the finns

[Luckers]

Mmm, yes, there is quite a lot of evidence that mat will lose his eye.

[Fryn]

While he might not be spun out from the wheel like brigette it is very likely that he is spun out like Rand is (Perrin as well, though less evidence for him). We know he isn't spun out like brigette simply because of the viewings Min has; for bridgette there are images on images on images more than any one life time she mentioned, while for Rand/Perrin/Mat they always have aruas like Aes Sedai, but they do not have an over abundance just more than other people.

 

We do know that the Finn's called him son of battles, the trickster, and the gambler before he ever went through the second doorway, and we know that he spoke the old tongue as well before hand, as well as having some ingrown knoweledge of Mantherin (Kinda like Egwene). Mat also had a memory of an old fight before going through the second doorway iirc (Something about being with the king's guard in the last stand).

 

My best guess is the people bound to the wheel like brigette are spun out a lot more often to fix small problems with the pattern, while Rand, perrin, and/or Mat are spun out less often to fix major problems with teh pattern.

 

Personally I would very much doubt if he looses his memories from other people. In his deal there was nothing that said he couldn't come back after all.

[Luckers]

Rand is spun out in the manner that Birgitte is, the difference in the auras comes from the fact that Birgitte was pulle out, and not born, and therefore she exists connected to all her lives for a time. Where min to encounter Gaidal now, he would only have the auras of this current life. (as indeed, Birgitte seems to be attaining... what with losing her memories etc)

 

Every single person in the wheel is born and reborn--Mat's past lives as a Manatheren general (not his memories, those were gained from the Finns) are recalled to him because of a genetic dispositionary memory--the old blood--and then only in a phrase every now and again. You will recall that Egwene also had such a predisposition, though hers was weaker and hasn't really been mentioned in a while. (I have suspicions that Egwene was Elisandre... but no proof. meh.)

[Fryn]

You might be right, but I'm not sure Min's visions are due to her being pulled out of the pattern. The main problem I see with that is there are just as many visions of the future as there are of the past (Lots of adventures with both an older and a younger man). And at the same time Brigette has forgotten many of those events that are seen in Min's visions.

 

Another thought came to me about Mat's memories. All of the memories he has were from men that visited the snakes (Since the doorway to the foxes was in the waste). Yet they were implanted by the foxes. So at the very least there is some sort of sharing with the memories that one set of the finn's sift through. It is also very likely that both the snakes and teh foxes will be involved when they go to rescue Morraine, since in the game both hunt the players.

[Guest Majsju]

You might be right' date=' but I'm not sure Min's visions are due to her being pulled out of the pattern. The main problem I see with that is there are just as many visions of the future as there are of the past (Lots of adventures with both an older and a younger man). And at the same time Brigette has forgotten many of those events that are seen in Min's visions.

 

Another thought came to me about Mat's memories. All of the memories he has were from men that visited the snakes (Since the doorway to the foxes was in the waste). Yet they were implanted by the foxes. So at the very least there is some sort of sharing with the memories that one set of the finn's sift through. It is also very likely that both the snakes and teh foxes will be involved when they go to rescue Morraine, since in the game both hunt the players.[/quote']

 

Most of the people whose memories Mat has entered through the Tower of Ghebnjei, which was far more well-known back in the days. So whether or not the doorway was available is irrelevant.

 

And Birgittes images are only about her future.

[Fryn]

Just out of curious, how do we know that any/most of those memories come from people that went through the Tower of Ghebnjei? The only mention of the tower that I remember was Brigette warning Perrin to stay away from the tower in the world of dreams, saying it was hard enough to leave in the real world and almost imposible in the world of dreams.

 

I thought the doorways were part of some sort of agreement between the finn's and humanity when there was much more interaction between the two. Since the doorways are ter angrels it means they were made before the breaking, so it sounds like the time when the two met more often (entering the tower; maybe in other places as well?) was before the breaking. All of Mat's memories are from post breaking (Mat realises this after talking with Brigette), it made me think that knowledge of the finn's was lost in the breaking. Also the only person that knows how to enter the tower is Brigette. From everything I can tell not even Aes Sedai know how to enter the tower; While walking down the Foxes area of the tower they mention how it has been a very very long time, and there is dust all over, so it seems unlikely that any human had walked there in a long time if the doorways were links to the different portions of the Tower. So I assumed that the knowledge was lost in the breaking as well.

 

I might have missed stuff though, I never really focused on the finn's while reading the series.

[Luckers]

I'm not so sure Maj. Min does see the past in auras, and nothing in the wording of that passage indicates that Birgittes auras are of the future.

[Kaznen]

RJ said so in one of his Questions of the Week. The tower, which was more well known during the time between the Trolloc Wars and Hawkwing was the only way to the land of the Finns. The Restone doorway in Tearwas well hidden and the one in the waste was inexcessible.

[Guest Majsju]

As Kaznen said, RJ explained about the TOG in one of the old Question of the Week, I think they're still available on wotmania.

 

As for what Min sees, RJ said that she sees the future at D*Con -05.

 

http://p079.ezboard.com/ftheorylandfrm30.showMessage?topicID=1.topic

[Fryn]

Thanks, I can see why I missed it :)

 

If Min can only see future images though it makes me wonder why she can't see future images on Rand as well though (like LTT). I have always wondered how Min's visions worked exactly. I've always thought that she was reading the pattern, so should be able to see auras from future lives as well since the pattern wouldn't treat the threads as different just reused in new places. And if it's only future aura's Brigette being pulled out of the pattern shouldn't matter that much.

[Luckers]

He does seem very... certain about it, doesn't he. Curious, concidering the very first things she saw in Baerlon with Rand and the others were of the past. Around Lan she saw seven ruined towers, and a baby in a cradle holding a sword. Around Thom she saw a man, not him, juggling fire which had to be Owen. All of these things were in the past.

[Guest Majsju]

Can't see Rand's future?

 

Every single viewing Min has had of Rand is about his future.

 

But RJ must have changed his mind about this, because there's at least two occasions of Min viewing someone's past. First Lan in TEOTW, where she sees seven broken towers and a baby in a cradle holding a sword.

 

And then Taim in ACOS, where she says she sees blood in both his past and his future.

 

As for Birgitte, being ripped out the way she was doesn't have to mean her bond to the Horn is broken, she might continue being a Hero. Or if the bond is broken, perhaps "re-qualify" during this life.

[Luckers]

It would seem that something like her being reabsorbed into the pattern is occuring.

[Fryn]

Oops I meant Rand's future lives (At the very least he will be reborn as LTT again). Your probably right though, it might just be due to how Brigette was ripped out into the world (Though by Min's viewings that was always going to happen).

[Luckers]

Min's viewings dont show that she was always going to be ripped out, just that that hasn't blunted her personal progression. It may be that now there would be far less auras around birgitte as she is slowly reabsorbed into the weave of the pattern.

[Inara]

about mins viewings

she can see what makes people who they are, all those things ppl mention are events in that person's life significant enough to have shaped their personality in a drastic way.

 

about birgitte, she was ripped from the pattern, not born into it, so her fate has not yet been cast, the visions of a much younger man and a much older man are all gaidal cain (i think birgitte say they there is always a great difference in their ages, no matter what life they are born into), and her visions are settling down as the pattern equilibrates and her fate is decided.

 

so min doesnt see the past, she sees symbols of the person's character; WHO somebody is, and events in their future

[Luckers]

That doesn't fit with RJ's assertion that Min sees ONLY the future. Though i agree, and think RJ has changed his mind or made a mistake.