Ebou Dar

[thisguy]

Like I said, not bloody likely. The Seanchan have been one of the main themes of the series since TEOTW when Hawkwing himself was developed and the location of Justice was foreshadowed, along with the 4th Age writing saying 'the great sword of justice defend us'. And then they showed up in TGH, Tuon was introduced by name, and Mat blew the Horn and met Hawkwing (not that Hawkwing paid him any mind aside from asking him to blow it again). RJ said up until a couple of years before he died that he wasn't going to write anything else in the WoT world; he only decided to write the outriggers because he had an idea for something after the Last Battle that would be interesting to write about. It took him many years to come up with such an idea.

 

Mat won't take his place beside Tuon so long as she continues to collar channelers; that's the main bone between them, though I hope he gets raven tattoos so the other types of slavery become important to him, too. We might not see all the damane uncollared before the end of the book, but we'll at least see Tuon make the concession to make the transformation when the Last Battle is done. I can see it happening because she channels, or without it, but it will happen either way.

It just occurred to me, I could see Tuon agreeing to uncollar the damane if Rand kneels to her in front of the crystal throne - to save face and to fulfill Seanchan prophecy. This would go along with his desire to save the women folk.

[Maleshub]

Like I said, not bloody likely. The Seanchan have been one of the main themes of the series since TEOTW when Hawkwing himself was developed and the location of Justice was foreshadowed, along with the 4th Age writing saying 'the great sword of justice defend us'. And then they showed up in TGH, Tuon was introduced by name, and Mat blew the Horn and met Hawkwing (not that Hawkwing paid him any mind aside from asking him to blow it again). RJ said up until a couple of years before he died that he wasn't going to write anything else in the WoT world; he only decided to write the outriggers because he had an idea for something after the Last Battle that would be interesting to write about. It took him many years to come up with such an idea.

 

Mat won't take his place beside Tuon so long as she continues to collar channelers; that's the main bone between them, though I hope he gets raven tattoos so the other types of slavery become important to him, too. We might not see all the damane uncollared before the end of the book, but we'll at least see Tuon make the concession to make the transformation when the Last Battle is done. I can see it happening because she channels, or without it, but it will happen either way.

It just occurred to me, I could see Tuon agreeing to uncollar the damane if Rand kneels to her in front of the crystal throne - to save face and to fulfill Seanchan prophecy. This would go along with his desire to save the women folk.

 

If the first meeting between them is any indication, she wants his unconditional surrender so she could send him off to fight the DO. When their discussion hit the a'dam bump in that meeting, she changed the subject (because she knew they wouldn't agree on anything on the issue) rather than hint at a compromise.

[FarShainMael]

2. Min's viewing of two dead men surrounded by ranks and ranks of Trollocs, in conjunction with a viewing of a smoking pipe. This is widely believed to indicate Talmanes on both counts (his pipe theoretically has a tracer weave set on it by Demandred), though it would have to have something to do with Rand, since she saw it around Rand.

Terez, could you or anyone else provide a link to where this viewing of Min's is discussed? Also, when would Demandred have had the chance to tag Talmanes?

 

When I first saw this viewing, I thought it meant Rand and Moridin, surrounded by Fain's Trollocs. I interpreted the smoking pipe as a "happily ever after" type ending; the LB over, Rand finally enjoying a pipe of tabac again. I'd like to see what evidence people have for the quoted interpretation, though.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/64667-two-dead-men-and-a-smoking-pipe/

[thisguy]

Has anyone considered that the BT "resolution" we see in early aMoL (if there is even going to be one) may not be the final voctory over Taim's faction? What if it just ends up being a heroic escape of Pevara, Androl and some of the loyal contingent, with the bonded wives of the Asha'man outside (who would be used as hostages, otherwise)? The Aes Sedai outside might get involved too, and maybe a huge link of 72, led by Androl, will make a gateway that is able to break through the Dreamspike?

 

The point is, the "resoultion" may be a desperate escape that lands in Merrilor and tells the harrowing tale of the Black Tower being a nest of the Shadow.

Has anyone considered that the BT "resolution" we see in early aMoL (if there is even going to be one) may not be the final voctory over Taim's faction?

 

That is exactly what most of us have said. That these chapters at the start will not be the final resolution of Taim/Black Tower.

I agree. They'll probably be forced to leave Andor and the palace and tower destroyed but the DF Ashaman will flee.

[DrZippy]

http://www.dragonmou...a-smoking-pipe/

Thanks. I had completely forgotten about Talmanes getting the pipe from Murandy. I have trouble believing Murandy as the seat for Demandred, it just seems too small and insignificant. And Talmanes has had almost no interaction with Rand; why would he be involved with a viewing centered on Rand?

[Terez]

http://www.dragonmou...a-smoking-pipe/

Thanks. I had completely forgotten about Talmanes getting the pipe from Murandy. I have trouble believing Murandy as the seat for Demandred, it just seems too small and insignificant.

 

It's a common assumption that I once shared, but in KOD RJ dropped a few subtle clues for Roedred. One was Demandred's scorn for Sammael's need to have every eye on him. So, say you're Demandred, and you're giving orders to Taim as he submits to Rand's amnesty, and then Moridin shows up and diminishes your authority there. Where would you set up your own power base?

 

So, you've got Murandy, a nice, unassuming country. Its capital city is a lurid sinkhole of sin. Just your kind of place. No one is going to come looking for you because no one cares about you. Armies march across your country and no one even bothers to consider asking your permission. No one is worried about what you're going to do. Andor takes a huge slice or your northern lands, and the northern lords and ladies can't do anything about it.

 

So, the one thing that all Murandians have in common is a hatred of Andorans. The border lords might hate them slightly more, but not much really. None of the southern lords have ever bothered to help the northern ones against the Andorans, but what if you can manage to convince them that all of them are threatened? You know from your superior messenger sheep that Rand means Elayne to be Queen of both Andor and Cairhien, and you've got an army of Dragonsworn on your soil made up of mostly Andorans and Cairhienin, with a few Tairens and now a lot of Murandians. Like the Tinkers, they're stealing your children. You pay them to hang out, be a looming threat. They've already marched across Murandy and then back down toward Lugard, eating all your food and making a nuisance of themselves in general. Suddenly all your nobles are very easy to manipulate.

 

It was a clever plan, not one you'd think a wastrel like Roedran could think up. But Talmanes met the man, and he defies his reputation. He has a copy of a book that just so happens to make a convenient excuse for why he all of a sudden became a great general, but the man has it memorized. He's clearly far from an idiot if he has a book memorized. Has Roedran been pretending to be an unambitious idiot all these years? Probably not. Talmanes mentioned in KOD when he reunited with Mat that Roedran had been about to turn on them, but Talmanes was apparently smart enough to get them out of it. Or perhaps Roedred wanted him to think that. Also in KOD, we are reminded about Moiraine's finder weave that she used to track all of the boys in TEOTW. Elayne gives us the details, and notes that metal will hold a finder forever.

 

So you've got all these Murandians, extremely pissed off that the Band got away, and thanks again to your superior messenger sheep, you know that the Band is camped outside Caemlyn. You also learned from your dutiful servants in Caemlyn that there was some angst and betrayal between Elayne and her mercenaries. You might have even set that up yourself, because after all, you've been spying on Andor since LOC. And with the date of the invasion approaching, all of a sudden there are ten thousand mercenaries outside the city. Even if you can't exploit that angst with all of those mercenary bands, you've never had a problem getting your hands on gold.

 

So you've got Mazrim Taim at your beck and call for a brief period which happens to include his first submission to Rand. Taim doesn't have any bright ideas on day one and seems rather put out at the injustice of it, but before long he starts pestering Rand to let him recruit using gateways. He also has the bright idea of building an army loyal to Rand, his own army that he recruited rather than conquered. Do you think Taim came up with that idea? It's possible; he's far from stupid. But I see the hands of the Shadow's great captain in that one, too. The Legion of the Dragon, named after a Biblical zip-folder demon, and camped right outside Caemlyn, on the same side of the city as the Band. Taim has been in charge of recruiting from the beginning, and they took in the remnants of Sammael's most loyal followers in Illian, too.

 

So, why Murandy? When Moridin returns, you've already got one army in the works, and you've probably managed to plant officers, and you've done good work at the Black Tower through Taim. You've been patted on the back for that, but you know you need more if you want to remain at the top. Murandy offers several advantages: 1) Inconspicuous. No one will come for you there. 2) Army that can be unified with a bit of elbow grease. 3) Army that hates Andorans and, thanks to your planning, also has it in for the Band, the army of your most dangerous opponent in the field. There was nowhere else in Randland with those advantages; at the time collusion with Semirhage made it clear that Altara was out, and Lugard suits you better anyway. You're not Sammael; you don't feel the need to have every eye on you. You've got better things to do.

 

And Talmanes has had almost no interaction with Rand; why would he be involved with a viewing centered on Rand?

 

We don't know, but IMO the viewing is just a small might-be-connected detail without much importance due to its vague nature. Perhaps Rand is the other dead man; it could happen, if Rand goes to Caemlyn.

[DrZippy]

long, interesting post.

Your response reminds me just how much I've forgotten from some of the books. I'm at the end of FoH now in a reread, but when I get to the events you mention here, I'll definitely look them over with a more critical eye.

 

You mention a couple things I'm not familiar with/don't understand. I'm still new to the boards and getting up to speed on all the theories. Could you (or anyone) clairify what you mean by:

1. Taim being first directed by Demandred, then Moridin. I'm assuming who is manipulating Taim has been discussed elsewhere, and that discussion is what you're referencing?

2. messanger sheep?

 

The reference to Demandred not needing to be the focus of every eye... I like that a lot. It may explain why we haven't seen him in the books yet. But at the same time, being king of Murandy, even if it's "just" Murandy, is still a place of prominence. Still, the country really hasn't played much of a role in the series yet, which means it may be the source of some unexpected surprise. A very interesting theory.

And Talmanes has had almost no interaction with Rand; why would he be involved with a viewing centered on Rand?

 

We don't know, but IMO the viewing is just a small might-be-connected detail without much importance due to its vague nature. Perhaps Rand is the other dead man; it could happen, if Rand goes to Caemlyn.

In other discussions, we have put a lot of importance on Min's various viewings; I'm uncomfortable dismissing this one. Because it's a viewing centered on Rand, I would guess that either one of the two bodies is his, or he's going to come across that scene, and those bodies are going to be people important to him. If one is Rand, then there are a lot of more promient people for him to be fighting/dying with than Talmanes IMO. If the bodies are other people, then sure, it could be Talmanes and Mat or whoever else.

 

I think of the pipe as a separate viewing, independent of the one involving two bodies surrounded by Trollocs. To me, pipes and smoking has always been associated with being among friends, relaxing, etc. Recall the scene of Mat, Perrin and Thom catching up in the inn in ToM. I am skeptical that a pipe seen around Rand has anything to do with a pipe given to Talmanes, let alone anyone else. I can be convinced otherwise, though.

 

Personally, I don't think Rand will be going to Camelyn.

 

edit: to reflect "thisguy" post below.

[thisguy]

Hey Zippy,

There is some foreshadowing of Rand dying in Caemlyn: when he uses the portal stone and, I believe, when Egwene takes her test for Accepted. I think someone may have mentioned this already. Not sure.

[DrZippy]

Hey Zippy,

There is some foreshadowing of Rand dying in Caemlyn: when he uses the portal stone and, I believe, when Egwene takes her test for Accepted. I think someone may have mentioned this already. Not sure.

Crap, you're right. Thanks for pointing that out.

[thisguy]

Hey Zippy,

There is some foreshadowing of Rand dying in Caemlyn: when he uses the portal stone and, I believe, when Egwene takes her test for Accepted. I think someone may have mentioned this already. Not sure.

Crap, you're right. Thanks for pointing that out.

No worries. I just forgot there was a dark prophecy in book 2. There are a billion things in these books to keep track of ;)

[Terez]

long, interesting post.

Your response reminds me just how much I've forgotten from some of the books. I'm at the end of FoH now in a reread, but when I get to the events you mention here, I'll definitely look them over with a more critical eye.

 

You mention a couple things I'm not familiar with/don't understand. I'm still new to the boards and getting up to speed on all the theories. Could you (or anyone) clairify what you mean by:

1. Taim being first directed by Demandred, then Moridin. I'm assuming who is manipulating Taim has been discussed elsewhere, and that discussion is what you're referencing?

2. messanger sheep?

 

1. We have very few clues about who was behind the Black Tower in the beginning, but later on Kisman makes it clear that Demandred is giving Asha'man orders as well as Moridin. That makes it likely that Demandred was behind the Black Tower at first (along with a few other clues) and other clues make it likely that Taim began reporting more or less directly to Moridin after Moridin appeared (basically in ACOS-TPOD).

 

2. Just a funny quote:

 

"Where is he?" Demandred growled, clenching his fists behind his back. Standing with his feet apart, he was aware that he dominated the room. He always did. Even so, he wished Semirhage or Mesaana were present. Their alliance was delicate—a simple agreement that they would not turn on one another until the others had been eliminated—yet it had held all this time. Working together, they had unbalanced opponent after opponent, toppling many to their deaths or worse. But it was difficult for Semirhage to attend these meetings, and Mesaana had been shy, of late. If she was thinking of ending the alliance. . . . "Al'Thor has been seen in five cities, including that cursed place in the Waste, and a dozen towns since those blind fools—those idiots!– failed in Cairhien. And that only includes the reports we have! The Great Lord only knows what else is crawling toward us by horse, or sheep, or whatever else these savages can find to carry a message."

 

Personally, I don't think Rand will be going to Camelyn. Plus, I don't think anyone* seriously thinks he's going to die there, considering there is no foreshadowing of it and there is a lot of him dying at SG.

 

*I include you, Terez, as a part of "anyone" because I interpreted your suggestion of Rand dying in Camelyn as an offhand comment; a potential way to explain the viewing. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Definitely not offhand. You familiar with the Arthurian Battle of Camlann? This has been expected for a long time, since long before it was clear that the Shadow was concentrating so much energy on Caemlyn. Rand is the Arthur parallel, and there are several Mordred parallels including Demandred, but it's a bit up in the air which one will kill him. There's actually not any real foreshadowing that he will die at Shayol Ghul, and a few things suggest otherwise. He will shed his blood there, but none of the death prophecies are concurrent with the blood-shedding prophecies. In other words, of the four prophecies that mention Rand's death outright, none mention Shayol Ghul or black rock or anything of the sort. Foreshadowing also indicates that both Egwene and Gawyn will be involved in Rand's death (and Gawyn is a nice, hidden Mordred parallel).

[thisguy]

long, interesting post.

Your response reminds me just how much I've forgotten from some of the books. I'm at the end of FoH now in a reread, but when I get to the events you mention here, I'll definitely look them over with a more critical eye.

 

You mention a couple things I'm not familiar with/don't understand. I'm still new to the boards and getting up to speed on all the theories. Could you (or anyone) clairify what you mean by:

1. Taim being first directed by Demandred, then Moridin. I'm assuming who is manipulating Taim has been discussed elsewhere, and that discussion is what you're referencing?

2. messanger sheep?

 

1. We have very few clues about who was behind the Black Tower in the beginning, but later on Kisman makes it clear that Demandred is giving Asha'man orders as well as Moridin. That makes it likely that Demandred was behind the Black Tower at first (along with a few other clues) and other clues make it likely that Taim began reporting more or less directly to Moridin after Moridin appeared (basically in ACOS-TPOD).

 

2. Just a funny quote:

 

"Where is he?" Demandred growled, clenching his fists behind his back. Standing with his feet apart, he was aware that he dominated the room. He always did. Even so, he wished Semirhage or Mesaana were present. Their alliance was delicate—a simple agreement that they would not turn on one another until the others had been eliminated—yet it had held all this time. Working together, they had unbalanced opponent after opponent, toppling many to their deaths or worse. But it was difficult for Semirhage to attend these meetings, and Mesaana had been shy, of late. If she was thinking of ending the alliance. . . . "Al'Thor has been seen in five cities, including that cursed place in the Waste, and a dozen towns since those blind fools—those idiots!– failed in Cairhien. And that only includes the reports we have! The Great Lord only knows what else is crawling toward us by horse, or sheep, or whatever else these savages can find to carry a message."

 

Personally, I don't think Rand will be going to Camelyn. Plus, I don't think anyone* seriously thinks he's going to die there, considering there is no foreshadowing of it and there is a lot of him dying at SG.

 

*I include you, Terez, as a part of "anyone" because I interpreted your suggestion of Rand dying in Camelyn as an offhand comment; a potential way to explain the viewing. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Definitely not offhand. You familiar with the Arthurian Battle of Camlann? This has been expected for a long time, since long before it was clear that the Shadow was concentrating so much energy on Caemlyn. Rand is the Arthur parallel, and there are several Mordred parallels including Demandred, but it's a bit up in the air which one will kill him. There's actually not any real foreshadowing that he will die at Shayol Ghul, and a few things suggest otherwise. He will shed his blood there, but none of the death prophecies are concurrent with the blood-shedding prophecies. In other words, of the four prophecies that mention Rand's death outright, none mention Shayol Ghul or black rock or anything of the sort. Foreshadowing also indicates that both Egwene and Gawyn will be involved in Rand's death (and Gawyn is a nice, hidden Mordred parallel).

 

Not arguing, think you're on to something. I also brought up the battle of Camlann from Arthurian tales when I first joined. My question is, do you think shedding his blood at Shayol Ghul has something to do with sealing the bore?

[Terez]

I think it's likely, yes, but I think it has to occur after his resurrection for it work. In other words, after his connection to Moridin is severed. That would be why he has to die. But the blood-shedding prophecies directly imply that salvation is dependent on the blood-shedding. The dark prophecy at the end of TOM implies that the blood-shedding will bring 'the darkness so beautiful' so it's quite possible there will be two important blood-sheddings.

[thisguy]

I think it's likely, yes, but I think it has to occur after his resurrection for it work. In other words, after his connection to Moridin is severed. That would be why he has to die. But the blood-shedding prophecies directly imply that salvation is dependent on the blood-shedding. The dark prophecy at the end of TOM implies that the blood-shedding will bring 'the darkness so beautiful' so it's quite possible there will be two important blood-sheddings.

 

I think you're right. I look at Ishy, pre death, his wound from Rand wouldn't heal. Gets killed, comes back brand new. I think that Rand needs to die to come back healthy.

 

Thanks.

[DrZippy]

Definitely not offhand. You familiar with the Arthurian Battle of Camlann? This has been expected for a long time, since long before it was clear that the Shadow was concentrating so much energy on Caemlyn. Rand is the Arthur parallel, and there are several Mordred parallels including Demandred, but it's a bit up in the air which one will kill him. There's actually not any real foreshadowing that he will die at Shayol Ghul, and a few things suggest otherwise. He will shed his blood there, but none of the death prophecies are concurrent with the blood-shedding prophecies. In other words, of the four prophecies that mention Rand's death outright, none mention Shayol Ghul or black rock or anything of the sort. Foreshadowing also indicates that both Egwene and Gawyn will be involved in Rand's death (and Gawyn is a nice, hidden Mordred parallel).

Well, crap. That's a damn good catch, and certainly suggests Rand will go to Caemlyn. And if he dies there instead of SG... sigh. I've got more thinking to do.

[FarShainMael]

Hey Zippy,

There is some foreshadowing of Rand dying in Caemlyn: when he uses the portal stone and, I believe, when Egwene takes her test for Accepted. I think someone may have mentioned this already. Not sure.

 

All those Portal Worlds and 'Accepted test' 'deaths' essentially occur because Rand does not have control of the OP in those worlds as he does here. In one he even seems to get the channelling sickness. So I'm thinking that if that's a foreshadowing, it's an inverted one: he is prevented somehow from going to Caemlyn.

 

As for the Arthur-Mordred parallel, I'm of the opinion that if it happens at all, it will involve not Rand, but Mat 'son of battles' and Olver:

 

http://www.dragonmou...caemlyn-battle/

[thisguy]

 

1. We have very few clues about who was behind the Black Tower in the beginning, but later on Kisman makes it clear that Demandred is giving Asha'man orders as well as Moridin. That makes it likely that Demandred was behind the Black Tower at first (along with a few other clues) and other clues make it likely that Taim began reporting more or less directly to Moridin after Moridin appeared (basically in ACOS-TPOD).

 

 

Terez, are you saying that we don't know who actually started the Black Ajah up?

[Suttree]

 

1. We have very few clues about who was behind the Black Tower in the beginning, but later on Kisman makes it clear that Demandred is giving Asha'man orders as well as Moridin. That makes it likely that Demandred was behind the Black Tower at first (along with a few other clues) and other clues make it likely that Taim began reporting more or less directly to Moridin after Moridin appeared (basically in ACOS-TPOD).

 

 

Terez, are you saying that we don't know who actually started the Black Ajah up?

 

Black Ajah? She is saying we don't know who was controlling Taim and giving orders to DF ashaman at first.

[thisguy]

I meant to write Black Tower, excuse me.

[Terez]

1. We have very few clues about who was behind the Black Tower in the beginning, but later on Kisman makes it clear that Demandred is giving Asha'man orders as well as Moridin. That makes it likely that Demandred was behind the Black Tower at first (along with a few other clues) and other clues make it likely that Taim began reporting more or less directly to Moridin after Moridin appeared (basically in ACOS-TPOD).

Terez, are you saying that we don't know who actually started the Black Tower up?

 

Yeah, we're not sure which Forsaken was behind it. And as I said above, Taim definitely showed signs of following orders. However, the Kisman quote makes it clear that Darkfriend Asha'man are taking orders from Demandred, Moridin, and Taim, and it also makes clear that Demandred and Taim are familiar with each other, while Moridin is kind of apart from it all, with no word to even corroborate that he is one of the Chosen. Taim decorating his palace with Moridin's colors suggests he answers directly to Moridin now, but the first time we saw Moridin was ACOS 25. So, if Demandred was behind the Black Tower at first, that explains a lot, including his bit in the epilogue in LOC and a few other clues.

[thisguy]

1. We have very few clues about who was behind the Black Tower in the beginning, but later on Kisman makes it clear that Demandred is giving Asha'man orders as well as Moridin. That makes it likely that Demandred was behind the Black Tower at first (along with a few other clues) and other clues make it likely that Taim began reporting more or less directly to Moridin after Moridin appeared (basically in ACOS-TPOD).

Terez, are you saying that we don't know who actually started the Black Tower up?

 

Yeah, we're not sure which Forsaken was behind it. And as I said above, Taim definitely showed signs of following orders. However, the Kisman quote makes it clear that Darkfriend Asha'man are taking orders from Demandred, Moridin, and Taim, and it also makes clear that Demandred and Taim are familiar with each other, while Moridin is kind of apart from it all, with no word to even corroborate that he is one of the Chosen. Taim decorating his palace with Moridin's colors suggests he answers directly to Moridin now, but the first time we saw Moridin was ACOS 25. So, if Demandred was behind the Black Tower at first, that explains a lot, including his bit in the epilogue in LOC and a few other clues.

 

Thanks. I just passed the first chapter where Rand brings Taim to the farm. Haven't read this in years. So, you believe that Taim was already part of Demandred, or another forsaken's, plot when he first met Rand?

[Terez]

Yes. Part of the reason for that is that he didn't appear to have any idea what to do with what Rand had given him on that first day, and seemed a little flustered at having been stuck with the job. It's only the next time Rand sees him that he starts to come up with bright ideas.

[thisguy]

Yes. Part of the reason for that is that he didn't appear to have any idea what to do with what Rand had given him on that first day, and seemed a little flustered at having been stuck with the job. It's only the next time Rand sees him that he starts to come up with bright ideas.

 

The one thing I always wondered about - and, in my opinion, the most damning bit of early evidence - is that the man had been channeling for 15 years and wasn't insane. You think he had the black wiring in him? Could he?

[Terez]

For one thing, Rand overestimated his age. For another, it's quite possible; many think he was trained by Ishamael before he proclaimed himself.

[Suttree]

Yes. Part of the reason for that is that he didn't appear to have any idea what to do with what Rand had given him on that first day, and seemed a little flustered at having been stuck with the job. It's only the next time Rand sees him that he starts to come up with bright ideas.

 

The one thing I always wondered about - and, in my opinion, the most damning bit of early evidence - is that the man had been channeling for 15 years and wasn't insane. You think he had the black wiring in him? Could he?

 

Taim isn't that old...