Mesaana Post-ToM

[csnyder]

So Mesaana is still in a vegetative state...but does that make her ability to channel moot for use via a'dam or link? I seem to remember somewhere RJ said we were going to start to learn about souls and the lack thereof, but this seems rather different from an entire lack of a soul being more comatose in nature...

[LeeM.Erickson]

I'd say as far as linking goes, she's out. I doubt she's lucid enough to be able to put herself on the verge of embracing the Source, which is necessary for entering a circle.

 

A'dam, not sure about that one. I don't think we know enough about how it works. I'd guess it probably wouldn't work. The a'dam only seems to allow the sul'dam to force damane to do things they could do on their own. If Mesanna is too brain-dead to be able to embrace the Source on her own, even with an a'dam it might not work, since it's forcing her to do something she's incapable of.

[csnyder]

Although I can see how lucidity could be an issue, I'm not so sure merely because of the method through

which not only Moghedien, but Mesaana herself was captured (although TAR rules may have been the difference

in Mesaana's case. Perhaps her will breaking has direct correlation with the True Source, or it may not.).

In any case, I think some discussion on the functionality of the a'dam needs to be clarified here as it is

way beyond me.

 

First off, the sul'dam-damane connection requires the damane to be subservient (as far as

we have really seen) only due to a cultural restriction; although Nynaeve's collaring of Moghedien

reflected this same methodology, it could possibly be that this was how she assumed it worked as a

result of her experience with it.

What I mean to say is this; the a'dam appears to be a forced link limited to two women (whereas the

sad bracelets are for two women and one man, additionally allowing for women to lead the link).

Now say, for example, a woman with knowledge and skill in the power uses the a'dam on another

with the same skill and knowledge - what could possibly be the advantage of creating a ter'angreal

that limits the possible benefits of simply linking (which allows for a greater gross power besides)?

The ability to force a link appears to be the answer, but that 'link' (quotes for the a'dam's link as

it is used in Rand's time) is obtained through rugged training and as per Moghedien being used does not

guarantee total control.

The damane have been trained - as all morat trainers have trained their respective species to be as much

as they possibly can - and thoroughly brainwashed to believe they cannot escape their captors (as is seen

with the few Aes Sedai damane). However, the issue is is that the damane channel on their own albeit the

nature of the channeling is controlled to the threat of control by the sul'dam - I believe even Tuon said

she thought she could see the weaves as the damane she controlled used the Source, but nothing further is

discussed. The possibility of a sul'dam adding her own Power-strength to the link is so obviously taboo

that perhaps the a'dam hides an extra mechanical advantage when both women channel - and I dare say that

when the link is obtained through similar means which the sul'dam use that the person holding the leash has total

control (or to maybe a similar extent to the sad-bracelet linking limitation). Remember also that Elayne wisely

removed the a'dam during the bubble of evil attack on Salidar - assumedly, the only reason for this to be

wise is due to the link reaching a number it is not supposed to (more than twelve, or maybe thirteen) or the

usual fluidity of control of the link would have been unnaturally limited to only one woman (I cannot determine without solid proof what the results could have been, but death has been seen with improper a'dam use). I

guess what I mean to say here, is that the moment the a'dam is put on two individuals that a link exists

somehow - no matter the Source being held or not...

[Terez]

So Mesaana is still in a vegetative state...but does that make her ability to channel moot for use via a'dam or link? I seem to remember somewhere RJ said we were going to start to learn about souls and the lack thereof, but this seems rather different from an entire lack of a soul being more comatose in nature...

1. Brandon has said she's pretty much out of the picture at this point.

2. As to what RJ said about how we were going to learn about souls, this was in reference to Verin and Trayal. There's a bit about it in the WoT FAQ.

[Luckers]

I liked the idea that she'd been bound by a cour'souvra after her failure in Tower in tGS, and that she was going to be used like a puppet when the mindtrap was broken... but Brandon's comments about her make it seem very unlikely.

[The Fisher King]

So Mesaana is still in a vegetative state...but does that make her ability to channel moot for use via a'dam or link? I seem to remember somewhere RJ said we were going to start to learn about souls and the lack thereof, but this seems rather different from an entire lack of a soul being more comatose in nature...

1. Brandon has said she's pretty much out of the picture at this point.

2. As to what RJ said about how we were going to learn about souls, this was in reference to Verin and Trayal. There's a bit about it in the WoT FAQ.

 

Yeaaaah...WHAT 'Temple Thing' ???! LOL!!!

 

 

Fish

[Tom Sawyer]

Do they even have temples in Randland? The only thing close to an organized religion is the Whitecloaks and they didn't seem to have any kind of clergy or anything to work at the temples and no mention of their having any has been made from what I can recall.

[Terez]

Do they even have temples in Randland?

Not that we know of.

 

The only thing close to an organized religion is the Whitecloaks and they didn't seem to have any kind of clergy or anything to work at the temples and no mention of their having any has been made from what I can recall.

RJ said much the same thing, but to be honest, the closest thing to religion in WoT is the Dark Side. So it may be that's why he thought of it as a temple. Though it's still not clear what he's referring to. The Shadowspawn forts? Weren't they past the forts at that point? And hadn't they moved the command center into some random building? I can't recall; I will have to read up on it again. I've only managed to read TOM all the way through once.

[Terez]

I just asked him on Twitter. He might possibly answer. But now I'm wondering if this 'temple' business might have anything to do specifically with the reactions of Torkumen and his wife. I have always assumed it was due to the channeling itself, but there is quite a bit of precedent in the books for crazy rituals and sacrifices and strict consequences for failure. That goes back as early as Fain in TEOTW, when Moiraine questions him: "Fain abased himself and performed rites that would strike you deaf to hear the half of them, binding himself even more tightly to the Dark One." And as recently as Verin, and her talk of 'distinctive' oaths.