Elayne's deal with the seachen

[AlexWeimer]

Ok so i've been going through my first reread. and i'm currently in COT. and i've been wondering if the deal that was made for the bowl of winds sounds completely ridiculous to the rest of you too or if i'm the only one.

 

I mean here is my argument, i'm going to pretend i'm in a simular situation.

 

Ok so i found a bowl that changes the weather its really freaking hot but idk how to use it. However my neighbor does and it turns out it used to be his great grandfathers or what ever right. I would then say hey, buddy fix the weather for me and you can have what I FOUND back. instead its like she is in debt by having them do something that benefits the world and they get to keep the bowl. i don't understand and the more it gets brought up the more i want to punch elayne in the face.

[Roxinos]

The Atha'an Miere (or Sea Folk) are not the Seanchan, but you seem to know this.

 

Anyway, yes, the Super Girls got the short end of the stick on that deal. The Sea Folk are a people whose cultural heritage is dedicated to ocean travel and bargaining. As such, they are tremendously good at bargaining. The Super Girls simply weren't prepared to bargain properly against the Sea Folk, and so, got bullied and tricked into agreeing to everything they agreed to. Was it a bad deal? Yes. Was it Elayne's fault? No.

[Kudzu]

I agree the fact there had to be a bargain was absurd. Fixing the weather should have been reason enough, giving the bowl back the icing on the cake.

 

Ignoring for a second the fact that teaching "wilders" the Power is against Tower law. I don't really see the problem with the bargain itself though unless I'm forgetting some part of it. Wasn't it just that the Aes Sedai would teach the Wind Finders anything they wanted to know? I fail to see how strengthening your allies in the face of Tarmon Gai'don is a bad deal.

[Maleshub]

The bargain was for the White Tower to send 20 Aes Sedai teachers to the Sea Folk for a year to teach their channelers. And send replacements after the year expires. It is noted that the Sea Folk treat foreign teachers slightly better than servants. So, that part of the bargain was very humiliating for the White Tower.

 

The (former) Mistress of the Ships Nesta Din Raes was a woman of considerable willpower. She had Nynaeve and Elayne well under control.

 

By the way, it was Aviendha's idea. She also had the idea of going to Mat to find the Bowl. I don't know if both are good ideas; but at least the second one was.

[Roxinos]

I agree the fact there had to be a bargain was absurd. Fixing the weather should have been reason enough, giving the bowl back the icing on the cake.

 

There didn't have to be a bargain. The Sea Folk just figured they could get more out of it than just the Bowl, so why not? Do you really think they would have refused to help if the Super Girls had been better at the bargaining? Doubtful. They understood the need of its use as much as the Super Girls. They merely used that to their advantage.

 

Ignoring for a second the fact that teaching "wilders" the Power is against Tower law.

 

It's not against Tower law at all. One of the major reasons the Tower wants to train women who can channel is because channeling is dangerous without training. Several times throughout the series we see an Aes Sedai train someone who is not in the Tower (Moiraine teaches Egwene, Edesina and Teslyn teach Bethamin and Seta).

 

I don't really see the problem with the bargain itself though unless I'm forgetting some part of it. Wasn't it just that the Aes Sedai would teach the Wind Finders anything they wanted to know? I fail to see how strengthening your allies in the face of Tarmon Gai'don is a bad deal.

 

Theodril explained this part better than I. The bargain placed the White Tower in a position of subservience to another sovereign body. It effectively weakened their place in the world.

[Kudzu]

I agree the fact there had to be a bargain was absurd. Fixing the weather should have been reason enough, giving the bowl back the icing on the cake.

There didn't have to be a bargain. The Sea Folk just figured they could get more out of it than just the Bowl, so why not? Do you really think they would have refused to help if the Super Girls had been better at the bargaining? Doubtful. They understood the need of its use as much as the Super Girls. They merely used that to their advantage.

 

Alright, I get your point. I guess what I find absurd is that the supergirls let themselves be brow beaten so badly.

 

 

Ignoring for a second the fact that teaching "wilders" the Power is against Tower law.

 

It's not against Tower law at all. One of the major reasons the Tower wants to train women who can channel is because channeling is dangerous without training. Several times throughout the series we see an Aes Sedai train someone who is not in the Tower (Moiraine teaches Egwene, Edesina and Teslyn teach Bethamin and Seta).

 

 

In Verin's POV in the PoD prologue one of the captive sisters assuming Verin had taught the Wise Ones linking accused her of revealing tower secrets and called it treason and rebellion.

 

I don't really see the problem with the bargain itself though unless I'm forgetting some part of it. Wasn't it just that the Aes Sedai would teach the Wind Finders anything they wanted to know? I fail to see how strengthening your allies in the face of Tarmon Gai'don is a bad deal.

 

Theodril explained this part better than I. The bargain placed the White Tower in a position of subservience to another sovereign body. It effectively weakened their place in the world.

 

Like I said, unless I'm forgetting something. I'm very early in tPoD on my re-read and it's been a long time since of read all the books. I knew they'd agreed to teach but had forgotten about the sending 20 teachers bit.

[AlexWeimer]

haha wow i have no idea how i messed that one up. i typed up a lame excuse and decided that it just slipped my mind completely sorry my mistake haha.

 

but yeah i understand they are expert arguers, i just find it quite ridiculous. and i probably wrongfully accused elayne. I was just listening to the scene where she just got back to camlyn and is squabbling with the other sisters. And sense it was from her POV complaining about the deal it just suddenly hit me how much it pissed me off. And any idea involving mat is pretty much a great idea everybody knows that haha :P

 

btw sorry i'm not quoting things in my responses my computer is being dumb.

[Roxinos]

In Verin's POV in the PoD prologue one of the captive sisters assuming Verin had taught the Wise Ones linking accused her of revealing tower secrets and called it treason and rebellion.

 

Yeah. A sister in dire circumstances relative to the Wise Ones freaking out 'cause the Wise Ones know more than she thought they did. At a time when the Tower was split.

 

Hyperbole isn't covered by the First Oath. That's all it was. Hyperbole.

 

At no point in Edesina and Teslyn's decision to teach Bethamin and Seta did they think "this is a breech of Tower law." At no point in Egwene's berating the Super Girls for the horrible bargain did she mention that it was against Tower law. And Moiraine certainly would not have begun teaching Egwene on her own if it were against Tower law. Egwene would have begun to channel eventually, but she hadn't begun to channel yet. Moiraine actually had to force a resonance out of Egwene to get her to channel her first bit. If it were against Tower law, it seems a rather unnecessary breech of the law when she knows that Egwene is going to be going to the White Tower anyway.

[TristanWebb]

Teaching people how to hold Aes Sedai is probably what she was getting at, rather than just teaching at all. Moiraine, Suian and all the sisters on the barge taught Egwene and Nyneve before they were enrolled after all.

[Kudzu]

In Verin's POV in the PoD prologue one of the captive sisters assuming Verin had taught the Wise Ones linking accused her of revealing tower secrets and called it treason and rebellion.

 

Yeah. A sister in dire circumstances relative to the Wise Ones freaking out 'cause the Wise Ones know more than she thought they did. At a time when the Tower was split.

 

Hyperbole isn't covered by the First Oath. That's all it was. Hyperbole.

 

At no point in Edesina and Teslyn's decision to teach Bethamin and Seta did they think "this is a breech of Tower law." At no point in Egwene's berating the Super Girls for the horrible bargain did she mention that it was against Tower law. And Moiraine certainly would not have begun teaching Egwene on her own if it were against Tower law. Egwene would have begun to channel eventually, but she hadn't begun to channel yet. Moiraine actually had to force a resonance out of Egwene to get her to channel her first bit. If it were against Tower law, it seems a rather unnecessary breech of the law when she knows that Egwene is going to be going to the White Tower anyway.

 

You may be right. I don't recall what Bethamin and Seta were taught, they are both ex Sul'dam's right?

 

I just figured there is a difference in how the tower viewed teaching a girl who is new to the power some low level stuff so they don't kill themselves and teaching completely separate channeling societies advanced techniques. Maybe not Tower law, but I'm sure it would be frowned upon.

 

Besides I don't see why hyperbole shouldn't be covered by the 1st Oath. "I vow to speak no word that is not true... unless I'm stressed out and am exaggerating for effect" ?

[Barid Bel Medar]

INTERVIEW: Apr 5th, 1996

 

Balticon XXX - Bill Garrett (Paraphrased)

 

 

 

 

 

ROBERT JORDAN

 

The Aes Sedai who beat Rand in Lord of Chaos did not necessarily violate the Three Oaths. Jordan explained that the Three Oaths are bound by literal intent and perception. He said that the Aes Sedai could have considered the beatings a just punishment rather than the use of a weapon. He also suggested that not everything that harms you need be considered a weapon. I think he gave the example of a whip used lightly not considered a weapon, versus a whip used to flay skin being considered a weapon. On the subject of the first Oath ("to speak no word that is untrue"), Jordan said that Aes Sedai can say something they believe to be true or something they don't mean literally. As an example of the latter, an Aes Sedai can employ hyperbole and say something like, "I'm going to tie your ears over your head," when she means to do no such thing.

 

Those Aes Sedai considered the act to be treasonous and rebellious, but that does not mean it is Tower Law. Egwene often thinks about Aes Sedai interpretation of Tower Law, and how they twist it to suit themselves. Like any law in the "real world". But there is no law that states "It is treason to teach any channellers outside the White Tower."

[Roxinos]

You may be right. I don't recall what Bethamin and Seta were taught, they are both ex Sul'dam's right?

 

They were taught precisely what Egwene was taught. How to channel well enough that they are not a danger to themselves and others. But this segues nicely into the next thing you said:

 

I just figured there is a difference in how the tower viewed teaching a girl who is new to the power some low level stuff so they don't kill themselves and teaching completely separate channeling societies advanced techniques. Maybe not Tower law, but I'm sure it would be frowned upon.

 

It's most definitely frowned upon. As evidenced by the captured sister calling Verin a traitor and a rebel for teaching the Wise Ones.

 

Besides I don't see why hyperbole shouldn't be covered by the 1st Oath. "I vow to speak no word that is not true... unless I'm stressed out and am exaggerating for effect" ?

 

Barid answered this better than I would have.

[TootThatHorn]

to be honest i think it was a good thing for the tower that the girls messed up so bad. theyve been running this exclusive club for a very long time, to the point that many of the channelers they should have had are instead leaving themselves unkown, hiding on ships, living in the three-fold land, etc. and its been a really long time since ive read alot of the books but isnt part of the bargain that if someone wants to go to the tower from the sea folk then they have to be allowed to? or something along those lines. but really the point being is that if the tower tries to be this exclusive club of channelers and no one else is allowed to have one, then no one will want to join, so its much better off for them to simply work in conjunction instead, it gains them access to more teachings anyways, such as handling weather better, and it gives them much better political ties that they wouldnt have had otherwise.

[Roxinos]

to be honest i think it was a good thing for the tower that the girls messed up so bad. theyve been running this exclusive club for a very long time, to the point that many of the channelers they should have had are instead leaving themselves unkown, hiding on ships, living in the three-fold land, etc.

 

This is mainly due to the Tower's own hubris and stupidity. They assumed they had such a hold on the world that everyone would naturally send women their way, and they are so full of themselves that they never imagined organizations rising up around the ability to channel without the Tower learning of it. Those two factors combine to mean that the Tower never sent out emissaries to actively recruit from the various nations (Aiel and Sea Folk included).

 

But rest assured, if the Aes Sedai in the Tower had sent emissaries to the Sea Folk and Aiel periodically to test for the ability to channel, there would be no Wise Ones and Windfinders.

 

and its been a really long time since ive read alot of the books but isnt part of the bargain that if someone wants to go to the tower from the sea folk then they have to be allowed to? or something along those lines.

 

The bargain essentailly assured the Windfinder's independence from the Tower. It ensured that they would not be bullied into joining the White Tower. And that the complete knowledge of the White Tower would be theirs to access at will. They are allowed to enter the White Tower and be treated as guests. Just clarifying, you seem to remember a bit, but the way you phrased it sounds more like if any Atha'an Miere wishes to enter the Novice book they can. But that's always been the case (any Sea Folk woman can travel to Tar Valon and be tested; hell, any woman at all can travel to Tar Valon and be tested -- of course, only recently would a woman older than about 25 be allowed to enter the Novice book).

 

but really the point being is that if the tower tries to be this exclusive club of channelers and no one else is allowed to have one, then no one will want to join, so its much better off for them to simply work in conjunction instead, it gains them access to more teachings anyways, such as handling weather better, and it gives them much better political ties that they wouldnt have had otherwise.

 

Yep. But the Aes Sedai are stupid and don't see it that way. They think primarily of the Tower. They don't think of the Power. They don't think of learning. They don't think of helping people or benefiting society in the long run. They think of what's best for the Tower as a political power. Nynaeve said it best after her testing for the shawl:

 

"It would not be good for them to determine that you would place anything before the White Tower[," Egwene said.]

 

"I wonder if," Nynaeve said, "we sometimes put the White Tower--as an institution--before the people we serve. I wonder if we let it become a goal in itself, instead of a means to help us achieve greater goals."

 

"Devotion is important, Nynaeve. The White Tower protects and guides the world."

 

"And yet, so many of us do it without families," Nynaeve said. "Without love, without passion beyond our own particular interests. So even while we try to guide the world, we separate ourselves from it. We risk arrogance, Egwene. We always assume we know best, but risk making ourselves unable to fathom the people we claim to serve."

 

And she's completely, 100% right on every count. That's why it's a bad bargain. Because it turns the Tower from the only culturally known organization of women who can channel -- thereby being naturally defined as the most powerful organization in the world -- to merely one of several organizations.

 

The best analogy I can think of is the Prussian princes effectively demanding the sovereignty of their own land from the Holy See during the Protestant Reformation (and the princes won their sovereignty with the Peace of Augsburg, and all parties were forced to recognize it with the Peace of Westphalia). It can be said to have strengthened Europe as a whole, but the Protestant Reformation devastated the political power of the Catholic Church (leading to the Counter-Reformation).

[Suttree]

Can someone change the title of this thread? Deal with the "seachen"?!?!

[AlexWeimer]

Can someone change the title of this thread? Deal with the "seachen"?!?!

i would if i could >-<

[Maleshub]

Can someone change the title of this thread? Deal with the "seachen"?!?!

 

Just read the word as "sea - chen." It makes more sense that way