Unknown Ta'veren?

[Edynol]

I was just reading the interview DB and found a really detailed biography about Cadsuane from RJ. http://www.theorylan...vmain.php?i=652

 

Cadsuane Melaidhrin was born in 705 NE in the city-state of Far Madding. At the age of fifteen, she went to the White Tower. There she spent six years as a novice and five years as Accepted. She might have moved faster as novice and Accepted—in fact almost certainly should have—but she was noted for both her stubbornness and her pride (read arrogance). At age 26, she was raised Aes Sedai and chose the Green Ajah.

 

Cadsuane was very strong in the One Power; for many years she served as the gauge by which every incoming novice was judged. In the last thousand years, no one had matched her and few had come close. Certainly no one in that time had exceeded her. Not even with her full strength yet, she was, on the very day she attained the shawl, at the pinnacle of the Aes Sedai social hierarchy.

 

She stood about 5'5" tall and was neither slender nor stout. She was not pretty, but she was strikingly handsome with a fair complexion. She had dark eyes, which some people occasionally mistook for black, especially when she was focused on them in an unpleasant fashion. Her hair became iron-gray, and she wore it in a bun on top of her head; the bun was decorated with small dangling golden ornaments, stars and moons and birds and fish. These hair ornaments were considered something of a trademark because she had worn them for as long as anyone could remember. For many sisters, the fact that she had was just one more indication of how set in her ways she was; they thought Cadsuane would never change, could never change. Of course, that was far from true; Cadsuane was remarkably adaptable, as befits someone who survived as long as she.

 

Cadsuane was considered by many to be a second Caraighan, although unlike Caraighin, she always refused offices. She preferred the field, so to speak; adventures were her bag. It was said that Cadsuane went through more Warders than most sisters have shoes; she didn’t have all that many, since she was as vulnerable to the effects of a Warder’s death as anyone else. Later in life, she refused to take another Warder because she felt that at her age, bonding a Warder would not be fair to the man.

 

Cadsuane first refused to be raised a Sitter in 846 NE; she reportedly did so a second time as well, though even one refusal was unheard of. She refused to be raised head of the Green Ajah in 862 NE, another thing that was unheard of. She was said to have vanished from the Tower for ten years (from roughly 890 NE to 900 NE) when she learned that the Hall intended to raise her Amyrlin after Sereille Bagand. She retired to northern Ghealdan about twenty-five years before the Aiel War, but came out of retirement, with her two surviving Warders, for that conflict. Soon after the Aiel War ended, she returned to her rustication. She claimed to have been raising roses when Logain appeared. His appearance drew her out of retirement again, but she was not interested in escorting him to Tar Valon and decided to wander a bit. Then Mazrim Taim rose up, and she headed for Saldaea as fast as she could ride.

 

When Siuan Sanche and Moiraine Damodred had reason to research Cadsuane because of their encounter with her shortly after reaching the shawl, they found many stories regarding Cadsuane. All of the ones that they were able to trace down turned out to be true, and in some cases the truth was more than the story. They were not able to follow or confirm all of the stories, of course.

 

One of the most prevalent Cadsuane stories was that she had once physically assaulted an Amyrlin Seat. Since physically assaulting any sister is a serious offense—and an Amyrlin even more so—the fact that Cadsuane apparently escaped any punishment at all, and that the tale is vague about which Amyrlin it was supposed to be, made most everyone think this story was false. It wasn’t; it was the method Cadsuane used to turn Myriam Copan from a weak Amyrlin to a strong one in 758 NE. Myriam was thought to have gone on a two-month retreat by herself, but she had, in fact, been all but kidnaped by Cadsuane. Turning Myriam around involved, among other things, turning her upside down at least once. Although Myriam certainly had reason to keep the events of those two months secret (and was able to make a statement which seemed to deny that Cadsuane had assaulted her), it is the basis of the tale that Cadsuane once physically assaulted an Amyrlin.

 

Another story said that long ago she had removed a sitting king from his palace and taken him to Tar Valon to be gentled. In truth, Cadsuane had “a nose” for men who can channel. She faced more of them than any other sister living; she herself said more than any two Reds, maybe more than any ten. That seems to indicate at least twenty of them by that time, maybe more. She brought more of them to Tar Valon than any other sister. Of these, she never had to kill one, either because she could not capture him or because he was trying to escape. These men have ranged over the years from farmboys to nobles to the king of Tarabon, but one and all, they made much better adjustments to their fate than is considered normal. They eventually died short of a normal span, but they lived considerably longer than usual. And that King of Tarabon: he had to be winkled out of his palace, avoiding his army, which sought to rescue him. She carried him all the way to Tar Valon for gentling by herself, though pursued by his army that refused to believe that he was what he was.

 

It was also said that she kidnaped a King of Arad Doman and a Queen of Saldaea. After she released them, a war that had seemed inevitable simply faded away. She did actually spank or switch three reigning kings and four queens, though the facts of these are hidden in rumor.

 

Cadsuane is alleged to have once single-handedly stopped a coup in the White Tower. This did happen, though no one seems to know or agree on when. The true story: Cadsuane and Sereille Bagand did not get on with each other. In fact, they could not stand one another. Each was the sort of woman who dominated a room—or for that matter, a city!—by simply entering, and they struck sparks at every meeting. Despite her dislike for Sereille, though, Cadsuane uncovered a plot to overthrow Sereille and crushed it. The plotters thought she would be eager to join them, but she dragged the weeping ringleaders to Sereille and made them throw themselves on Sereille’s rather small mercies. Sereille was not particularly pleased to have been saved—the plot was well laid out and ready to leap off—by one she so disliked.

 

She had a reputation for standing White Tower custom on its head, twisting it as she chose, and even violating it outright, as in her frank speech about age, her direct questions and refusals to accept oblique answers, and her interference in the actions of other sisters. The same could be said of her regarding Tower law, for that matter. She had a reputation for taking direct action, even to the point of violence, slapping faces, boxing ears, and more (especially when faced with what she considered stupidity), with high as often as low, or rather, more often. She also had a reputation for not caring whether she dented somebody’s pride, if she thought it necessary.

 

There are the usual tales expected of a Green, only more of them. Riots suppressed and wars stopped single-handedly; rulers steadied on their thrones, or pulled from them, sometimes toppled openly and sometimes more subtly (toppling rulers was something Aes Sedai had not really done much of in the last thousand years, but Cadsuane seemed in many ways a throwback). Rescuing people carried into the Blight or kidnaped by dangerous bands of Darkfriends, breaking up murderous rings of Darkfriends plaguing villages and towns, and exposing powerful Darkfriends who tried to kill her to protect themselves. There are dozens, even hundreds, of improbable and sometimes seemingly impossible tales.

 

Some of these are not so much tales about her as an impression, a belief: Cadsuane will do what she intends to do, and no one can stop her: not a king or a queen, not an Amyrlin—not even the Dark One himself, some claimed. And when Rand al’Thor arose to power as the Dragon Reborn, Cadsuane once again chose to take part in directing the events of the world.

 

After reading this, I can't help but think that Cadsuane was once a ta'veren, though she isn't anymore. What do yall think?

[Gabriel Kross]

I'd say no, Siuane would have seen it in New Spring... I'd say she is more like Verin, who made the most of situations but the Far Madding way of life really influenced Cadsuane more than Verin

[Suttree]

Is Cads considered a major character?

 

 

 

Interview: Jan 21st, 2006

 

Robert Jordan's Blog: IT'S BEEN AWHILE (Verbatim)

Robert Jordan

 

For ben, of course women can be ta'veren. None of the major female characters in the books is ta'veren, though. The Wheel doesn't cast ta'veren around indiscriminately. There has to be a specific reason or need. (I tossed in the "major" just to leave you something to argue about.)

[bigdoug1971]

I'd have to say no as well. It's possible to lead a fascinating life without having to be Ta'veren. Nyneave isn't Ta'veren and she helped cleanse Saidin. Egwene became Amyrlin before her 20th birthday. Verin single handedly exposed the Black Ajah. I happen to love Cadsuane and she is one of my very favorite characters in the books. But I disagree with her being Ta'veren at all.

I did enjoy reading her history that you posted here!!

[Edynol]

When Siuan met Cad, that was way after she did all those deeds. Remember, one is not always ta'veren, they are only ta'veren when the Wheel needs them to be. remember Cadsuane retired and didn't come back out until the Aiel War, which was when Mo and Siuan first joined the Tower. So when Siuan met Cad, she was no longer ta'veren. And during the time of the books, Cad isn't ta'veren. RJ never said any of the other major characters had never been ta'veren, just that they weren't at this time. And it also depends on who he sees as a 'major' character. I don't concider her a major character. An important character, yes, but not a major one. For me, the list of major characters ends at Birggitte, with people like Cadsuane, Amys, and Silviana right below as important characters.

 

@Bigdoug - Thanks! And your points are valid, others have done a lot without being ta'veren. And while I agree that Cad's accomplishments aren't nearly as major as cleansing saidin, infiltrating the BA and bringing them down, curing severing, etc., what makes me think she could have been ta'veren was the sheer number of impacts she has had. She has done more than most any two amyrlins combined. Now I know a lot of those are based of her skill and a little luck, but all that can only take you so far. And for her to do all these things with little to no aid, there had to be some pattern bending somewhere in there.

[Smittyphi]

I think their would have been special mention if Cads was or had ever been ta'veren. Ta'veren is a corrective measure on the wheel and their hasn't been a need since the last one until now. Guaire Amalasan, a false dragon, had acquired so many followers that a ta'veren was needed to check him, hence Hawkwing becoming ta'veren.

 

The common people know about the different people who were ta'veren in the past. Only Aes Sedai and maybe some of the older monarchs would know about Cads.

 

Known Ta'veren

 

Lew Therin - Sealed the dark one

Artur Hawkwing - Stopped the false dragon and united Randland

Mabriam En Shereed - Compact of the Ten Nations, which lasted 800 years.

 

And then their is Cads - Bullied Monarchs and other Aes Sedai. Hardly ta'veren material.

[Edynol]

So a king, who already has an army loyal to him, and who could eventually proclaim himself a Dragon and gain even more, wouldn't have caused major damage? Perhaps the pattern acted early on this one when it sent Cadsuane. And it never came up probably because no one ever asked. It was never mentioned Birggitte or any of the other heroes aside from Hawkwing were ever ta'veren until RJ said so in an interview.

[Smittyphi]

Heroes of the horn weren't necessarily ta'veren. Birgitte was never ta'veren.

[Suttree]

And then their is Cads - Bullied Monarchs and other Aes Sedai. Hardly ta'veren material.

 

Even considering it is a gross understatement, this made me LOL.

[Edynol]

Can you provide a link to that? I remember reading somewhere that she had been ta'veren, I just can't find it. But I never saw anything saying she wasn't.

 

Also, bullying rulers and Aes Sedai isn't ta'veren material? I missed that edit. lol. I think you are being sarcastic. You are right? Cause if not, have you met the main character of the book? Have ya met Mat?

[Thrasymachus]

It's a possibility, but so what? Given the nature of ta'veren, that they are those threads around which at least some other threads are woven for a time, then there's got to be minor ta'veren popping up and then no longer being ta'veren all over the place as the Wheel weaves, in ways that may appear to be happenstance. They may not even be ta'veren strongly enough for Suian to see a glow around them, or retain their ta'veren-ness long enough for it to be noticed in other ways. Only the really major ta'veren are gonna be noticed by those without a Talent for seeing them, and even with the Talent, the more strongly ta'veren "glow" brighter to those who can see them than the less strongly ta'veren. Presumably, someone who was very weakly ta'veren could go unnoticed even by someone with a Talent for seeing them.

 

Moreover, Cadsuane doesn't really need to be ta'veren to get other's threads to weave themselves around her. She'd just threaten 'em till they did it on their own anyway.

 

Also, as a kind of nitpick, I don't think we know for sure whether Lews Therin was ta'veren or not. It seems likely, but again, assuming he was or that he wasn't doesn't change the story or add or subtract anything meaningful about it.

[Smittyphi]

I never read or saw it stated where she was ta'veren. I am assuming that she isn't as it never has been stated.

 

No, bullying rulers isn't ta'veren material. Influencing them is. Bullying was a byproduct of Dark Rand. Perrin never bullied Alliandre. Ta'veren is influence rather than bullying.

 

Mat bully someone? Hah. All he wanted to do before getting hitched is dice and play with tavern maids.

 

No that wasn't sarcasm with Cads. She speaks the truth but twists it to fit her own needs, not ta'veren or pattern needs.

 

Thradsymachus, check out Terez's interview database. LTT was ta'veren.

[Suttree]

I never read or saw it stated where she was ta'veren. I am assuming that she isn't as it never has been stated.

 

No, bullying rulers isn't ta'veren material. Influencing them is. Bullying was a byproduct of Dark Rand. Perrin never bullied Alliandre. Ta'veren is influence rather than bullying.

 

Mat bully someone? Hah. All he wanted to do before getting hitched is dice and play with tavern maids.

 

No that wasn't sarcasm with Cads. She speaks the truth but twists it to fit her own needs, not ta'veren or pattern needs.

 

Per RJ in his notes Cads is a "remarkably adaptable" woman. This belief that all she does is bully is grossly oversimplifying the matter. Luckers had a good post on this some time back...

 

Cadsuane does force people to her view through games, and physical assault, it's true. She'll also use reason, when reason works best, will open up, if the exchange of confidences is what will help her mission, and countless other things. She is, as Jordan stated in his notes on her, remarkbly adaptable.

 

The one thing I would disagree on is that distinction you made--that 'at least Rand had some justification'--what justification? Rand's excesses have rarely ever really served a purpose, so I can presume that the justification you claim for him stems from what he is supposedly entitled to as the Dragon? Meh.

 

Cadsuane at least had a mission. She needed to stabalize Rand, and help him mature so that he could bear the weight of his responsibility. Entitlement is a poor justification for anything, but at least Cadsuane had the 'Ends justify the Means' working for her.

 

And that is worth remembering. Cadsuane never just throws her weight around--she always, always has a specific reason and a specific intention. She is not just, as you stated, being top dog in order to be top dog. She's being top dog to get shit done.

[Edynol]

Rand didn't really talk to many monarchs, most of the cities he conquered were being controlled by the Forsaken. And he definitely bullies Aes Sedai before he became dark Rand. And so did Mat. Remember how he took one and spanked her? And I don't know about you, but kidnapping someone against their will seems like bullying to me. I know Perrin has never bullied anyone, but I'm not talking about him.

[Thrasymachus]

If you'd care to provide the quote from there, I'd be very happy. I went right through the database looking through the tags for both Lews Therin and ta'veren and didn't find a single instance where Lews Therin was even implicitly identified as ta'veren. And again, I'd say it seems likely that he was, but I'm pretty sure we don't know for certain, and at the end of the day, it doesn't really make any difference.

[Smittyphi]

Rand didn't really talk to many monarchs, most of the cities he conquered were being controlled by the Forsaken. And he definitely bullies Aes Sedai before he became dark Rand. And so did Mat. Remember how he took one and spanked her? And I don't know about you, but kidnapping someone against their will seems like bullying to me. I know Perrin has never bullied anyone, but I'm not talking about him.

 

Rand has excuses for bullying Aes Sedai. Doesn't make it right or affect his ta'verenness (sp?).

 

Mat spanked Joline after he walking in and Joline was slapping Bethamin. Who did Mat kidnap? Tuon? Nah, Tuon allowed Mat to take her. Selucia may be one of the only people who can match Mat and I'm sure Tuon could hold her own if need be. I'm sure she received training.

 

Thrasymachus - taken from here

 

Matt: (I riffed off a second related question from WotLuckers which was: Did he have the same extra abilities?) Instead I asked: Considering what you mentioned regarding LTT's ability to sense the lack of inhabitants within miles of the spot he was at in the Prologue [of TEotW], is this ability something that comes from being the Dragon, being ta'veren, or a Talent?

Brandon: (paraphrased) It's not a Talent, but I won't say whether it is a factor of being the Dragon or something about being ta'veren.

[Edynol]

Loial said so in book one, for one thing.

[Edynol]

Rand has excuses for bullying Aes Sedai. Doesn't make it right or affect his ta'verenness (sp?).

 

Mat spanked Joline after he walking in and Joline was slapping Bethamin. Who did Mat kidnap? Tuon? Nah, Tuon allowed Mat to take her. Selucia may be one of the only people who can match Mat and I'm sure Tuon could hold her own if need be. I'm sure she received training.

Rand has excuses. That's the same thing as saying he was entitled to do so. Mat had a good reason yes, and I agree fully with what he did, but it was still a form of bullying. Also, Cadsuane had excuses for bullying as well, and IMO her weakest excuses are better than most of what Rand has. Also, there is nothing that says what makes ta'veren material. According to RJ, even a darkfriend can be ta'veren if the pattern needs it.

[Smittyphi]

Rand has excuses for bullying Aes Sedai. Doesn't make it right or affect his ta'verenness (sp?).

 

Mat spanked Joline after he walking in and Joline was slapping Bethamin. Who did Mat kidnap? Tuon? Nah, Tuon allowed Mat to take her. Selucia may be one of the only people who can match Mat and I'm sure Tuon could hold her own if need be. I'm sure she received training.

Rand has excuses. That's the same thing as saying he was entitled to do so. Mat had a good reason yes, and I agree fully with what he did, but it was still a form of bullying. Also, Cadsuane had excuses for bullying as well, and IMO her weakest excuses are better than most of what Rand has. Also, there is nothing that says what makes ta'veren material. According to RJ, even a darkfriend can be ta'veren if the pattern needs it.

 

I am not saying he was entitled. I never said it was right. He just has an excuse. He thinks Aes Sedai will box him in again and he lashes out against them.

 

I don't think what Mat did was bullying. Personal opinion as many people have different takes on the morality of spanking. Many of the Aes Sedai had become grown ups with a spoiled childs mentality. The ladies in Mat's caravan had been at each others throats the WHOLE time. Once they became civil, he had a (comparatively) more pleasant time.

[Thrasymachus]

I am familiar with where the various databases are and how to search them. I suggest you try it yourself. Do a search through that page and look for "ta'veren." The closest you get to any kind of admission that LTT was ta'veren was a discussion about how he sensed that nobody was around right before he Dragonmounted himself.

 

This is the quote I mentioned:

 

Matt:

(I riffed off a second related question from WotLuckers which was: Did he have the same extra abilities?) Instead I asked: Considering what you mentioned regarding LTT's ability to sense the lack of inhabitants within miles of the spot he was at in the Prologue [of TEotW], is this ability something that comes from being the Dragon, being

ta'veren

, or a Talent?

Brandon:

(paraphrased) It's not a Talent, but I won't say whether it is a factor of being the Dragon or something about being

ta'veren

.

 

As you should be able to notice, BS doesn't really admit here that LTT was ta'veren, and the discussion in question wasn't even about being ta'veren, but about Lews Therin's Dragon abilities, e.g. One with the Land and all that. Now, if you could, please, do something similar with any quotes you posses that are definitive on the issue. Find and post something that looks like this:

 

Fan: Yo, BS/RJ. Was Lews Therin a ta'veren during the WoP?

BS/RJ: You know it dawg.

 

And if you can't do that, then admit you don't know for sure. Same thing with that Loial quote from the first book. Quote him specifically, and be sure to be clear whether he's wondering about whether LTT was ta'veren, or whether he's sure he was.

[Edynol]

Wiki - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ta%27veren#Notable_Ta.27veren He is listed under notable ta'veren.

wotwiki - http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Ta%27veren

Also, it is just common sense that LTT and every dragon before him was ta'veren. The dragon is the Wheel's main power tool for correcting the most messed up situations, like the DO breaking free. Of course he is gonna be ta'veren. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just being dumb and stubborn and purposefully trying to start an arguement. So I am commenting no more on the matter, because we both know I am right. No one ever asked because it is that plainly obvious.

[Suttree]

Wiki - http://en.wikipedia....able_Ta.27veren He is listed under notable ta'veren.

wotwiki - http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Ta%27veren

Also, it is just common sense that LTT and every dragon before him was ta'veren. The dragon is the Wheel's main power tool for correcting the most messed up situations, like the DO breaking free. Of course he is gonna be ta'veren. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just being dumb and stubborn and purposefully trying to start an arguement. So I am commenting no more on the matter, because we both know I am right. No one ever asked because it is that plainly obvious.

 

WoT Wiki is not an accepted source. Far too many assumptions and mistakes. Not saying he wasn't, just that isn't good enough for proof. There have been a number "obvious" items that have turned out to not be the case.

[Edynol]

But in this case it isn't. Anyways, this is just derailing the topic. If you wanna discuss it further, it would be best to creat another thread. This is about Cadsuane, not LTT.

[Thrasymachus]

RJ said it himself. Ta'veren-ness ebbs and flows. Whether someone is ta'veren or not depends on the needs of the Wheel. The Heroes of the Horn aren't always ta'veren, and often don't need to be ta'veren to carry out their purpose in the Pattern. We know that Lews Therin was a Hero, but we don't know whether he was ta'veren. Unless it's explicitly stated somewhere in canon or by the Word of God, or we have an account from some character with the Talent for seeing them, there's no way to know whether someone is or was ta'veren. So Cadsuane may have been, briefly and not very strongly, just like Lews Therin may not have been, or if he was, then maybe not as strongly as Rand, or perhaps not for the entire length of the War. In fact, I would argue that it's more likely that Lews Therin was not a ta'veren during the run-up to the Strike, but Latra whatever-her-name-was, was. Otherwise, all of the women refusing to join Lews Therin at what's-her-face's say so doesn't make much sense. Her refusal to help in the Strike, and the solidarity of the women in joining her, makes it seem more like Lews Therin's thread and all the women's threads were weaving around her, and not her thread weaving around his. And this thread is at least as much about the nature of ta'veren-ness as it is about Caddy. Without talking about whether and why other people were or were not ta'veren, there's no reasonable way to assess whether Cadsuane was or not.

[Edynol]

True, maybe towards the end LTT wasn't ta'veren, but he definitely was at one point. Yes, the wheel can send out heroes that aren't ta'veren, it can send out 'heroes' that never even do anything but live normal lives. But the Dragon is like its 'oh shit' button when the shit's about to hit the fan. It's gonna wanna use it best tool to its maximum potential, which would require all the extra parts for it to work effectively. So for the Dragon, the wheel is gonna make sure he can influence events, thus making him ta'veren. Otherwise, he'd just be another male channeler and nothing special about him.