Afternoon Tea with Brandon Sanderson

[Terez]

Yeah, but that could mean anything. I'm just saying, we don't know that he Compelled Farstrider, and have at least some reason to believe he probably didn't. Which was one of the reasons why people (including myself) thought it was Farstrider in her palace in the first place.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Yeah, but that could mean anything. I'm just saying, we don't know that he Compelled Farstrider, and have at least some reason to believe he probably didn't. Which was one of the reasons why people (including myself) thought it was Farstrider in her palace in the first place.

 

I agree, I don't think Ishamael compelled him. He never used any significant compulsion with any of his other "victims" (hawkwing etc..)

 

In a world where one can use Compulsion, it seems we often forget that there are other means of convincing people to do what we want.

 

Ishamael is a master at steering people in whatever direction he wants, he doesn't need compulsion.

[yoniy0]

Yeah, I do agree. I meant, it's not outside the realm of possibility that Graendal got her hands on him through Ishamael, or with his (knowing or unknowing) aid. At the very least, I think he kept track of Jain (and, more likely, intended for the warning to reach Rand, to have them lead him to the Eye).

[Barid Bel Medar]

Yeah, I do agree. I meant, it's not outside the realm of possibility that Graendal got her hands on him through Ishamael, or with his (knowing or unknowing) aid. At the very least, I think he kept track of Jain (and, more likely, intended for the warning to reach Rand, to have them lead him to the Eye).

 

Oh yeah, I agree with you on that. Obviously Ishamael did not just throw him away.

 

Although, I have just thought of something.

 

Perhaps Graendal "acquired" Jain after Ishamael's death in tDR. Not to say he was keeping him hostage for all these years, but was keeping tabs on him, so the other Forsaken couldn't steal his tools type thing.

 

So with Ishamael out of the way, Graendal took the opportunity to leech info of the famous Farstrider. I found it strange that Graendal would just let Jain walk off without anything, but I see a reason now. Perhaps, after Moridin was born again, she thought Ishamael might want his property back, and released him, removing any trace of her "use".

 

Moridin was in Ebou Dar, could he have been catching up with his old tool?

 

I don't know, just speculation and rambling.

[Terez]

I assumed that the reason she let him go was that she had assigned him a mission. He's not doing her much good sitting in her palace, is he? And he might be one of the strings she tied to Tuon.

[BobH]

I tend to agree that Ishamael probably didn't Compel (at least, in the way Graendal Compels) JF 20 years ago. He did SOMETHING to JF back then that (apparently) lasted 20 years - we saw its effect when Noal was telling Olver about JF, and said JF had been made into a tool by -, and then couldn't finish the sentence. That "block" HAD to be because of whatever Ishamael did to him long ago, not whatever Graendal did to him more recently. And maybe it WAS some form of Compulsion, or akin to it anyway.

 

I also think BBM's comment above, about a possible reason why Graendal apparently just let JF go, makes sense. It could certainly have been a factor, in any case.

 

Another thought that occurs to me is ... perhaps Ishamael placed some sort of Finder weave on JF 20 years ago, to keep track of him. But if Graendal grabbed JF on her own (i.e. without Ishamael's help) then I'm not sure it would have helped her at all. I assume only the placer of the Finder weave can use it.

 

Also, when Rahvin glimpsed JF through the Gateway to Natrin's Barrow in TFoH prologue, he saw a disconsolate old man. The "disconsolate" description suggests that Graendal hand't yet Compeled him (her Compulsion victims would never be described as "disconsolate", I think). So that probably wasn't long after she'd nabbed him. That doesn't contradict the idea that JF had been in Falme, and seen DSBE Seanchan there, I think. That is, it seems plausible that, after the Heroes of the Horn incident in Falme at the end of TGH, JF remained there and was later grabbed by Graendal shortly before TFoH opens (8~9 months later).

[BobH]

I assumed that the reason she let him go was that she had assigned him a mission. He's not doing her much good sitting in her palace, is he? And he might be one of the strings she tied to Tuon.

 

Terez, I think BBM meant why Graendal apparently let JF go after he'd hooked up with Mat (or after he left Ebou Dar with Mat). Not why she sent him to Ebou Dar in the first place (rather than keep him sitting in her palace).

 

That's what I assumed in my reply above, at any rate.

[Terez]

Well, as to why she sent him there in the first place, it was apparently to spy on Darkfriends answering to other Forsaken. As to why she let him go with Mat, well...she could always use a spy there, too, don't you think? On top of that, Tuon was with him.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Well, as to why she sent him there in the first place, it was apparently to spy on Darkfriends answering to other Forsaken. As to why she let him go with Mat, well...she could always use a spy there, too, don't you think? On top of that, Tuon was with him.

 

Yeah, I agree, it is likely.

 

It does bring something to mind. Didn't Noal wander off a few times when he was with Mat? Reporting to Graendal or Moridin I would say.

 

I was just offering an alternative, because it seemed like Graendal had just left him alone after the initial Ebou Dar mission.

 

A spy is possible, specially with her comment of having a few strings tied to Tuon. I just would have thought she would have done something with Mat and ToG, compel Jain to betray him in there would easily have led to his death, which was ordered in KoD.

 

But then again, Graendal doesn't take bold risks, just thought Jain was left a bit to the side, for such an important tool.

[Terez]

Well, as to why she sent him there in the first place, it was apparently to spy on Darkfriends answering to other Forsaken. As to why she let him go with Mat, well...she could always use a spy there, too, don't you think? On top of that, Tuon was with him.

 

Yeah, I agree, it is likely.

 

It does bring something to mind. Didn't Noal wander off a few times when he was with Mat? Reporting to Graendal or Moridin I would say.

 

Just once that I can think of. And yes, that's the assumption.

 

Abruptly, Noal darted around from the rear of the tent, breath­ing hard as if he had been running. Juilin glanced up in surprise at the old man, and Mat frowned. He had told Noal to come straight here. Where had he gone instead? Noal looked at him expectantly, not with any guilt or embarrassment, just eager to hear what Mat had to say.

[Sharaman]

Unfortunately, the way the plotline has gone, we'll probably never see all the loose ends tied up about Jain.

All we know now is, Ishamael messed with him, many years ago.

Ogier helped him to sort of recover from that.

Graendal had him in her possession for a while and also messed with him..

He "died clean" he thought.

There's no telling if there was some post-hypnotic command thrown in by either Ishy or Graendal.

Did G use him to strike at Mat as per Moridin's instructions, or just to watch?

Doesn't seem so unless there's an Easter egg that explodes in Mat's face now due to whatever action JF took.

[Maleshub]

One way to try and figure out Jain Farstrider is to view him in the same light as Byar or Masema, whom Graendal manipulated carefully to try and kill Perrin (if that is what she did that - I don't have textual evidence and am just going by personal interpretation here). She might have placed him close to Mat in order to strike when the command is given.

[JamesL85]

Nope. Here is the message I sent Ama: Tell Brandon I said hi. Oh, and ask if Taim's palace is made of Shayol Ghul rock. Tell him Terez was very cranky with me that I didn't ask. LOL.James.

 

Ama's reply: The answer is yes!!!

 

 

I wonder if this is not how Taim is getting so many converts--a taint in the stone. I mean if thakan'dar wrought steel can pick up a taint....

 

I'm at work and don't have the books with me, but there's a prophecy about his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul. Maybe Logain doesn't cleanse the black tower, maybe it's Rand and he's injured there?

 

Probably a stretch......And sorry if it's been covered elsewhere.

 

James

[TristanWebb]

Well, the Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire and sisters will walk it's grounds (I only have audio books atm so hard to get exact quotes) according to Elaida's foretelling, and I don't think that has happened yet. So Rand could be there. Would be interesting to see him realise why LTT wanted to kill Taim.

[Terez]

Nope. Here is the message I sent Ama: Tell Brandon I said hi. Oh, and ask if Taim's palace is made of Shayol Ghul rock. Tell him Terez was very cranky with me that I didn't ask. LOL.James.

 

Ama's reply: The answer is yes!!!

 

 

I wonder if this is not how Taim is getting so many converts--a taint in the stone. I mean if thakan'dar wrought steel can pick up a taint....

 

I'm at work and don't have the books with me, but there's a prophecy about his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul. Maybe Logain doesn't cleanse the black tower, maybe it's Rand and he's injured there?

 

Probably a stretch......And sorry if it's been covered elsewhere.

 

James

 

One of the prophecies says he'll shed his blood in the Pit of Doom. Or at least, it says "in the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow".