Perspectives you dont want to see and you want to see

[thisguy]

To me, the weird thing about the Cadsuane/Tam interaction wasn't that she used 'violence' (she smacked Rand in ACoS and walloped his backside in KoD), but the particular timing of it during their conversation (Tam telling her to 'watch your tongue, Aes Sedai' should cause much more consternation than 'you have a lot to answer for') and her inexplicable speechlessness when he calls her a bully.

 

I do not dislike the scene as much as some, however. I think there is something to be said for it as a culmination, via his father, of the frustration that Rand makes Aes Sedai feel. Moiraine from EOTW would never have used force to win an argument, but by TFoH, she's frustrated enough to use the power as a disciplinary tool. The problem with Cadsuane/Tam scene is it is written too ham-handedley, especially since Rand, the object of frustration, is gone, and two of the characters who care most about Rand (as a son and as the savior of the world) so easily push the danger he is in out of their minds in order to have a petty argument.

Yeah, I get the feeling that what happened (maybe not exactly how it happened) was written by RJ. I think she is a bully (whether she was doing it for the right reasons or not) and was not surprised by her picking Tam up. A good many of the Aes Sedai act that way.

 

We know that section was not in anyway written by RJ. BS expressed happiness(Cads is not his fav character to put it lightly) with being able to write the scene out as he did...

RJ never planned for a little showdown between Tam and Cad?

[Suttree]

To me, the weird thing about the Cadsuane/Tam interaction wasn't that she used 'violence' (she smacked Rand in ACoS and walloped his backside in KoD), but the particular timing of it during their conversation (Tam telling her to 'watch your tongue, Aes Sedai' should cause much more consternation than 'you have a lot to answer for') and her inexplicable speechlessness when he calls her a bully.

 

I do not dislike the scene as much as some, however. I think there is something to be said for it as a culmination, via his father, of the frustration that Rand makes Aes Sedai feel. Moiraine from EOTW would never have used force to win an argument, but by TFoH, she's frustrated enough to use the power as a disciplinary tool. The problem with Cadsuane/Tam scene is it is written too ham-handedley, especially since Rand, the object of frustration, is gone, and two of the characters who care most about Rand (as a son and as the savior of the world) so easily push the danger he is in out of their minds in order to have a petty argument.

Yeah, I get the feeling that what happened (maybe not exactly how it happened) was written by RJ. I think she is a bully (whether she was doing it for the right reasons or not) and was not surprised by her picking Tam up. A good many of the Aes Sedai act that way.

 

We know that section was not in anyway written by RJ. BS expressed happiness(Cads is not his fav character to put it lightly) with being able to write the scene out as he did...

RJ never planned for a little showdown between Tam and Cad?

 

There very well may have been an outline of some sort for a confrontation but the details of it and writing were all BS.

[thisguy]

To me, the weird thing about the Cadsuane/Tam interaction wasn't that she used 'violence' (she smacked Rand in ACoS and walloped his backside in KoD), but the particular timing of it during their conversation (Tam telling her to 'watch your tongue, Aes Sedai' should cause much more consternation than 'you have a lot to answer for') and her inexplicable speechlessness when he calls her a bully.

 

I do not dislike the scene as much as some, however. I think there is something to be said for it as a culmination, via his father, of the frustration that Rand makes Aes Sedai feel. Moiraine from EOTW would never have used force to win an argument, but by TFoH, she's frustrated enough to use the power as a disciplinary tool. The problem with Cadsuane/Tam scene is it is written too ham-handedley, especially since Rand, the object of frustration, is gone, and two of the characters who care most about Rand (as a son and as the savior of the world) so easily push the danger he is in out of their minds in order to have a petty argument.

Yeah, I get the feeling that what happened (maybe not exactly how it happened) was written by RJ. I think she is a bully (whether she was doing it for the right reasons or not) and was not surprised by her picking Tam up. A good many of the Aes Sedai act that way.

 

We know that section was not in anyway written by RJ. BS expressed happiness(Cads is not his fav character to put it lightly) with being able to write the scene out as he did...

RJ never planned for a little showdown between Tam and Cad?

 

There very well may have been an outline of some sort for a confrontation but the details of it and writing were all BS.

That's what I meant with "maybe not exactly how it happened". I see a lot of people have a problem with this but I didn't. Now, I've only read it once right after the book came out but Cad always hit me as one of those Aes Sedai who thought they were so wonderful and could do whatever they wanted and always knew best and you had to do what she said. The three boys are ta'averen and basically going to be the saviors of the world and have better manners.

[Suttree]

To me, the weird thing about the Cadsuane/Tam interaction wasn't that she used 'violence' (she smacked Rand in ACoS and walloped his backside in KoD), but the particular timing of it during their conversation (Tam telling her to 'watch your tongue, Aes Sedai' should cause much more consternation than 'you have a lot to answer for') and her inexplicable speechlessness when he calls her a bully.

 

I do not dislike the scene as much as some, however. I think there is something to be said for it as a culmination, via his father, of the frustration that Rand makes Aes Sedai feel. Moiraine from EOTW would never have used force to win an argument, but by TFoH, she's frustrated enough to use the power as a disciplinary tool. The problem with Cadsuane/Tam scene is it is written too ham-handedley, especially since Rand, the object of frustration, is gone, and two of the characters who care most about Rand (as a son and as the savior of the world) so easily push the danger he is in out of their minds in order to have a petty argument.

Yeah, I get the feeling that what happened (maybe not exactly how it happened) was written by RJ. I think she is a bully (whether she was doing it for the right reasons or not) and was not surprised by her picking Tam up. A good many of the Aes Sedai act that way.

 

We know that section was not in anyway written by RJ. BS expressed happiness(Cads is not his fav character to put it lightly) with being able to write the scene out as he did...

RJ never planned for a little showdown between Tam and Cad?

 

There very well may have been an outline of some sort for a confrontation but the details of it and writing were all BS.

That's what I meant with "maybe not exactly how it happened". I see a lot of people have a problem with this but I didn't. Now, I've only read it once right after the book came out but Cad always hit me as one of those Aes Sedai who thought they were so wonderful and could do whatever they wanted and always knew best and you had to do what she said. The three boys are ta'averen and basically going to be the saviors of the world and have better manners.

 

Well yeah there is a ton of her thinking she knows best because that has been reinforced by all her success. Anyting else wouldn't really be realistic. For hundreds of years she has been what an AS should be. Taking down more male channelers than any two reds combined, rescuing people from the blight, breaking up rings of DF's, propping up thrones, rooting out plots agains the Amrylin etc. All the while she eschewed personal accolades turning down positions of high power within the WT. Now that the DR came along she vowed to teach him the lesson he needed so the world wouldn't be doomed by his actions. All of that while putting what was best for him, not herself or the WT first.

[thisguy]

To me, the weird thing about the Cadsuane/Tam interaction wasn't that she used 'violence' (she smacked Rand in ACoS and walloped his backside in KoD), but the particular timing of it during their conversation (Tam telling her to 'watch your tongue, Aes Sedai' should cause much more consternation than 'you have a lot to answer for') and her inexplicable speechlessness when he calls her a bully.

 

I do not dislike the scene as much as some, however. I think there is something to be said for it as a culmination, via his father, of the frustration that Rand makes Aes Sedai feel. Moiraine from EOTW would never have used force to win an argument, but by TFoH, she's frustrated enough to use the power as a disciplinary tool. The problem with Cadsuane/Tam scene is it is written too ham-handedley, especially since Rand, the object of frustration, is gone, and two of the characters who care most about Rand (as a son and as the savior of the world) so easily push the danger he is in out of their minds in order to have a petty argument.

Yeah, I get the feeling that what happened (maybe not exactly how it happened) was written by RJ. I think she is a bully (whether she was doing it for the right reasons or not) and was not surprised by her picking Tam up. A good many of the Aes Sedai act that way.

 

We know that section was not in anyway written by RJ. BS expressed happiness(Cads is not his fav character to put it lightly) with being able to write the scene out as he did...

RJ never planned for a little showdown between Tam and Cad?

 

There very well may have been an outline of some sort for a confrontation but the details of it and writing were all BS.

That's what I meant with "maybe not exactly how it happened". I see a lot of people have a problem with this but I didn't. Now, I've only read it once right after the book came out but Cad always hit me as one of those Aes Sedai who thought they were so wonderful and could do whatever they wanted and always knew best and you had to do what she said. The three boys are ta'averen and basically going to be the saviors of the world and have better manners.

 

Well yeah there is a ton of her thinking she knows best because that has been reinforced by all her success. Anyting else wouldn't really be realistic. For hundreds of years she has been what an AS should be. Taking down more male channelers than any two reds combined, rescuing people from the blight, breaking up rings of DF's, propping up thrones, rooting out plots agains the Amrylin etc. All the while she eschewed personal accolades turning down positions of high power within the WT. Now that the DR came along she vowed to teach him the lesson he needed to the world wouldn't be doomed by his actions. All of that while putting what was best for him, not herself or the WT first.

And at the age of 20-21 he's taken over a couple of countries, lead the Aiel out of the Waste, killed a few Forsaken, has three girlfriends and one's a Queen, bonded Aes Sedai, cleansed the Taint, started a University, became a blademaster, saved a billion people, etc. Even when he was being a jerk he was a nice guy than she was.

[Suttree]

To me, the weird thing about the Cadsuane/Tam interaction wasn't that she used 'violence' (she smacked Rand in ACoS and walloped his backside in KoD), but the particular timing of it during their conversation (Tam telling her to 'watch your tongue, Aes Sedai' should cause much more consternation than 'you have a lot to answer for') and her inexplicable speechlessness when he calls her a bully.

 

I do not dislike the scene as much as some, however. I think there is something to be said for it as a culmination, via his father, of the frustration that Rand makes Aes Sedai feel. Moiraine from EOTW would never have used force to win an argument, but by TFoH, she's frustrated enough to use the power as a disciplinary tool. The problem with Cadsuane/Tam scene is it is written too ham-handedley, especially since Rand, the object of frustration, is gone, and two of the characters who care most about Rand (as a son and as the savior of the world) so easily push the danger he is in out of their minds in order to have a petty argument.

Yeah, I get the feeling that what happened (maybe not exactly how it happened) was written by RJ. I think she is a bully (whether she was doing it for the right reasons or not) and was not surprised by her picking Tam up. A good many of the Aes Sedai act that way.

 

We know that section was not in anyway written by RJ. BS expressed happiness(Cads is not his fav character to put it lightly) with being able to write the scene out as he did...

RJ never planned for a little showdown between Tam and Cad?

 

There very well may have been an outline of some sort for a confrontation but the details of it and writing were all BS.

That's what I meant with "maybe not exactly how it happened". I see a lot of people have a problem with this but I didn't. Now, I've only read it once right after the book came out but Cad always hit me as one of those Aes Sedai who thought they were so wonderful and could do whatever they wanted and always knew best and you had to do what she said. The three boys are ta'averen and basically going to be the saviors of the world and have better manners.

 

Well yeah there is a ton of her thinking she knows best because that has been reinforced by all her success. Anyting else wouldn't really be realistic. For hundreds of years she has been what an AS should be. Taking down more male channelers than any two reds combined, rescuing people from the blight, breaking up rings of DF's, propping up thrones, rooting out plots agains the Amrylin etc. All the while she eschewed personal accolades turning down positions of high power within the WT. Now that the DR came along she vowed to teach him the lesson he needed to the world wouldn't be doomed by his actions. All of that while putting what was best for him, not herself or the WT first.

And at the age of 20-21 he's taken over a couple of countries, lead the Aiel out of the Waste, killed a few Forsaken, has three girlfriends and one's a Queen, bonded Aes Sedai, cleansed the Taint, started a University, became a blademaster, saved a billion people, etc. Even when he was being a jerk he was a nice guy than she was.

 

Well yeah, he's the savior of the world and it's his destiny. A strong theme through the books though is how much help he needs and how wrong things become when he tries to go it all alone. Keep in mind without her planned defense at the cleansing and her lesson being taught the world may already very well be destroyed.

 

As for nice, not sure how much that matters with the fate of the world in the balance. You get things done and niceties be damned. RJ in his notes highlighted that Cads never minded bruising egos when needed to accomplish a goal. Not sure why you are feeling the need to compare personalities but are you really trying to claim Dark Rand is nicer than Cads? Thats a bit much...

[thisguy]

To me, the weird thing about the Cadsuane/Tam interaction wasn't that she used 'violence' (she smacked Rand in ACoS and walloped his backside in KoD), but the particular timing of it during their conversation (Tam telling her to 'watch your tongue, Aes Sedai' should cause much more consternation than 'you have a lot to answer for') and her inexplicable speechlessness when he calls her a bully.

 

I do not dislike the scene as much as some, however. I think there is something to be said for it as a culmination, via his father, of the frustration that Rand makes Aes Sedai feel. Moiraine from EOTW would never have used force to win an argument, but by TFoH, she's frustrated enough to use the power as a disciplinary tool. The problem with Cadsuane/Tam scene is it is written too ham-handedley, especially since Rand, the object of frustration, is gone, and two of the characters who care most about Rand (as a son and as the savior of the world) so easily push the danger he is in out of their minds in order to have a petty argument.

Yeah, I get the feeling that what happened (maybe not exactly how it happened) was written by RJ. I think she is a bully (whether she was doing it for the right reasons or not) and was not surprised by her picking Tam up. A good many of the Aes Sedai act that way.

 

We know that section was not in anyway written by RJ. BS expressed happiness(Cads is not his fav character to put it lightly) with being able to write the scene out as he did...

RJ never planned for a little showdown between Tam and Cad?

 

There very well may have been an outline of some sort for a confrontation but the details of it and writing were all BS.

That's what I meant with "maybe not exactly how it happened". I see a lot of people have a problem with this but I didn't. Now, I've only read it once right after the book came out but Cad always hit me as one of those Aes Sedai who thought they were so wonderful and could do whatever they wanted and always knew best and you had to do what she said. The three boys are ta'averen and basically going to be the saviors of the world and have better manners.

 

Well yeah there is a ton of her thinking she knows best because that has been reinforced by all her success. Anyting else wouldn't really be realistic. For hundreds of years she has been what an AS should be. Taking down more male channelers than any two reds combined, rescuing people from the blight, breaking up rings of DF's, propping up thrones, rooting out plots agains the Amrylin etc. All the while she eschewed personal accolades turning down positions of high power within the WT. Now that the DR came along she vowed to teach him the lesson he needed to the world wouldn't be doomed by his actions. All of that while putting what was best for him, not herself or the WT first.

And at the age of 20-21 he's taken over a couple of countries, lead the Aiel out of the Waste, killed a few Forsaken, has three girlfriends and one's a Queen, bonded Aes Sedai, cleansed the Taint, started a University, became a blademaster, saved a billion people, etc. Even when he was being a jerk he was a nice guy than she was.

 

Well yeah, he's the savior of the world and it's his destiny. A strong theme through the books though is how much help he needs and how wrong things become when he tries to go it all alone. Keep in mind without her planned defense at the cleansing and her lesson being taught the world may already very well be destroyed.

 

As for nice, not sure how much that matters with the fate of the world in the balance. You get things done and niceties be damned. RJ in his notes highlighted that Cads never minded bruising egos when needed to accomplish a goal. Not sure why you are feeling the need to compare personalities but are you really trying to claim Dark Rand is nicer than Cads? Thats a bit much...

No, basically, I think her ego is huge and she got it slammed down. Too bad. I wasn't really taken aback at her attacking a man who was in her mind out of line, and I'm glad that Tam told her what he thought.

[Vardar]

Well yeah, he's the savior of the world and it's his destiny. A strong theme through the books though is how much help he needs and how wrong things become when he tries to go it all alone. Keep in mind without her planned defense at the cleansing and her lesson being taught the world may already very well be destroyed.

 

As for nice, not sure how much that matters with the fate of the world in the balance. You get things done and niceties be damned. RJ in his notes highlighted that Cads never minded bruising egos when needed to accomplish a goal. Not sure why you are feeling the need to compare personalities but are you really trying to claim Dark Rand is nicer than Cads? Thats a bit much...

 

HA!

 

Never heard that claim before, however I'll chime in and say Dark Rand was more polite than Cads.

 

Nicer? Well, I wouldn't call Cads Nice at all, and Rand was trying not to be nice, he was trying to be unemotional, so they're about even on that front.

[thisguy]

Well yeah, he's the savior of the world and it's his destiny. A strong theme through the books though is how much help he needs and how wrong things become when he tries to go it all alone. Keep in mind without her planned defense at the cleansing and her lesson being taught the world may already very well be destroyed.

 

As for nice, not sure how much that matters with the fate of the world in the balance. You get things done and niceties be damned. RJ in his notes highlighted that Cads never minded bruising egos when needed to accomplish a goal. Not sure why you are feeling the need to compare personalities but are you really trying to claim Dark Rand is nicer than Cads? Thats a bit much...

 

HA!

 

Never heard that claim before, however I'll chime in and say Dark Rand was more polite than Cads.

 

Nicer? Well, I wouldn't call Cads Nice at all, and Rand was trying not to be nice, he was trying to be unemotional, so they're about even on that front.

I was using nice as a general term. I just like the guy more even when he's bending towards evil. I think she's an ego maniac. I think he was a dude under a whole lot of pressure and feeling a whole lot of guilt. He's entitled to be a bit of an a-hole.

[Suttree]

No, basically, I think her ego is huge and she got it slammed down. Too bad. I wasn't really taken aback at her attacking a man who was in her mind out of line, and I'm glad that Tam told her what he thought.

 

When people question the scene they don't have a problem with the confrontation. The issue is it was a huge missed opportunity. As many have noted Cads was turned into a caricature and the writing was blunt and ham fisted. The whole things happenes in one paragraph and within one sentence Cads goes from asking him why he went off script to lashing out with the OP. She never, in the entire series, uses the OP in this way and would be disgusted by any Sister who would have to resort to that. As many have mentioned Tam doesn't even get to look good, how much credit do you get for calling a fool a fool after all? It is one of many scenes in which BS dumbs down one character to give another the upper hand while allowing fan gratifcation to carry the scene instead of the actual writing. I was really looking forward to a confrontation such as this and unfortunately it fell well short.

[thisguy]

No, basically, I think her ego is huge and she got it slammed down. Too bad. I wasn't really taken aback at her attacking a man who was in her mind out of line, and I'm glad that Tam told her what he thought.

 

When people question the scene they don't have a problem with the confrontation. The issue is it was a huge missed opportunity. As many have noted Cads was turned into a caricature and the writing was blunt and ham fisted. The whole things happenes in one paragraph and within one sentence Cads goes from asking him why he went off script to lashing out with the OP. She never, in the entire series, uses the OP in this way and would be disgusted by any Sister who would have to resort to that. As many have mentioned Tam doesn't even get to look good, how much credit do you get for calling a fool a fool after all? It is one of many scenes in which BS dumbs down one character to give another the upper hand while allowing fan gratifcation to carry the scene instead of the actual writing. I was really looking forward to a confrontation such as this and unfortunately it fell well short.

I haven't read it since it came out so I can't really say. I do remember what happened vaguely. I wonder if Sanderson also figured it's not the most important piece of the plot and just summed it up. Hired to write one book that's ending up bigger than most trilogies, I'm willing to cut the guy some slack. ;)

[Vardar]

Well yeah, he's the savior of the world and it's his destiny. A strong theme through the books though is how much help he needs and how wrong things become when he tries to go it all alone. Keep in mind without her planned defense at the cleansing and her lesson being taught the world may already very well be destroyed.

 

As for nice, not sure how much that matters with the fate of the world in the balance. You get things done and niceties be damned. RJ in his notes highlighted that Cads never minded bruising egos when needed to accomplish a goal. Not sure why you are feeling the need to compare personalities but are you really trying to claim Dark Rand is nicer than Cads? Thats a bit much...

 

HA!

 

Never heard that claim before, however I'll chime in and say Dark Rand was more polite than Cads.

 

Nicer? Well, I wouldn't call Cads Nice at all, and Rand was trying not to be nice, he was trying to be unemotional, so they're about even on that front.

I was using nice as a general term. I just like the guy more even when he's bending towards evil. I think she's an ego maniac. I think he was a dude under a whole lot of pressure and feeling a whole lot of guilt. He's entitled to be a bit of an a-hole.

 

I never read Evil Rand as an A-hole at all. I read him as logical to the point or resisting all emotions (Except for his whole not hurting women crap) to me he was turning into Spock, although some people read that as rude, or mean, or what not.

[thisguy]

Well yeah, he's the savior of the world and it's his destiny. A strong theme through the books though is how much help he needs and how wrong things become when he tries to go it all alone. Keep in mind without her planned defense at the cleansing and her lesson being taught the world may already very well be destroyed.

 

As for nice, not sure how much that matters with the fate of the world in the balance. You get things done and niceties be damned. RJ in his notes highlighted that Cads never minded bruising egos when needed to accomplish a goal. Not sure why you are feeling the need to compare personalities but are you really trying to claim Dark Rand is nicer than Cads? Thats a bit much...

 

HA!

 

Never heard that claim before, however I'll chime in and say Dark Rand was more polite than Cads.

 

Nicer? Well, I wouldn't call Cads Nice at all, and Rand was trying not to be nice, he was trying to be unemotional, so they're about even on that front.

I was using nice as a general term. I just like the guy more even when he's bending towards evil. I think she's an ego maniac. I think he was a dude under a whole lot of pressure and feeling a whole lot of guilt. He's entitled to be a bit of an a-hole.

 

I never read Evil Rand as an A-hole at all. I read him as logical to the point or resisting all emotions (Except for his whole not hurting women crap) to me he was turning into Spock, although some people read that as rude, or mean, or what not.

I agree, completely. The only reason I knew it was probably a bad path for him to take is because Lanfear was telling him how he should surround himself in the void always when she first came into the story.

[Suttree]

The only reason I knew it was probably a bad path for him to take is because Lanfear was telling him how he should surround himself in the void always when she first came into the story.

 

Seriously? That was the ony reason you thought Dark Rand was on a bad path?!?!

[thisguy]

The only reason I knew it was probably a bad path for him to take is because Lanfear was telling him how he should surround himself in the void always when she first came into the story.

 

Seriously? That was the ony reason you thought Dark Rand was on a bad path?!?!

No, that's the only reason why him being overly logically and cutting himself off from his emotions seemed to be a bad thing. Wrapping himself in the void, cutting himself off from emotions was the bad path.

[thisguy]

And, to be clear, I don't mean a bad path for him but a bad path for the world if he took it too far. How much has he done that was really so bad except be rude to some people?

[XoMeltdownoX]

And, to be clear, I don't mean a bad path for him but a bad path for the world if he took it too far. How much has he done that was really so bad except be rude to some people?

Off the top of my head...Use the TP. BF a palace. Kill his own troops because he would not listen to reason. Allow the sacrifice of a bishop for a queen when he could have taken Lanfear w/o the sacrifice. Allowed Taim to have his way with the BT. Turn his back on innocents starving to death.

[Suttree]

And, to be clear, I don't mean a bad path for him but a bad path for the world if he took it too far. How much has he done that was really so bad except be rude to some people?

Off the top of my head...Use the TP. BF a palace. Kill his own troops because he would not listen to reason. Allow the sacrifice of a bishop for a queen when he could have taken Lanfear w/o the sacrifice. Allowed Taim to have his way with the BT. Turn his back on innocents starving to death.

 

Was pretty surpised by the question as the answer is so obvious but thanks for jumping in....

[XoMeltdownoX]

And, to be clear, I don't mean a bad path for him but a bad path for the world if he took it too far. How much has he done that was really so bad except be rude to some people?

Off the top of my head...Use the TP. BF a palace. Kill his own troops because he would not listen to reason. Allow the sacrifice of a bishop for a queen when he could have taken Lanfear w/o the sacrifice. Allowed Taim to have his way with the BT. Turn his back on innocents starving to death.

 

Was pretty surpised by the question as the answer is so obvious but thanks for jumping in....

Ah...ya...did not mean to post block you. It's just as you said, pretty obvious.

 

I am not trying to have a go at Rand, but well here is a partial list of the sins Zen Rand refers to in ToM. By cutting himself off from emotions he begins his journey down the Darth Rand path. Starts out small, like allowing one woman to sacrifice herself because he could not harm another women, even though she was trying to kill him (and others).

[thisguy]

And, to be clear, I don't mean a bad path for him but a bad path for the world if he took it too far. How much has he done that was really so bad except be rude to some people?

Off the top of my head...Use the TP. BF a palace. Kill his own troops because he would not listen to reason. Allow the sacrifice of a bishop for a queen when he could have taken Lanfear w/o the sacrifice. Allowed Taim to have his way with the BT. Turn his back on innocents starving to death.

I don't remember most of that. The Taim thing is just bad judgment. Lanfear is not his fault. That wasn't him doing evil. The TP, did he know what it was?

[thisguy]

You do realize that he's just a super powered dude, right? I have very little remembrance of the last two books but before that he was a regular dude who HAD to save the world, deal with a bunch of people who wanted to use or kill him and was simultaneously going insane. I think he's handled himself pretty well.

[thisguy]

Ah! He used the true power because of the domination band. He didn't even know what he was grabbing at. I think that's far from evil. He's made mistakes and was going insane. Maybe, if Cadsuane didn't try pushing and ordering the guy around, she would have gotten somewhere.

[thisguy]

And, to be clear, I don't mean a bad path for him but a bad path for the world if he took it too far. How much has he done that was really so bad except be rude to some people?

Off the top of my head...Use the TP. BF a palace. Kill his own troops because he would not listen to reason. Allow the sacrifice of a bishop for a queen when he could have taken Lanfear w/o the sacrifice. Allowed Taim to have his way with the BT. Turn his back on innocents starving to death.

 

Was pretty surpised by the question as the answer is so obvious but thanks for jumping in....

Ah...ya...did not mean to post block you. It's just as you said, pretty obvious.

 

I am not trying to have a go at Rand, but well here is a partial list of the sins Zen Rand refers to in ToM. By cutting himself off from emotions he begins his journey down the Darth Rand path. Starts out small, like allowing one woman to sacrifice herself because he could not harm another women, even though she was trying to kill him (and others).

But, I disagree with your take on this. He didn't want to kill Lanfear because of his emotions. He didn't want to harm women. Most people would look on this as a good thing. The dude's had it rough. I'll have to wait until I'm at book 13 to see about the Palace balefire and almost killing his troops. I really remember very little. The rest, I think people are judging him unfairly. It's not like Cads tried to guide him by caring, she wanted to bully him into doing what's right. Big difference.

[Suttree]

Maybe, if Cadsuane didn't try pushing and ordering the guy around, she would have gotten somewhere.

 

Gotten somewhere? Again it too a lucky break at the end but her plan most certainly got somewhere. Without it the world would already be doomed.

 

As an aside the killing his own troops was in TPoD and was a direct result of his trying to go it all alone.

[thisguy]

Maybe, if Cadsuane didn't try pushing and ordering the guy around, she would have gotten somewhere.

 

Gotten somewhere? Again it too a lucky break at the end but her plan most certainly got somewhere. Without it the world would already be doomed.

Again, I'll have to wait until I'm on that book to comment but I never really thought she helped him. She seemed like another Aes Sedai who thought she knew what was best for him. Aside for Moiraine and a couple of others, they've mostly used him - basically raped him by binding him, stuffed him in a box, lied to him, etc. You think she would have realized she was dealing with someone with little trust left and gone about it differently.