Perspectives you dont want to see and you want to see

[Suttree]

Maybe, if Cadsuane didn't try pushing and ordering the guy around, she would have gotten somewhere.

 

Gotten somewhere? Again it too a lucky break at the end but her plan most certainly got somewhere. Without it the world would already be doomed.

Again, I'll have to wait until I'm on that book to comment but I never really thought she helped him. She seemed like another Aes Sedai who thought she knew what was best for him. Aside for Moiraine and a couple of others, they've mostly used him - basically raped him by binding him, stuffed him in a box, lied to him, etc. You think she would have realized she was dealing with someone with little trust left and gone about it differently.

 

Seems like there is a bunch you have forgotten. Here is a good post on the how and whys of her actions.

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/51169-the-subtleties-of-cadsuane/

 

[thisguy]

Maybe, if Cadsuane didn't try pushing and ordering the guy around, she would have gotten somewhere.

 

Gotten somewhere? Again it too a lucky break at the end but her plan most certainly got somewhere. Without it the world would already be doomed.

 

As an aside the killing his own troops was in TPoD and was a direct result of his trying to go it all alone.

I don't remember that, but if he did that's a big screw up. He also went it alone and got the Aiel behind him. The guy's not perfect but I feel like the Aes Sedai screwed him up royally - aside from Moiraine and Verin and a couple of others.

[thisguy]

Maybe, if Cadsuane didn't try pushing and ordering the guy around, she would have gotten somewhere.

 

Gotten somewhere? Again it too a lucky break at the end but her plan most certainly got somewhere. Without it the world would already be doomed.

Again, I'll have to wait until I'm on that book to comment but I never really thought she helped him. She seemed like another Aes Sedai who thought she knew what was best for him. Aside for Moiraine and a couple of others, they've mostly used him - basically raped him by binding him, stuffed him in a box, lied to him, etc. You think she would have realized she was dealing with someone with little trust left and gone about it differently.

 

Seems like there is a bunch you have forgotten. Here is a good post on the how and whys of her actions.

http://www.dragonmou...es-of-cadsuane/

 

Ok. I made it to Cadsuane's mission. I'll finish later. The Balefire thing I agree with. The having Rand confront his father, I agree with. She must have been aware of what the Aes Sedai had done with him and to him thus far, and I agree with Tam for going off on her. Considering that most of the actions that lead to Rand going down the path of being hard and emotionless had to do with being used, I personally don't think she did right by him or the world. That it ended up right, I'll leave with Tam and Rand and her because she made Rand confront his father. But, she could have easily pushed him further down the path of evil or whatever you'd like to call it.

[thisguy]

And, thanks for the link Suttree. I appreciate it. I read a lot, in general. I have read the earlier books 2 or more times but the later books only once and right after they came out.

[Suttree]

And, thanks for the link Suttree. I appreciate it. I read a lot, in general. I have read the earlier books 2 or more times but the later books only once and right after they came out.

 

No worries, thought you might enjoy it. As for AS screwing him up you may be surprised to recall Cads agrees with you. As was quoted earlier....

 

ACoS

Cadsuane touched Rand’s pale face, brushed strands of hair from his forehead. "Do not be afraid, boy," she said softly. "They made my task harder, and yours, but I will not hurt you more than I must."

[thisguy]

And, thanks for the link Suttree. I appreciate it. I read a lot, in general. I have read the earlier books 2 or more times but the later books only once and right after they came out.

 

No worries, thought you might enjoy it. As for AS screwing him up you may be surprised to recall Cads agrees with you. As was quoted earlier....

 

ACoS

Cadsuane touched Rand’s pale face, brushed strands of hair from his forehead. "Do not be afraid, boy," she said softly. "They made my task harder, and yours, but I will not hurt you more than I must."

 

Fair enough. But, it doesn't seem like she keeps that in mind while dealing with him.

[Luckers]

And, thanks for the link Suttree. I appreciate it. I read a lot, in general. I have read the earlier books 2 or more times but the later books only once and right after they came out.

 

No worries, thought you might enjoy it. As for AS screwing him up you may be surprised to recall Cads agrees with you. As was quoted earlier....

 

ACoS

Cadsuane touched Rand’s pale face, brushed strands of hair from his forehead. "Do not be afraid, boy," she said softly. "They made my task harder, and yours, but I will not hurt you more than I must."

 

Fair enough. But, it doesn't seem like she keeps that in mind while dealing with him.

 

She does--if she in truth bullies (and I still don't think it an accurate term for what she does, even if it may cover some elements of what she does), then she bullies with the precision of a surgeon. Until tGS. In fact the scene after Semirhage gets balefired makes an interesting counter-point with the scene where Cadsuane meets Rand--in both scenes she enters, not really sure of him. In the first she tests him, shifting methods and points of attack fluidly and draws from it startlingly accurate conclusions, whilst in the latter she is just boorish.

[Vardar]

And, to be clear, I don't mean a bad path for him but a bad path for the world if he took it too far. How much has he done that was really so bad except be rude to some people?

Off the top of my head...Use the TP. BF a palace. Kill his own troops because he would not listen to reason. Allow the sacrifice of a bishop for a queen when he could have taken Lanfear w/o the sacrifice. Allowed Taim to have his way with the BT. Turn his back on innocents starving to death.

 

1) Was because of his emotions

2) Good point, I personally think that was a good action. It killed a forsaken, and those people were good as dead anyway, sadly

3) I'll give you this one

4) Umm, this was emotional Rand.

5) Again, this started before evil rand. He was still pretty emotional then

6) When was this? He's been trying to feed the poor all the time. In Eban Whatever, what could he do at that point? Kinda a logical decision.

[thisguy]

Yeah, most of the points brought up, I don't think we're evil actions, at most foolish. Some not even foolish.

[Vardar]

Yeah, most of the points brought up, I don't think we're evil actions, at most foolish. Some not even foolish.

 

Some would have turned out worse had he not done them, or been better had he been Dark Rand (I'd rather call him Pure Logic Rand)

[Barid Bel Medar]

Yeah, most of the points brought up, I don't think we're evil actions, at most foolish. Some not even foolish.

 

Some would have turned out worse had he not done them, or been better had he been Dark Rand (I'd rather call him Pure Logic Rand)

 

I agree with you both. None of those actions were bad, they were mistakes. Rand didn't kill his own people for a bit of fun. Rand didn't balefire the Barrow for a laugh. Nor did he use the True Power to slaughter children. In fact, the TP actually saved the world. Semirhage would have completely destroyed him, had he not been given access.

 

Bad examples, nothing Rand did was inherently bad. Misguided some, and foolish as well. Some turned out to make things worse, but none of it was bad. Even in his darkest moments, nothing he did was evil.

[thisguy]

And not killing Lanfear was not a mistake at all. Because of that he had Asmodean to train him which he desperately needed.

[NitroS]

I agree with suttree and luckers on the cadsuane point, but with rands big notion at the begginning of the book not to hurt women the man that raised rand and put this quality in him not to hurt women would never be seen slapping a women.

 

I see nearly everyone saying they dont want perrin but BS is too in lvoe with him so i expect atleast 2 pointless chapters on him talking about being awolf, blacksmith, faile and 4 chapters of him being useful which is far too much perrin after most of his plot was covered in TOM. i think i read somewhere that BS said the black tower is about 6 chapters behind the proper story so atleast they will be good to start the book off i doubt we will get taim pov but will most likely get pevara, logain, naff, androl, random ashaman. Then FOM will probably be egwene/rand POV's. Moiraine will have atleast a chapter. Tar wins gap will be covered at the beginning so expect maybe half from lan half from random malkier man. Min will be half a chapter in the crappy callendor explanation. Then from there on its pretty cloudy on POV's. Can only hope for lots of Aes sedai and ashaman and minimum people that had there time in tgs,tom like gawyn, galad, perrin, faile, morgase, tuon.

[Suttree]

Yeah, most of the points brought up, I don't think we're evil actions, at most foolish. Some not even foolish.

 

Some would have turned out worse had he not done them, or been better had he been Dark Rand (I'd rather call him Pure Logic Rand)

 

I agree with you both. None of those actions were bad, they were mistakes. Rand didn't kill his own people for a bit of fun. Rand didn't balefire the Barrow for a laugh. Nor did he use the True Power to slaughter children. In fact, the TP actually saved the world. Semirhage would have completely destroyed him, had he not been given access.

 

Bad examples, nothing Rand did was inherently bad. Misguided some, and foolish as well. Some turned out to make things worse, but none of it was bad. Even in his darkest moments, nothing he did was evil.

 

As a point of correction no one ever said those were examples of Rand doing "evil". They were showing mistakes he made as a result of going farther and farther into his Dark Rand persona of which thisguy said he did nothing wrong aside from be "rude to a few people." That claim is patently false.

 

As for #6 yes he walked away from a city and left it to starve. When he made that decision he had no idea he was going to have a miraculous epiphany. In addition the food spoiling all over the world was a result of his going deeper into his dark mood and path.

[Barid Bel Medar]

As a point of correction no one ever said those were examples of Rand doing "evil". They were showing mistakes he made as a result of going farther and farther into his Dark Rand persona of which thisguy said he did nothing wrong aside from be "rude to a few people." That claim is patently false.

 

Indeed, I obviously didn't read that properly.

 

In essance, I agree. He made some wrong decisions. All of the characters have.

 

Made poor decisions in retrospect and screwed up - yes.

 

Did anything morally wrong intentionally - no.

[Vardar]

Yeah, most of the points brought up, I don't think we're evil actions, at most foolish. Some not even foolish.

 

Some would have turned out worse had he not done them, or been better had he been Dark Rand (I'd rather call him Pure Logic Rand)

 

I agree with you both. None of those actions were bad, they were mistakes. Rand didn't kill his own people for a bit of fun. Rand didn't balefire the Barrow for a laugh. Nor did he use the True Power to slaughter children. In fact, the TP actually saved the world. Semirhage would have completely destroyed him, had he not been given access.

 

Bad examples, nothing Rand did was inherently bad. Misguided some, and foolish as well. Some turned out to make things worse, but none of it was bad. Even in his darkest moments, nothing he did was evil.

 

As a point of correction no one ever said those were examples of Rand doing "evil". They were showing mistakes he made as a result of going farther and farther into his Dark Rand persona of which thisguy said he did nothing wrong aside from be "rude to a few people." That claim is patently false.

 

As for #6 yes he walked away from a city and left it to starve. When he made that decision he had no idea he was going to have a miraculous epiphany. In addition the food spoiling all over the world was a result of his going deeper into his dark mood and path.

 

Actually they were called "Bad" things he did in this thread. Bad is used as Evil at times, apparently you meant it as, wrong?

 

And Bel I liked your initial post better.

[thisguy]

Personally, as far as I can see, no one has been lied to, manipulated or used more than Rand in the books. If Cadsuane is supposed to be so wonderful (which by the way, when I read it, just because the AS who know of her always think 'legendary' or some other positive adjective when they think of her didn't impress me) she might have tried to do more than to just acknowledge that her fellow AS really screwed up and then say "I won't hurt you too bad" or whatever. Seriously. Let's make this somewhat real. You get your ass handed to you time and again by a group of people you're trying to save and then one you never met before comes up to you and says, "Wow, that sucks, they really screwed things up. I won't hurt you, though - much."

I'm surprised Rand wasn't like, "Hey, get the hell out of the palace or I'm gonna stuff you in a sack and leave you at the Bore when the time comes."

I know from the writing that we're supposed to get an impression, before we even meet her, about how wonderful she is but I didn't buy it.

[Suttree]

Personally, as far as I can see, no one has been lied to, manipulated or used more than Rand in the books. If Cadsuane is supposed to be so wonderful (which by the way, when I read it, just because the AS who know of her always think 'legendary' or some other positive adjective when they think of her didn't impress me) she might have tried to do more than to just acknowledge that her fellow AS really screwed up and then say "I won't hurt you too bad" or whatever. Seriously. Let's make this somewhat real. You get your ass handed to you time and again by a group of people you're trying to save and then one you never met before comes up to you and says, "Wow, that sucks, they really screwed things up. I won't hurt you, though - much."

I'm surprised Rand wasn't like, "Hey, get the hell out of the palace or I'm gonna stuff you in a sack and leave you at the Bore when the time comes."

I know from the writing that we're supposed to get an impression, before we even meet her, about how wonderful she is but I didn't buy it.

 

Here are RJ's notes on the character so you can check out some more background on her. Think it gives a very well rounded explanation for both her pride(read arrogance) and why she has been so succesful as to become a legend...

 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=652

[thisguy]

Personally, as far as I can see, no one has been lied to, manipulated or used more than Rand in the books. If Cadsuane is supposed to be so wonderful (which by the way, when I read it, just because the AS who know of her always think 'legendary' or some other positive adjective when they think of her didn't impress me) she might have tried to do more than to just acknowledge that her fellow AS really screwed up and then say "I won't hurt you too bad" or whatever. Seriously. Let's make this somewhat real. You get your ass handed to you time and again by a group of people you're trying to save and then one you never met before comes up to you and says, "Wow, that sucks, they really screwed things up. I won't hurt you, though - much."

I'm surprised Rand wasn't like, "Hey, get the hell out of the palace or I'm gonna stuff you in a sack and leave you at the Bore when the time comes."

I know from the writing that we're supposed to get an impression, before we even meet her, about how wonderful she is but I didn't buy it.

 

Here are RJ's notes on the character so you can check out some more background on her. Think it gives a very well rounded explanation for both her pride(read arrogance) and why she has been so succesful as to become a legend...

 

http://www.theorylan...vmain.php?i=652

Yeah, I appreciate that, really. But, what would that matter to Rand? Even if there were originally 17 forsaken and she did away with 4 of them before the books began, why should Rand care. She basically comes, states the truth and then threatens him in a way. She's lucky he didn't destroy her.

[Vardar]

Personally, as far as I can see, no one has been lied to, manipulated or used more than Rand in the books. If Cadsuane is supposed to be so wonderful (which by the way, when I read it, just because the AS who know of her always think 'legendary' or some other positive adjective when they think of her didn't impress me) she might have tried to do more than to just acknowledge that her fellow AS really screwed up and then say "I won't hurt you too bad" or whatever. Seriously. Let's make this somewhat real. You get your ass handed to you time and again by a group of people you're trying to save and then one you never met before comes up to you and says, "Wow, that sucks, they really screwed things up. I won't hurt you, though - much."

I'm surprised Rand wasn't like, "Hey, get the hell out of the palace or I'm gonna stuff you in a sack and leave you at the Bore when the time comes."

I know from the writing that we're supposed to get an impression, before we even meet her, about how wonderful she is but I didn't buy it.

 

Here are RJ's notes on the character so you can check out some more background on her. Think it gives a very well rounded explanation for both her pride(read arrogance) and why she has been so succesful as to become a legend...

 

http://www.theorylan...vmain.php?i=652

Yeah, I appreciate that, really. But, what would that matter to Rand? Even if there were originally 17 forsaken and she did away with 4 of them before the books began, why should Rand care. She basically comes, states the truth and then threatens him in a way. She's lucky he didn't destroy her.

 

Cad's Paralis net contains a ter'angreal that makes her immune to direct channeling. Just like Mat's Foxhead, that we thought was so rare. So apparently even if he wanted too, he couldn't.

 

I know, huge plot hole, but it's there.

[thisguy]

Personally, as far as I can see, no one has been lied to, manipulated or used more than Rand in the books. If Cadsuane is supposed to be so wonderful (which by the way, when I read it, just because the AS who know of her always think 'legendary' or some other positive adjective when they think of her didn't impress me) she might have tried to do more than to just acknowledge that her fellow AS really screwed up and then say "I won't hurt you too bad" or whatever. Seriously. Let's make this somewhat real. You get your ass handed to you time and again by a group of people you're trying to save and then one you never met before comes up to you and says, "Wow, that sucks, they really screwed things up. I won't hurt you, though - much."

I'm surprised Rand wasn't like, "Hey, get the hell out of the palace or I'm gonna stuff you in a sack and leave you at the Bore when the time comes."

I know from the writing that we're supposed to get an impression, before we even meet her, about how wonderful she is but I didn't buy it.

 

Here are RJ's notes on the character so you can check out some more background on her. Think it gives a very well rounded explanation for both her pride(read arrogance) and why she has been so succesful as to become a legend...

 

http://www.theorylan...vmain.php?i=652

Yeah, I appreciate that, really. But, what would that matter to Rand? Even if there were originally 17 forsaken and she did away with 4 of them before the books began, why should Rand care. She basically comes, states the truth and then threatens him in a way. She's lucky he didn't destroy her.

 

Cad's Paralis net contains a ter'angreal that makes her immune to direct channeling. Just like Mat's Foxhead, that we thought was so rare. So apparently even if he wanted too, he couldn't.

 

I know, huge plot hole, but it's there.

Well, he could slice her up or have the maidens do it. You get my point, though. Just because she's supposed to be the wunderbar uber-Aes Sedai doesn't mean she's all that. She pushes a guy who everyone knows is going insane. I don't think she's all that bright, myself.

[Suttree]

Personally, as far as I can see, no one has been lied to, manipulated or used more than Rand in the books. If Cadsuane is supposed to be so wonderful (which by the way, when I read it, just because the AS who know of her always think 'legendary' or some other positive adjective when they think of her didn't impress me) she might have tried to do more than to just acknowledge that her fellow AS really screwed up and then say "I won't hurt you too bad" or whatever. Seriously. Let's make this somewhat real. You get your ass handed to you time and again by a group of people you're trying to save and then one you never met before comes up to you and says, "Wow, that sucks, they really screwed things up. I won't hurt you, though - much."

I'm surprised Rand wasn't like, "Hey, get the hell out of the palace or I'm gonna stuff you in a sack and leave you at the Bore when the time comes."

I know from the writing that we're supposed to get an impression, before we even meet her, about how wonderful she is but I didn't buy it.

 

Here are RJ's notes on the character so you can check out some more background on her. Think it gives a very well rounded explanation for both her pride(read arrogance) and why she has been so succesful as to become a legend...

 

http://www.theorylan...vmain.php?i=652

Yeah, I appreciate that, really. But, what would that matter to Rand? Even if there were originally 17 forsaken and she did away with 4 of them before the books began, why should Rand care. She basically comes, states the truth and then threatens him in a way. She's lucky he didn't destroy her.

 

Cad's Paralis net contains a ter'angreal that makes her immune to direct channeling. Just like Mat's Foxhead, that we thought was so rare. So apparently even if he wanted too, he couldn't.

 

I know, huge plot hole, but it's there.

Well, he could slice her up or have the maidens do it. You get my point, though. Just because she's supposed to be the wunderbar uber-Aes Sedai doesn't mean she's all that. She pushes a guy who everyone knows is going insane. I don't think she's all that bright, myself.

 

But we know she is all that based on her back story. She is the epitome of what an AS should, one who deosn't mind standing WT custom on it's head in order for things to get done. She has shown to be extremely bright throughout the series whether it's sizing up what method is best to use with various individuals or coming up with brilliant plans(defense of the cleansing, setting up Rands rescue from Far Madding) or taking down false dragons like Logain and Taim. The proof is in both the text and notes.

 

Not sure why you are having a hard time wrapping your head around the fact that she has always put what was best for Rand and the world first. She has had his back more than just about anyone else besides Min in the series.

[thisguy]

Personally, as far as I can see, no one has been lied to, manipulated or used more than Rand in the books. If Cadsuane is supposed to be so wonderful (which by the way, when I read it, just because the AS who know of her always think 'legendary' or some other positive adjective when they think of her didn't impress me) she might have tried to do more than to just acknowledge that her fellow AS really screwed up and then say "I won't hurt you too bad" or whatever. Seriously. Let's make this somewhat real. You get your ass handed to you time and again by a group of people you're trying to save and then one you never met before comes up to you and says, "Wow, that sucks, they really screwed things up. I won't hurt you, though - much."

I'm surprised Rand wasn't like, "Hey, get the hell out of the palace or I'm gonna stuff you in a sack and leave you at the Bore when the time comes."

I know from the writing that we're supposed to get an impression, before we even meet her, about how wonderful she is but I didn't buy it.

 

Here are RJ's notes on the character so you can check out some more background on her. Think it gives a very well rounded explanation for both her pride(read arrogance) and why she has been so succesful as to become a legend...

 

http://www.theorylan...vmain.php?i=652

Yeah, I appreciate that, really. But, what would that matter to Rand? Even if there were originally 17 forsaken and she did away with 4 of them before the books began, why should Rand care. She basically comes, states the truth and then threatens him in a way. She's lucky he didn't destroy her.

 

Cad's Paralis net contains a ter'angreal that makes her immune to direct channeling. Just like Mat's Foxhead, that we thought was so rare. So apparently even if he wanted too, he couldn't.

 

I know, huge plot hole, but it's there.

Well, he could slice her up or have the maidens do it. You get my point, though. Just because she's supposed to be the wunderbar uber-Aes Sedai doesn't mean she's all that. She pushes a guy who everyone knows is going insane. I don't think she's all that bright, myself.

 

But we know she is all that based on her back story. She is the epitome of what an AS should, one who deosn't mind standing WT custom on it's head in order for things to get done. She has shown to be extremely bright throughout the series whether it's sizing up what method is best to use with various individuals or coming up with brilliant plans(defense of the cleansing, setting up Rands rescue from Far Madding) or taking down false dragons like Logain and Taim. The proof is in both the text and notes.

Yes, you and I the reader are told all of this. Why would any of this matter to Rand? He's been told a billion things about the AS which have proven to be false - both good and bad. So, she comes in and pushes him right away. He's basically insane and under more pressure than pretty much anyone and she decides to push him. I, personally, don't find her to be all that fantastic from what we get to see of her in-story - not from back story. It's like if RJ had described Lan as an invincible warder and then he came in and flubbed up a fight with a couple of trollocs.

Rereading the books now, I'm not entirely with the 3 guys about wanting to be off AS strings, at first. Yes, Moiraine didn't tell them everything but I can respect her from what I've seen. She's a hard ass but wants to protect them because she knows how important they are. Verin - I really like that character. But, most of the rest of the AS are really a bunch of jerks. If you took away the fact that you're told how they're powerful and have all this knowledge, they'd just be a bunch of greedy, selfish, domineering people trying to push people around. I'd be fine with that if they were really doing something positive with that but they're not. I think if Cadsuane knows this, which she apparently does, she'd try not acting exactly like them.

They're mobsters with magic.

[Vardar]

Yes, you and I the reader are told all of this. Why would any of this matter to Rand? He's been told a billion things about the AS which have proven to be false - both good and bad. So, she comes in and pushes him right away. He's basically insane and under more pressure than pretty much anyone and she decides to push him. I, personally, don't find her to be all that fantastic from what we get to see of her in-story - not from back story. It's like if RJ had described Lan as an invincible warder and then he came in and flubbed up a fight with a couple of trollocs.

Rereading the books now, I'm not entirely with the 3 guys about wanting to be off AS strings, at first. Yes, Moiraine didn't tell them everything but I can respect her from what I've seen. She's a hard ass but wants to protect them because she knows how important they are. Verin - I really like that character. But, most of the rest of the AS are really a bunch of jerks. If you took away the fact that you're told how they're powerful and have all this knowledge, they'd just be a bunch of greedy, selfish, domineering people trying to push people around. I'd be fine with that if they were really doing something positive with that but they're not. I think if Cadsuane knows this, which she apparently does, she'd try not acting exactly like them.

They're mobsters with magic.

 

Haha, perfect!

[thisguy]

Yes, you and I the reader are told all of this. Why would any of this matter to Rand? He's been told a billion things about the AS which have proven to be false - both good and bad. So, she comes in and pushes him right away. He's basically insane and under more pressure than pretty much anyone and she decides to push him. I, personally, don't find her to be all that fantastic from what we get to see of her in-story - not from back story. It's like if RJ had described Lan as an invincible warder and then he came in and flubbed up a fight with a couple of trollocs.

Rereading the books now, I'm not entirely with the 3 guys about wanting to be off AS strings, at first. Yes, Moiraine didn't tell them everything but I can respect her from what I've seen. She's a hard ass but wants to protect them because she knows how important they are. Verin - I really like that character. But, most of the rest of the AS are really a bunch of jerks. If you took away the fact that you're told how they're powerful and have all this knowledge, they'd just be a bunch of greedy, selfish, domineering people trying to push people around. I'd be fine with that if they were really doing something positive with that but they're not. I think if Cadsuane knows this, which she apparently does, she'd try not acting exactly like them.

They're mobsters with magic.

 

Haha, perfect!

"It's an Aes Sedai message. It means Rand Al'Thor sleeps with the fishes." ;)