greatness of AS, but when it is petty or evil it is solely that AS working alone and not due to the corruptness of the White Tower?

 

 

 

exactly. How can you say it's a benign force in its entirety when you have two camps vying for control over Rand in two different ways. Not only that, the first two letters he receives from the WT are from Elaida and Alviarin. Alviarin is a DF, isn't she. So three different camps vying to control Rand. They are not a benign force. They are a mixed bag. AND, it's my Opinion that this was something Mr Jordan wanted to make clear.

[thisguy]

Another argument I'd make that the Forsaken are AS is that the Black Ajah are AS. What's the difference? They've both made sworn themselves to the DO and have AS training.