Quick question about 'A Game Of Thrones'

[The Fisher King]

I'm reading ADWD right now for the first time. About 2/3 through it. I'm very pleasantly surprised so far. Id read some disappointing reviews but I'm really enjoying it. Yes, a lot of "Travel From A to B While Infodumping Exposition" but that's ok. Its what much of fantasy is evolving into anyway, unfortunately.

 

Anyway...something in the book made me go back to AGOT to doublecheck something and I found myself rereading the first private meeting between Lord Eddard and Grand Maester Pycelle - where they discuss Jon Arryn's death.

 

I caught something that really puzzled me. We later learn that Pycelle is a Lannister Man through and through. Yet, it is him, in this chapter that points Lord Stark in the direction of the infamous book on genealogy that really serves as the only real piece of evidence that can threaten House Lannister.

 

Seems an odd thing for Pycelle to do to me. Very counter to his loyalties..

 

Any thoughts on why Pycelle did this here?

 

 

Fish

[fearless-freak]

i'm not at ADWD yet still on AFFC and from what i've read so far and i'm going out on a limb here is that Cersei wants Pycelle gone because of what he knows

[The Fisher King]

i'm not at ADWD yet still on AFFC and from what i've read so far and i'm going out on a limb here is that Cersei wants Pycelle gone because of what he knows

 

Thanks for replying, but, unless I'm misunderstanding, I'm not sure what you mean in relation to my post.

 

I'm sot sure why such a staunch loyalist to House Lannister (Pycelle) would turn Eddard Stark onto that very damning book of Jon Arryns concerning genealogy? It was a RARE piece of evidence against The Lanns.

 

 

Fish

[Sid]

Here's my take on it:

I almost think it was just a slip of Pycelle's to even mention the book in the first place. He spoke of it in passing, at the beginning of a long account of the former Hand's final days. When Ned finally asked to see it, he tried to turn him off the idea, calling it a 'ponderous tome' but when Ned insisted he had no way to press the issue further without raising suspicion. I'd guess he had seen no indications that Ned was onto anything, and hoped that the book would be such dry reading that he wouldn't figure it out. And if it weren't for Sansa and Arya arguing about Joffery, he may never have figured it out by himself.

[The Fisher King]

Here's my take on it:

I almost think it was just a slip of Pycelle's to even mention the book in the first place. He spoke of it in passing, at the beginning of a long account of the former Hand's final days. When Ned finally asked to see it, he tried to turn him off the idea, calling it a 'ponderous tome' but when Ned insisted he had no way to press the issue further without raising suspicion. I'd guess he had seen no indications that Ned was onto anything, and hoped that the book would be such dry reading that he wouldn't figure it out. And if it weren't for Sansa and Arya arguing about Joffery, he may never have figured it out by himself.

 

Great take, Sid.

 

 

Fish

[Red2111]

yeah what Sid said.

 

 

i never read the books in depth or studied them; but honestly the mention of the geneology book never came off as a hint, more of a recount of what the previous hand was doing. it probably wasn't until later, when it was found out Stark was hunting down all of Roberts bastards that Ned was onto the same trail that Jon was.

[Scrambles]

Pycelle is loyal to whoever holds the iron throne, While they hold it he is loyal but if it were the Starks or whoever, he would be loyal to them. Pycelle looks out for himself by looking out for the throne.

[Scrambles]

also being a maester reinforces this.

[Rufae]

I think Pycelle was hoping that by exposing Cersei's children as bastards, Eddard would support the rightful heir, Stannis. Which he did. He knew that Stannis is like Eddard and would rise up to stake claim on the throne leading to a Baratheon/Lannister war which he rightly guessed that the Lannisters won. So in a round about way, he strengthened the Lannister hold on the throne.

 

 

With Tywin in control, things would have went MUCH better for the Lannisters. Instead, Tyrion mucked up th eplan by killing him and allowing Cersei to screw things up royally.

 

[Werthead]

Pycelle may be sharper than he looks, but he's still a guy in his eighties. Slip-ups are to be expected. It's also possible that he thought Eddard would ultimately trip himself up and be quietly dealt with the same way as Jon Arryn was, without triggering a massive war.

 

Pycelle definitely wasn't trying to cause a war, however,

 

 

Unlike Littlefinger, who revelled in the opportunities presented by the chaos.

 

 

As the risk of the Lannisters losing (and they would have, if Edmure hadn't made a wrong tactical decision and if Stannis had worked harder to win over the Tyrells) was far too great.

 

Pycelle is loyal to whoever holds the iron throne, While they hold it he is loyal but if it were the Starks or whoever, he would be loyal to them. Pycelle looks out for himself by looking out for the throne.

 

He most certainly is not.

 

 

He betrayed Aerys by opening the gates of King's Landing to the Lannister army, allowing them to sack the city.

 

 

Pycelle's placed his support firmly with the Lannisters, come whatever.

[Tom Sawyer]

Did Pycelle even know that Cersei's kids were bastards? I don't recall any reference to him having that information. I think he felt that this was just an innocuous book which had no bearing on anything that would harm the Lannisters.

[The Fisher King]

Did Pycelle even know that Cersei's kids were bastards? I don't recall any reference to him having that information. I think he felt that this was just an innocuous book which had no bearing on anything that would harm the Lannisters.

 

Oh, you're dang right Pycelle knew. He may have been old, but he wasn't blind. Also, he was intrinsically entwined with House Lannister for decades.

 

He also swears to Tyrion in aCoKs that everything he ever did was for House Lannister.

 

Thus the puzzle.

 

Who knows. Wert might be right. He may have just slipped up in an attempt to ingratiate himself to Lord Eddard.

 

 

Fish

[Tom Sawyer]

What are you basing that knowledge of his on? Few people who were intrinsicly entwined with House Lannister had any idea. Papa Lannister (brainfart on the name) was sharper than any of them and he had no clue, Barristan spent decades guarding the royal family and he had no clue and the list goes on and on. There were only a handful of people in King's Landing that had any sort of inkling about it and they were the people involved in either spying on everyone or trying to expose the incest. I can't recall anything in the storyline which suggests this knowledge on the part of Pycelle.

[Sid]

The leap that Pycelle knew what was going on involves the fact that he believed Cersei wanted Jon Arryn dead, and was the one that had him poisoned. He then made sure Arryn didn't recover. Coupled with the book Jon was reading and his recent visits to certain people in KL, his belief that Cersei wanted the Hand eliminated would indicate that he connected the dots.

There may be more evidence from Tyrion's chapter in ACoK with Shagga and Pycelle, but I can't remember anything exact.

 

Tywin is not immune to being blind about things he doesn't want to know. He may know but still refuses to believe, or he may know but never betrays that he knows (the walls have ears). Another example of this is that he constantly refuses to see his son Tyrion's worth, even after his own sister told him straight to his face.

[Werthead]

Varys definitely knew. He talked to Eddard about it after Eddard's arrest and before Eddard told him. I'd be moumentally shocked if Littlefinger hadn't known. Barristan is extremely honourable and wouldn't shame himself to think of things such as incest, so him not knowing makes sense.

 

As for Tywin, he wasn't at court in King's Landing with Jaime and Cersei day-to-day, so he wouldn't know (Kevan seemed to have an inkling, though, and tells Cersei outright he knows the truth in AFFC).

 

Pycelle knowing is more than possible. He's far sharper than most credit him for and it may be that Cersei and Jaime made slip-ups when he was around, perhaps assuming he was just a doddering and semi-senile old fool.

[The Fisher King]

Sid and Wert both just said a lot of what Ive been thinking but they just expressed it a lot better.

 

 

Fish