A Basic Game: Mafia Wins!

[John E. Kelley]

I'm not jumping on any wagon that Ishy, Sakaea and Key are all on.

 

What do you have against me and my harem m'friend?

[keyholder21]

I'm not jumping on any wagon that Ishy, Sakaea and Key are all on.

 

That's ridiculouss. This is because why? You think we're scummates?

 

For the love people. I hope you all look closely at the reasons people are voting for me.

 

Unvote, vote Key.

 

Enjoy.

[cosmicpanda]

I'm sure Sakaea is scum. I'm not quite so sure about Key and Ishy, but they're being stupid about Arez's thing about the random lynch. I'm not sure if that stupidity is deliberate or not. I've found in the past that scum act obtuse as a way of ignoring perfectly rational arguments. Key's probably town, in fact.

 

Ishy & Key: I'm done trying to explain why I think Arez is town to you; you either think I'm wrong, or that they're scum. Either way, I'm not going to join you.

 

So, to place my vote where my mouth is:

 

Unvote, Vote: Sakaea

[cosmicpanda]

That last "they're scum" should be "he's scum."

[John E. Kelley]

I'm sure Sakaea is scum. I'm not quite so sure about Key and Ishy, but they're being stupid about Arez's thing about the random lynch. I'm not sure if that stupidity is deliberate or not. I've found in the past that scum act obtuse as a way of ignoring perfectly rational arguments. Key's probably town, in fact.

 

Ishy & Key: I'm done trying to explain why I think Arez is town to you; you either think I'm wrong, or that they're scum. Either way, I'm not going to join you.

 

So, to place my vote where my mouth is:

 

Unvote, Vote: Sakaea

 

Bolded: personal insults now? I just don't get at this point. I've been told often that you were one of the pros around here. If you can't see that Arez's statement yesterday was scummy, I won't ever be able to persuade you. I can't speak for Em and Kae, but I'm telling you flat out, I'm not on a team with Key and Kae, I think you're wrong about Arez and I'm not acting in any way. Even if Arez winds up flipping town, which I doubt, think of the info we'll get from his lynch. Come at the three of us tomorrow in that case, town should have all the info they need.

 

And for the rest of you: plenty of you (I'm looking at you Red) have enough experience to know that what Key, Kae and I say is 100% true. If you still insist on following through with this ridiculous case on us, then just know that that tells me all I need to know. Those of you that have kept up with the game KNOW that calling for a random kill is scummy. Period. Deny it, and I'll know what is what.

 

And Key, knock off the self pity crap. Just saying.

[keyholder21]

...I think he's scum. That's why I was voting for him. I guess we're just on opposite sides of the issue. I'm not acting obtuse, I just really don't understand why you think he's town. Especially since you've stated yourself that you're not the cop. But yeah *laughs* I'm not going to argue either.

 

 

(I hope there's no hard feelings here, because I don't have any.)

 

 

----

 

In response to Ishy's post: I agree with every word. Like I said, when I am lynched I hope you all look closely at the reasons people are voting for me.

 

No self-pity silly. Just giving the people what they want.

[cosmicpanda]

Key, stop voting for yourself. I'll also explain one more time about the 100% thing that I said about Aemon: it was a figure of speech, not a cop claim. That's all. I was not aware of the current inclination amongst mafia players on this site to jump on any little thing as being a potential cop claim.

 

Ishy, I'm sorry if my saying that I think you're being stupid about something offends you, and perhaps it is phrased indelicately. It's more that I'm frustrated at your seeming inability to see where I'm coming from. I have explained how that feeling of mine might affect my read of you.

 

Both of you, I'll try again, to see if I can convince you. Here's my post, so you don't have to dig it up:

 

It wasn't as if he [Arez] was saying for the whole day, "let's go for a random vote! That's a good way to play!" Rather, as he's just explained, he thought that AH was town, and given the choice, preferred even the small chance of hitting scum to what he saw as definitely hitting town.

 

Moreover, as you have pointed out in caps, AH was the lyncher. Even if Arez is scum (and I don't think he is), he wouldn't have been trying to protect AH by calling for a random vote, because she wasn't on his team and he would have had no way of knowing her role and alignment. Thus, the psychology you posit makes no sense.

 

So, I'll break down the reasoning in tiny steps, and you can tell me where I'm wrong. If not, I'll expect you to vote for somebody else.

 

 

Firstly, as to why Arez is probably town:

 

- Newbies don't always know the best way of playing.

- Arez is new to mafia.

- Random lynches are bad for the town, because they are more likely to hit a townie than a mafioso. They also remove any of the information-gathering possibilities from that day's lynch, as it's unlikely that anybody voted for the eventual lynchee, and it's likely that nobody was moved to defend them. (That's why I personally don't like random lynches).

- Arez had the opinion that AH was town, and didn't want to vote for her; he did not see the downsides to a random lynch, preferring the upside of preserving the life of somebody he understood to be town. This was probably because of his newness.

- Therefore, his statement that a random lynch was preferable to an AH lynch is not necessarily scummy. That is, random lynches are anti-town, but Arez's suggestion of one was not motivated by anti-town concerns.

 

Secondly, as to why Arez is not scum:

 

- Scum need to get townies lynched, or they do not win. They cannot rely on random lynches, because they are, almost by definition, unreliable.

- AH was not mafia, which means that the mafia would have seen her as an acceptable lynch candidate. They would have been happy with her lynch.

- If Arez were mafia, he would have wanted to lynch AH.

- However, Arez did not vote for her. Instead, he attempted to derail the AH lynch in favour of what he perceived as a course of action more favourable to the town.

- Thus, Arez is probably not mafia.

 

 

 

Finally, since Sakaea is lurking so much, it's hard to build a good case on her. However, having just played a game with her as scum, she's playing exactly like she did then. Hence my vote.

[cosmicpanda]

That is, if I'm not wrong, I'll expect you to stop voting for Arez.

[keyholder21]

Cosmic, that reads as very condescending, fyi. I did not ask you to repeat or try to explain. In fact I even stated in my post that I just really think we're on separate sides of the issue.

 

As for getting frustrated because we're not seeing your side, can't you see that that's the same for us? We're frustrated you are seemingly not seeing OUR side. You can't blame us for doing the same thing you are.

 

As for Arez. NOT only am I voting for him because I think it's scummy to vote random (which I am FULLY aware you do not agree with, that's NOT my point), but the fact that he seems to have switched how he feels about this particular issue.

 

To copy some of my post from earlier:

 

Anyway, I didn't want anyone random to die as that kinda makes the game boring.. So I did the only thing possible to stop a random lynch, and that was voting on someone to get lynched. I was pretty sure Razen was a Townie, but as I said, I had no other choice to prevent a random lynch, unless I've got something wrong?

Is this not the exact opposite of the below statement?

AH is a town, I don't care if we get a random..

 

Vote: Cosmic

 

Arez DOES think that random is bad but then he doesn't? Seems fishy to me, hence me thinking he's scummy.

 

As far as voting for myself, I'm trying to help the town. You're going to get a random lynch soon. It looked as if people were more inclined to vote for me than Arez, so I am doing what I can to help you all.

[John E. Kelley]

That is, if I'm not wrong, I'll expect you to stop voting for Arez.

 

I won't. Do what you have to do. If you have a better alternative, let's see it. Picking on Kae and Key won't make them any scummier.

[Levity]

oh god I am so sorry if I sounded irritated just now

[Levity]

I'm sure Sakaea is scum. I'm not quite so sure about Key and Ishy, but they're being stupid about Arez's thing about the random lynch.

Unvote, Vote: Sakaea

Do you still think Aemon is scum?

[John E. Kelley]

We have 12 hours till deadline. Make a move you sheep. Letting it go random will tell me what I need to know....

[cosmicpanda]

Key, I didn't mean to be condescending. All I wanted was for you to engage with my reasoning, which you seem to be unwilling to do (as does Ishy). You say you disagree, but you refuse to say why. I don't see why the switch you post is scummy, either. He doesn't display any understanding of why a random lynch is bad in his first post, only that it's 'kinda boring'. I don't think that saying one thing and then saying another is scummy, unless you can say why it hurts the town and benefits the scum.

 

Ishy, I'm not trying to pick on Key. I think she's town, I don't want to lynch her, I'm trying to convince her that somebody else is town. Why do you think that Kae is town?

 

Levity, I don't currently think Aemon is scum. I was sure of his being scum for a while, then he said something that made me less sure, and now he's sort of floating in limboland.

[Levity]

Also bleh, come to think of it I could be voting someone better than Arez. Contrary to popular belief I don't think Key is scum, though; as I said before with AH, the self-vote came too early and I just don't see that as a scumtell.

[Levity]

Levity, I don't currently think Aemon is scum. I was sure of his being scum for a while, then he said something that made me less sure, and now he's sort of floating in limboland.

Ah; I was just curious. Thanks for responding.

[Levity]

By the way, Ishy, your aggressiveness is putting me off a lot. /:

I understand when it's more concentrated, but this seems unusual.

[John E. Kelley]

By the way, Ishy, your aggressiveness is putting me off a lot. /:

I understand when it's more concentrated, but this seems unusual.

 

Aggresiveness on something I really believe in? I won't apologize for that. Scummy is scummy. If you can point me in the direction of someone else that's been scummier, I'll be happy to listen. Because no one has been scummier at this point. Except maybe Cosmic for continuing to defend Arez. Or maybe you for doing the same.

[keyholder21]

Key, I didn't mean to be condescending. All I wanted was for you to engage with my reasoning, which you seem to be unwilling to do (as does Ishy).

 

Not unwilling, I just didn't think it was necessary as we'd be rehashing everything that's already been said. However, if you want me to go through your post point by point I will.

 

 

Incoming...

[Levity]

Or maybe you for doing the same.

I'm voting him, though.

But I can quickly switch to you if you'd like.

[keyholder21]

I'll also explain one more time about the 100% thing that I said about Aemon: it was a figure of speech, not a cop claim. That's all. I was not aware of the current inclination amongst mafia players on this site to jump on any little thing as being a potential cop claim.

 

 

So, if you were playing a game and someone said (before clarification) that someone was 100% scum, you WOULDN'T automatically think they were soft claiming cop or some other investigative role? Mafia is a game all about analyzing what other people say and trying to build a case around it so of COURSE we're going to read into it.

 

Ishy, I'm sorry if my saying that I think you're being stupid about something offends you, and perhaps it is phrased indelicately. It's more that I'm frustrated at your seeming inability to see where I'm coming from. I have explained how that feeling of mine might affect my read of you.

 

 

Calling people stupid IS offensive. We should keep the mafia arguments to mafia and not attacking the actual people. But I don't think you meant to, just giving my two cents.

 

Both of you, I'll try again, to see if I can convince you. Here's my post, so you don't have to dig it up:

 

 

[…]

 

So, I'll break down the reasoning in tiny steps, and you can tell me where I'm wrong. If not, I'll expect you to vote for somebody else.

 

These two statements are the condensing part btw.

Firstly, as to why Arez is probably town:

 

- Newbies don't always know the best way of playing.

- Arez is new to mafia.

These statements are both true, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he's town. Newbies have just as much chance to be assigned a scum role as the rest of us.

- Random lynches are bad for the town, because they are more likely to hit a townie than a mafioso. They also remove any of the information-gathering possibilities from that day's lynch, as it's unlikely that anybody voted for the eventual lynchee, and it's likely that nobody was moved to defend them. (That's why I personally don't like random lynches).

Yes, random lynches ARE bad for the town. This is part of the point I was trying to make earlier. We agree on this point.

- Arez had the opinion that AH was town, and didn't want to vote for her; he did not see the downsides to a random lynch, preferring the upside of preserving the life of somebody he understood to be town. This was probably because of his newness.

Reread his previous vote for Razen. Yes he states that a random lynch would be boring (which is totally not the point of the game but I digress), but then he also states that he voted for Razen who he THOUGHT WAS A TOWNIE, in order to avoid a random. Then he asks if what he did was right or not.

- Therefore, his statement that a random lynch was preferable to an AH lynch is not necessarily scummy. That is, random lynches are anti-town, but Arez's suggestion of one was not motivated by anti-town concerns.

I view this as not anti-town how we are talking, but it's still anti-town. It's a player NOT caring about who and what is lynched. How does this in any way help the town?

 

Secondly, as to why Arez is not scum:

 

- Scum need to get townies lynched, or they do not win. They cannot rely on random lynches, because they are, almost by definition, unreliable.

While this is true, going for a random can still be a scum maneuver. Especially if it's done by a new player that is being coached by more experienced players. Also, while it would be RISKY to rely on a random lynch, it's not an alltogether bad plan. A random lynch might hit the doc or the cop which would be more detrimental to the town than the scum losing a goon.

 

 

- AH was not mafia, which means that the mafia would have seen her as an acceptable lynch candidate. They would have been happy with her lynch.

A lynch that still could have been achieved which someone unvoting/not voting her.

- If Arez were mafia, he would have wanted to lynch AH.

Or state that she's town so that when she flips he looks better. It's what he did with Razen too, though he ulimately voted for him.

- However, Arez did not vote for her. Instead, he attempted to derail the AH lynch in favour of what he perceived as a course of action more favourable to the town.

Again, I have to disagree here. I don't think a random is more favorable to the town than lynching someone. But I think we've beat that argument into the dirt, don't you?

[cosmicpanda]

You make an interesting point about the way he thought Razen was town and was happy to vote for him instead of allowing a random lynch, actually. You have made me doubt my read on Arez ever so slightly. I think a bit of our disagreement relies on the distinction I make between anti-town and scummy, which are not the same things; this is why I think somebody can play badly and hurt town while still not being scum.

 

However, I still think that Sakaea is scum. I'm confused by the way Ishy is backing her.

[cosmicpanda]

Well, obviously nobody else has shown up, so I think we have to try and lynch Arez...

 

Unvote, Vote: Arez

[SBoydW]

Do we have a vote count?

[SBoydW]

ALright by my count Arez only needs one more.... with only 4 hours left.... I guess I'll hammer....

 

Unvote. Vote Arez