Fain, Shadar Logoth

[Heists]

Hi so I recently finished the series (or what there is so far). I have a a couple questions regarding it that have bugged me for a while. I have scoured forums but so far have not found anything too useful.

 

First off, Fain comes into the story very early and slowly loses importance. I never understood him since he starts a DF and becomes more? He is diffent the the forsaken but on a similair level. He is connected to Shadar Logoth and draws power from it?

 

Also what does Rand do to Logoth to cleanse the taint? A large amount of the OP was used but i always thought of Logoth as a seperate evil. Unless any evil is connected to the DO?

 

I apologize if this is the wrong thing to post on a new thread.. or if the answers are obvious. I loved the books and cant wait for the last!

[UncleButcher1980]

Hi so I recently finished the series (or what there is so far). I have a a couple questions regarding it that have bugged me for a while. I have scoured forums but so far have not found anything too useful.

 

First off, Fain comes into the story very early and slowly loses importance. I never understood him since he starts a DF and becomes more? He is diffent the the forsaken but on a similair level. He is connected to Shadar Logoth and draws power from it?

 

Also what does Rand do to Logoth to cleanse the taint? A large amount of the OP was used but i always thought of Logoth as a seperate evil. Unless any evil is connected to the DO?

 

I apologize if this is the wrong thing to post on a new thread.. or if the answers are obvious. I loved the books and cant wait for the last!

 

 

A few RJ and BS quotes on this.

 

 

Netherlands tour April 2001, Leiden - Aan'allein reporting

 

Emma: Can you give some more details on how the taint was cleansed? I was sort of confused reading the book.

 

RJ: You don't think it's obvious? Err, let's see. You have.. You're using both repulsion and attraction of opposites here. Repulsion of things that are opposite and repulsion of things that are the same. The Taint upon [saidin] as versus the conduit, which is made of saidar through which the saidin passes. The saidin and saidar, as men and women, are in many ways opposite. It repels one another. It is safe to make this conduit of saidar between saidin and Shadar Logoth, because there can be no mixing. As the eh.. as [saidin] passes through, as the taint passes through, the saidar actually repels it, pushes it away from [saidin]..., alright? Now, you have a taint on... the eh Source, the male half of the Source, you have the taint on Shadar Logoth. They're not the same, yet they are. The taint on Shadar Logoth did not come from the Dark One. The taint was created by humans, who believed that they must do whatever was necessary, anything that was necessary to defeat the Shadow. And because they would accept no limits to what they would do, to what could be done, to what needed to be done, they created their own destruction. Their evil is, or was, as great as that of the Dark One, but diametrically opposite. It is an evil created for the best of intentions, created for good intentions. So it is the opposite. So, this attraction created the conduit begins to pull the taint from [saidin] to siphon it off. Remember, it's always been described it's not at mixed all through [saidin], it is like a thin skin of rancidness, think of a thin skin of rancid oil floating on a pond, and if you get through it, you've got clean water, but you can't get through it without putting your hand in that oil. You're getting it on your hand... To attract one another because they are opposites, but because even being opposite, they have gone far enough around the circle, they act to destroy one another. You see, it's not opposites along a straight line. We're actually talking opposites along a circle. Continuing the motif of the Wheel of Time, if you will. So you've got two things that are both opposites and the same. That will both attract one another and negate one another. Do you understand better now?

 

Emma: Yes, thank you.

 

RJ: Oh, and one last point: It's all imaginary my dear...

 

A Crown of Swords book tour 9 October 1996, Dunwoody, GA - Erica Sadun reporting

 

Q: What is Fain?

 

RJ: Mordeth + person. Mordeth is a human-made evil. The black wind gets along with Mordeth because of professional courtesy. Fain is anti-Forsaken as well as anti-Rand. He has a lot of skills and abilities outside of channeling. He can not channel.

 

TOR Questions of the Week, August 2004-January 2005

 

Week 10 Question: Now that Shadar Logoth is gone, (cool way to get rid of it by the way), has the evil power in Padan Fain/Mordeth/the Ruby Dagger decreased any? Has it driven him even more insane? Or since the next book is called the Knife of Dreams, will all these questions be answered in it?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The evil power in Padan Fain has neither decreased nor increased, nor has that in the dagger. The corruption in him was partly caused by the taint on Shadar Logoth, but it didn't constitute a real connection to the city. Remember that it was because he was Padan Fain, the Hound of the Shadow, that he was able to leave Shadar Logoth in his new condition after he merged with/absorbed Mordeth. (By the way, any other artifacts that might be lying around from Shadar Logoth would have the same long-term corrupting effect as the dagger. Fortunately, or unfortunately, any such thing would need to be metal or stone. The wood and fabric had decayed. It wouldn't have been pleasant to get a splinter from, say, a chair from Shadar Logoth.)The destruction of Shadar Logoth has not driven Fain any more insane. I'm not certain he'd be able to function at all if he were any madder than he already is. But being insane doesn't make him any less dangerous, only less predictable. He no longer responds to situations or events in any sort of sane, logical manner. His abiding concerns are hatred of Rand al'Thor (and to a lesser degree Mat and Perrin) because he blames them for what the Dark One did to him in order to turn him into the Shadow's Hound, and hatred for the Dark One because of what the Dark One did to him. He goes after Rand because Rand is the easiest target in his mind, but if he can take a swipe at the Dark One or the Dark One's minions in some way that he felt would cause real harm, he'd leap at it.

 

Driving Mr. Sanderson (from Half Moon Bay to San Jose), 21 November 2009 - Matt Hatch reporting

 

Matt: Ok. You mentioned that Mordeth was a man that had "power". You are reported as saying that his power was that "which he got by seeking out all of the evil things that weren’t related to the Shadow"…

 

Brandon: He was seeking things that were related to the Shadow. I think that that might be a misquote. He was looking into the power of the Shadow in order to defeat it, was his goal. He was looking into everything. He was looking into things that were not necessarily related to the Dark One as well. He was looking for everything that he could get.

 

Matt: Previous to him arriving to Aridhol?

 

Brandon: Yeah.

 

Matt: Before he went to the king and became the counselor, Mordeth was this guy that went around searching for power?

 

Brandon: Yeah, he wanted to defeat the Dark One and he felt that he could find other ways to do it. He originally was good. He did not…he wasn’t this terrible person to begin with, but he was looking to defeat the Dark One, to find a way to defeat the Shadow. And he looked into a lot of things he shouldn’t have looked into. There are evils that are not necessarily directly related to the Dark One, though everything evil kind of has…just as there are goods that are not related necessarily to the One Power…we are talking much as Perrin runs with wolves. This is a thing older than…there are other evil things that are old in a similar way.

 

Matt: Is the assumption then that he found one of these?

 

Brandon: He did.

 

Matt: He found one or multiple?Brandon: He found many things of darkness. There is one in specific that is driving him, but he knew too much. He found things he should not have gotten into and that is what turned him into…when he got there he was already corrupt. He still thought he was doing a good work. He still thought, 'We are going to raise this kingdom up and it is going to become this bastion against the Shadow', but he was already by then corrupted.

 

Matt: Is this same corrupting influence what corrupts everyone through the dagger itself?

 

Brandon: Yeah. Through him, yes. And even through his presence.

 

Matt: I heard you answer a question last night, which sounded interesting. Someone asked about Padan Fain and Elaida...

 

Brandon: A lot of people don’t remember that they met.

 

Matt: So, his influence...how long, for example…wasn’t Egwene exposed to Padan Fain? Are there still effects that Egwene has on people because of him?

 

Brandon: Remember the idea that people have, generally, a choice. There are ways to turn people to the Shadow against their will, but when that happens the person is no longer the [same] person. What is happening with Padan Fain is, natural tendencies can be exacerbated or they can be fought off...

 

Matt: ...so Elaida’s paranoia fed that? With someone like Egwene, she might have fought it off, so it’s not going to be…

 

Brandon: ...right. exactly, or someone like Rand who continues to fight it off. He has become very paranoid. And the wound in his side, certainly someone could make the connection that that might have an influence. I won’t say for certain but…

 

Matt: ...so, the suggestion is, not only does he have the taint, which is negatively influencing him, or influencing him in such ways that might bring on paranoia; there is this accentuation of it because of Fain…

 

Brandon: ...this corruption…I mean that wound and the dagger…

 

Matt: ...that is another source…

 

Brandon: Mat managed to fight it off pretty much completely; well, not completely, but we don’t see Mat running around paranoid anymore. Elaida gave it something to feed upon, and it was very, very small and subtle with Elaida, but certainly that was an influence.

 

Matt: Ok. Is Mordeth’s power, this evil power, comparable to the One Power and True Power? Is it a power that can be woven?

 

Brandon: No, it’s more something along the lines of Perrin’s wolf power, something more natural. You couldn’t weave Mordeth.

 

Matt: Ok, so it’s more of a natural…

 

Brandon: ...it’s more of a natural [thing], though it is unnatural. It’s an unnatural natural thing.

 

Matt: ...because Jordan was really particular about…he tried to have a logic-based system as it pertained to the One Power. Is this power more supernatural in this sense than it is based on physics?

 

Brandon: Let’s say more instinctual, alright?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Brandon: Let’s say more instinctual, alright?

 

Mordeth was a fanatic. To him eradicating the DO justified any means. He was the farthest logical extreme outcome of, "The end justifies the means."

 

The means he used ultimately made him the DO's exact complement. The taint he left on Shadar Logoth the exact opposite to the taint the DO left on sai'din.

 

My guess is that the little that remains human in Fain is all that keeps him from spontaneously self-destructing from the collision of the two evils that comprise the rest of him.