Rand's Death... [living through dying]

[yoniy0]

They didn't need the encouragement. Hawkwing (there's a limit! I won't use abbreviations for everything. What's next, MF? ) practically introduced himself by saying "it takes more than bravery to bind a man to the Horn", so Hurin realizes that. I just think he needed a pat on the back. To use the fact that Hawkwing didn't divulge more information as indication that he had some, well, that just feels too convoluted.

[FarShainMael]

MF? I fear you have lost me At least HW's in context

 

Yes, Hurin knows it does need more than bravery, that's not what I meant. I'm thinking about how much 'hero potential' HW ( ) sees at that moment in Hurin, as against how much he already knows about him - which I grant is an unknown quantity.

 

(BTW, what with this and the thread referenced in my post #23 above, is there enough material worth splitting off into a new 'Is Rand a Hero of the Horn or not' thread?)

[yoniy0]

I don't know, it seems like natural evolution from the premise of this topic, so...

If anyone complains that we're jacking the thread, I will certainly reconsider.

 

PS I was trying to exaggerate the absurdity by abbreviating Min's name

[FarShainMael]

[Suttree]

]As I said before, he recognised Hurin, who isn't a HotH.(see http://www.dragonmou...n/#entry2253814 )

 

No he doesn't, why would you say that?

 

Edit: I see Yoniy0 already addressed it. Your explanation doesn't fly whatsoever. It is very obvious this passage is showing us Rand is a Hero.

[FarShainMael]

]As I said before, he recognised Hurin, who isn't a HotH.(see http://www.dragonmou...n/#entry2253814 )

 

No he doesn't, why would you say that?

 

Edit: I see Yoniy0 already addressed it. Your explanation doesn't fly whatsoever. It is very obvious this passage is showing us Rand is a Hero.

 

I've already disagreed, in my post #15 on the previous page of this thread.

[Suttree]

]As I said before, he recognised Hurin, who isn't a HotH.(see http://www.dragonmou...n/#entry2253814 )

 

No he doesn't, why would you say that?

 

Edit: I see Yoniy0 already addressed it. Your explanation doesn't fly whatsoever. It is very obvious this passage is showing us Rand is a Hero.

 

I've already disagreed, in my post #15 on the previous page of this thread.

 

Realize that, but the part about Hurin is clearly false. He doesn't call him by name, nor did he know him.

 

As for the rest, the scene is fairly straight forward. Also not sure why no one has brought it up but there is also this...

 

Interview: Oct 22nd, 1998

 

TPOD Signing Report - Pam Basham (Paraphrased)

Pam Basham

Regarding the Dragon and the Dragon Reborn (and Graendal's thoughts about Ishamael's musings):

"Is this soul born in any other Age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as the Dragon/the Dragon Reborn?"

Robert Jordan

This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other Ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age.

Pam Basham

In the course of this answer, he related this to why Hawkwing calls Rand "Lews Therin" at Falme—because Hawkwing recognizes this soul. This didn't really tell me why he specifically calls him "Lews Therin", but apparently they've been hangin' together in Tel'aran'rhiod and the etiquette there is to call each other by the name of your last incarnation. (My interpretation.)

[FarShainMael]

Fine, RJ has spoken.

 

ETA: But he also said this, from later on in that interview:

 

Q: "Then what happens if the Dragon and the banner are on opposite sides of the conflict from whoever sounds the horn?"

 

A: "Then we get a [rift] in the Pattern." [1](This elicited a _pronounced_ Startled Moment from Harriet, which I took at the time to express the same reaction as me--"A *WHAT*?!?"--but which Kevin told me later he interpreted to be more along the lines of "I can't believe you're telling them that!" It could, of course, mean something entirely different.)

 

At this point, part of my mind was running wild down paths about the Dark One and potential entrances into the Pattern, while the rest of it remained stunned, frozen, in absolute denial: "A _WHAT_?!?"

 

I remain steadfastly in denial about this one. Oh, sure. He *did* say it, and if it becomes relevant, he'll work it in, no doubt. But I firmly believe he Made This Up. If the DO was aware of this, it seems to me that he'd be working a _lot_ harder on making this happen, since it would seem to represent the equivalent of a serious "crack in the door to the Pattern." It's so much less work than using up all your main players (Chosen) in inefficient, conflicting plots and setting up Rand for "easily escapable situations involving an overly elaborate and exotic Death." [2]

 

[1] I'm not certain if this is the exact word he used. It may have been "schism" or "breach," but it was definitely a word expressing the concept of a forced opening/rupture.

 

Something very wrong here..

[UncleButcher1980]

I thought I'd tweet Brandon and ask him whether Rand is a Hero of the Horn. He replied. His answer was...wait for it...RAFO.

[FarShainMael]

 

(I should add that's a sort of... helpless.. ruefully amused laugh.. but we don't have a smiley for that.. )

[FarShainMael]

Further to the above:

 

"Then what happens if the Dragon and the banner are on opposite sides of

the conflict from whoever sounds the horn?"

 

"Then we get a [rift] in the Pattern."

 

The Prophecy of the Horn says (TGH5):

 

'Let whosoever sounds me think not of glory, but only of salvation.'

[Suttree]

I thought I'd tweet Brandon and ask him whether Rand is a Hero of the Horn. He replied. His answer was...wait for it...RAFO.

 

RJ has already said that he is a HotH. End of.

 

The quote above doesn't call that in to question in the slightest.

[FarShainMael]

I thought I'd tweet Brandon and ask him whether Rand is a Hero of the Horn. He replied. His answer was...wait for it...RAFO.

 

RJ has already said that he is a HotH. End of.

 

The quote above doesn't call that in to question in the slightest.

 

We have two things here: a transcript of a conversation with RJ; and a direct contact with BS.

 

Are we to assume that the man entrusted with ending the series doesn't know what he's talking about?

 

Or are we to assume that the conversation with RJ was transcribed incorrectly or incompletely?

 

UncleButcher, could you forward the exact tweet please?

[Suttree]

I thought I'd tweet Brandon and ask him whether Rand is a Hero of the Horn. He replied. His answer was...wait for it...RAFO.

 

RJ has already said that he is a HotH. End of.

 

The quote above doesn't call that in to question in the slightest.

 

We have two things here: a transcript of a conversation with RJ; and a direct contact with BS.

 

Are we to assume that the man entrusted with ending the series doesn't know what he's talking about?

 

Or are we to assume that the conversation with RJ was transcribed incorrectly or incompletely?

 

UncleButcher, could you forward the exact tweet please?

 

Brandon gave a RAFO on a tweet. He likely was unaware of the first interview, which just so happens to support all the evidence available in text. In the quote I provided Jordan went so far as to say Hawkwing recognized the soul of LTT specificlly because he is a HoTH. I admire your tenacity FSM but it truly is a bit much in this case.

[FarShainMael]

That part of the conversation was not transcribed verbatim. We only have what Pam thought RJ was saying.

 

BS may indeed not have been aware of that interview; but he DOES have access to all RJ's notes.

[Suttree]

Please delete.

[Suttree]

Nothing Brandon said disputes or calls RJ's answer into question in the slightest! It was just a RAFO for god's sakes. Not to mention their are various instances of BS not being aware of previous interviews. To suggest his answer would count more than RJ stating something flat out is absurd. It would be near impossible to get "This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills." wrong.

 

That part of the conversation was not transcribed verbatim. We only have what Pam thought RJ was saying.

 

No her interpretation only relates to the last part. The first in which it says...

 

In the course of this answer, he related this to why Hawkwing calls Rand "Lews Therin" at Falme—because Hawkwing recognizes this soul.

 

is part of the answer. It is all so glaringly obvious when combined with text, I'm truly astonished we are having this conversation.

[UncleButcher1980]

UncleButcher, could you forward the exact tweet please?

 

https://twitter.com/...752804902219776

 

The plot thickens...or not.

 

I just assumed he wasn't aware of the Robert Jordan quote, he can't know everything which I guess is why he MAFO's some stuff. Perhaps I should have said in the tweet that RJ had as good as answered the question already but he may have thought I was pulling a fast one.

 

p.s If my spelling is awful that's because Google's spellchecker doesn't seem to work anymore with Dragonmount and I'm illiterate.

[LoLPoR]

I think it's obvious that Rand is a HotH since Hawkwing recognized him. Also if anyones argument is that Lews Therin didn't show up when the horn was blown it should also be obvious that his spirit can't be summoned by the horn since it resides in Rand's body. Death is no bar to it's call but you can't summon someone who isn't dead, ergo since Rand is Lews Therin the horn can't summon him as it would cause some kind of paradox by having the same soul residing in multiple places at the same time. Oh and if Rand had turned to the Dark Side of the Source the heroes could still have followed the dragon on the side of evil.

[mlva103]

One other thing to point out when it was sounded they marched behind the dragon banner. The book almost made it sound like you have to have the banner to lead to heros into battle.

[Terez]

UncleButcher, could you forward the exact tweet please?

 

https://twitter.com/...752804902219776

 

The plot thickens...or not.

 

I just assumed he wasn't aware of the Robert Jordan quote, he can't know everything which I guess is why he MAFO's some stuff. Perhaps I should have said in the tweet that RJ had as good as answered the question already but he may have thought I was pulling a fast one.

 

p.s If my spelling is awful that's because Google's spellchecker doesn't seem to work anymore with Dragonmount and I'm illiterate.

 

This is Brandon saying RAFO, no really Read And Find Out because it's going to be in the book. He told Luckers he had to do a lot of reading up on the Horn and the heroes for AMOL. Also, there is no reason whatsoever to doubt Pam's report in this particular case.

[Azrael Maravaile]

I've always viewed the heroes as tied to the wheel and the pattern, not to the horn. I see it like a fight on a baseball field, the horn just clears the bench so to speak, but even if the fight never happened the players are going back and forth as it becomes their turn to get on the field.

[kght22]

<derail>

if i read anymore pam basham i think i might sick up.

everything i have read with her on this thread feels like a rollercoaster

it starts out slow, with the little tick, tick tick, tick tick, as the cars move up to the top

then boom, 2 seconds on the other side

its loke ooh? woah!.

WOAAH.

wow.

</derail> <nothing happened> i didn't say anything </nothing happened>

[kght22]

oh, and whoever pam is, she scares the crap out of me, i dont like that roller coaster. but i also used to cry when my uncle swung me around by my feet, my brothers and cousins loved it.

[FarShainMael]

But why 'RAFO' if it's already clear?

 

OK, we've all got our own opinions on this, we'll find out next January.

 

ETA for clarity:Let me state my position on Rand and T'A'R.

 

I have speculated elsewhere that the Dragonsoul may indeed dwell in T'A'R between incarnations. If so, he may indeed be called a Hero. I do not, however, think he can be tied to the Horn in the same way that Hawkwing and co are. Consider Siuan's words in TGH as she contemplated the Horn:

"The Horn of Valere, made to call dead heroes back from the grave. And prophecy said it would only be found just in time for the Last Battle."

With the Last Battle imminent, the Dragonsoul must already be incarnate, and therefore will not need to be summoned by the Horn.Note that RJ says, as reported by Pam, that Rand is 'one of the Heroes'. If she got that right, the word 'Hero' may have a wider meaning than just those bound to the Horn, but to anyone worthy of staying in T'A'R. For instance, consider Einstein. Can you see him with a sword? He'd be a different kind of Hero.

 

This keeps losing paragraph breaks. Sorry.